While advances in solar technology will certainly help ameliorate the decline, I don't think it is reasonable to assume they will be able to aid much in ameliorating nation-level collapse.

On one hand, no matter what the technology, it seems like it is all relatively technically complex, either in design, fabrication, construction, or all three. The argument that we have yet to build a silicon mine that is run on solar only is not totally relevant (as diesel will be around for a long enough while to be of use), but it points out the energetic difficulties that such a technology requires.

Coal or oil or NG are removed from the user by only a few steps (wood is even closer, but less energy dense). Solar, on the other hand, requires batteries, silicon or other high-technology receptors and then utilizes a low density source.

I think the IEA forecast, perhaps not percentage wise (because they don't account for the declining oil as we might) but certainly quantity wise, might be too optomistic. Who is going to want to invest in expensive solar panels if they don't have a job? Conversely what government will want to invest in expensive solar when it can just burn coal/wood? (Both the US and China fall into this later category.)

And then there's the problem of scalability. How fast can we scale this technology? Especially considering it will likely be in the absence of global, if not national, governmental support.

Until some eMergy analysis gets down, I think the jury's still out. But I'd still put solar on my roof now (if I owned my roof), just because it'll likely last me 20 years and that would be a bonus. Anything purchased in the cheap oil era that lasts even shortly into the post oil era will be a very very wise investment. It's like buying low and selling high.

I realize I also deflated the whole optomism thread. Seeing as we can't always be gloom and doom, I've included a link to an excerpt from "Home From Nowhere" by the (in)famous JH Kunstler. It's before he was really peak oil aware and is titled "What I Live For." I've reprinted it for the course I'm teaching at college, "Peak Oil: crisis and catalyst for a sustainable future." Perhaps a guest post on the nature of that course at some future date would be in order... editors?

http://www.kunstler.com/excerpt.html

DavidH says "On one hand, no matter what the technology, it seems like it is all relatively technically complex, either in design, fabrication, construction, or all three."

I can't speak knowledgably about solar or any of the alternatives to oil/ng. However, it seems to me that what they all have in common is a far greater dependence on high capital intensity and high tech. Therefore they depend on a complex and specialized infrastructure. But it seems to me that this is precisely what's going to be hard to maintain at a certain point down off peak.

Here I think there is a really big unknown: once the hydrocarbons are mostly used up, how much of our infrastructure that supports high tech and high capital intensity will be sustainable? I tend to believe, but can't come close to proving that we'll have to back some considerable way off the way we operate now. Shumacher's "small is beautiful" in some form may come into it's own.

The powers-that-be strongly prefer the capital-intensive solutions and are quite hostile to the opposite. Maybe the most flagrant example is where some western owned water companies in third world countries have forbid people to collect rain water.

Besides the capital intensity, what of the energy intensity?

There's going to be a certain amount of mining minerals for solar panels, semiconductors, etc., if we try to ramp it up to commercial scale. And last I checked, nobody had invented electric-powered bulldozers, trenchers, trucks, scoops, etc.

And consider the other end of the equation as well. Who can afford individualized solar collection equipment? Certainly there is a certain portion of the planet that could manage, but what about the rest? Do we become a planet where the top 5% create and manage their own electricity generation and the rest have no hope to do so? And can we expect that they will just sit by and watch those that continue to live the "powered lifestyle"?
Exactly. A world of electricity elitism like that would separate the rich-poor gap even more than today.
Very good point.
There are Gaussian distribution curves as to how many people have economic access to the better, more efficient technologies and who they are in the scheme of things.

Consider how many people own hybrids (i.e. Priuses) versus how many people own oil burning, broken down jalopies and where they fit in the income and population distribution curves.

My guess is that there way more poor people driving low mileage (low MPG) wrecks than there are movie stars strutting their Prestige Priuses around town.

And the low MPG drivers are usually also the low wage earners who have to drive that many more miles from outlying rural areas to get to work in the high-rent town centers.

Arguably, rather than tax deductions for Priuses, government-funded discounts for the poorest people to buy newer cars would do much more to reduce gasoline consumption in our country. Given that many of these cars are also burning major amounts of motor oil through bad valves and/or rings, it would make an even greater difference in air quality, especially in metropolitan areas.

Of course, and running the risk of sounding like I'm stereotyping, getting urban minorities to sell big boats isn't going to happen very easily.

Until some eMergy analysis gets down,

Odum liked tacking the 'how much knowledge is embedded in this product' and as such, PV to electrical power will always be expensive eMergy-wise.

If one applies a 'time value' to electric power, the conversion of a photon to electrical power via PV is the shortest.   Wind/Hydro is shorter photon->power conversion than plant->oil/alcohol->power and that is shorter than wood->power or coal/oil-> power.   eMergy has an ability to track time-value of a photon, but I've not seen a model of it.  

And last I checked, nobody had invented electric-powered bulldozers, trenchers, trucks, scoops, etc.

Check again.  In Milwaukee WI, the earthmoving machines made there are electric.

PV makes low voltage DC, usefull only for direct use (or battery storage).  A significant extra step is required to make this power generally useful, power electronics to convert it.

Wind makes medium voltage and hydro high voltage AC electricity, easily useful doing most everything electricity is used for (convert to medium voltage DC for aluminum smelting, Urban Rail (freight rail can use up to 50 kV AC) and limited other applications.

Strung together PV panels produce high DC voltage. On my system five panels in each string give 350V. The inverter cost only 5% of the system cost. On the other hand batteries sufficient to smooth out even a week's supply cost nearly as much as the rest of the supply and last only a few years.
As long as total PV power is only a few percent of grid power and you can get your supplier to allow you to fit inport and export meters and don't put too great a differential on the two prices grid connection is a far better idea.
PV makes low voltage DC, usefull only for direct use (or battery storage).

Do you have a point here?  

A significant extra step is required to make this power generally useful, power electronics to convert it.

Oh, well to apply your own logic, the power in the home should be 12VDC or even 1.5 VDC.   Because some of man's most usful creations is TTL and CMOS logic.   If you plug a IC into 120 VAC, it goes poof!   A significant extra step is needed to convert 120VAC down to 12VDC, 5VDC, 3.3 VDC and other very low  DC voltages.

A cheap and easy step because efficiency is not an issue.

I can feel the heat coming from the converter on my feet right now.  My guess is <$5 wholesale.

OTOH, when efficiency matters, it costs.  Such as PV > Medium voltage AC.

A cheap and easy step because efficiency is not an issue.  I can feel the heat coming from the converter on my feet right now.

What about the heat from the step down transformer on the pole/neighborhood substation?    What about the 20-50% line loss (depending on who you want to quote)?

If you are willing to accept cheap lossy transformers at your feet, why oppose solar PV that MIGHT need a conversion step?

20% line loss ?

WAY over the US average.  The most often quote is 10% transmission & transforming loss.

Since computers do not run on the EXACT DC voltage that PV modules produce and because DC voltage cannot be transformed (i.e changed) without going first to AC (i.e. 12 V DC > 120 V AC > 5 V DC), any PV energy calculation has to include the costs (energy & capital) to convert to useable AC power.

The only exception that I can think of is direct feeding of series wired PV to Urban Rail (600 V DC to 1000 V DC depending upon system).  PV could be used as supplemental power in that way.  Also, wire house for 12 V DC, use 12 V DC Sunfrost frig, 12 V DC light bulbs (including LEDS), 12 V DC small travel TV, car recharging for cell phone and 12 V DC lead acid batteries.  This would be in addition to regular 120 V AC power for other uses.

You have a point about line mounted transformers.  MUCH less efficient than larger units.  More efficient, more expensive, and somewhat larger residential transformers might reduce US electricity consumption by fairly close to 1%.

From Howard T. and Elisabeth Odum's book "Energy Basis for Man and Nature" 2nd edition 1981:
Capture of sunlight by solar collectors, solar voltaic cells, and concave mirrors that converge energy ... use so much embodied energy in their feedback compared to the light they capture that they are not net energy: most of their energy comes from the main economy and thus indirectly from fossil fuels.  As fuel prices rise the solar technological costs rise just as fast.  They will not become relatively more important as fuels run out.
Whether this was true on not in 1981 I don't know but it certainly is not true now as many studies have shown.
This
 is a study of one particular system that shows energy payback in 8 to 10 months.

Despite many very detailed studies that refuted this claim it  still circulates on the Internet. It would be good if another
trail does not originate from TOD  

Yeah, they try the same lies on nuclear power, too. Don't know why. It makes more sense to say that coal has negative energy payback when you consider global warming is going to flood the coastal plains and reduce agricultural, pastoral, and silvicultural production.
Then again, that much high fish productivity coastal waters will dramatically increase piscatorial production;)
And when Odum speaks of costs, this includes the brain-power that was used to make the PV panel.

Thusly under the Odum eMergy cost Model, the lowest cost tools are chipped rocks.

Feel free to show that your quote does NOT include 'brain costs'.

There are a few positives to solar; will they prevent a world collapse?  Who knows, but I subscribe to the "every little bit helps" worldview.... I can't find the link, but I recently saw that a new 64 MW solar facility had started construction out West.

Also, once a power source like solar is started up, it requires very little oil or other variable priced fuel to keep it going.  Granted - there have to be replacements, but compared to say a gas-fired generator, the input is much smaller.  Solar might be a great solution for home use during "the coming collapse."  Here in Atlanta, it is just about the only choice.  Timing may be everything - I am planning on buying a small system right before the oil price shocks makes the manufacturing costs start to increase.  I am also hoping for the blessed solar "technology" savior, maybe organic cells.  Lets see how well I am able to "time the market."

Also, comparing the costs and rewards of anything requires that everything be put in terms of its "Present Value."  To do otherwise would be comparing apples or oranges.  Many people avoid this and calculate energy production costs using only an "instantaneous" production cost.  However, volatility is very important because it relates to the "risk" that one has for a particular energy production method.  Leaving out this risk makes fossil fuel methods seem much more economical.  
The following is an example of a present value calculation that shows wind power as a much greater deal than fossil fuel methods when the risk is considered:
http://www.earthscan.co.uk/news/article/mps/UAN/71/v/3/sp/
And, one of the results of "Queuing Theory" is that when the supply of a resource becomes less than the demand (Peak Oil), then the output (price) becomes highly volatile.
In other words, we should expect significant economic impacts from the upcoming price volatility of oil, in addition to the high average cost.  My little (future) home solar power system may help my family some.

You are not the only one in Georgia planning on trying to time the market on a home PV system! ^_^
I might note that not all solar power generation requires PV (and therefore silicon).

The Germans are using all PV because of the latitiude they are at but sunnier locales can use some relatively low tech solutions (basically focussing the sun's rays to generate steam using reflectors - whcih scales up surprisingly well).

See this article for example on concentrated solar power projects in Nevada (and there are even bigger Stirling engine based plants planned for southern California):

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=43336

Plus a lot of work is being done on thin film polymers and semiconductor alloys that are much more efficient at generating power than current PV technology. See this South African article for an example of one of these:

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=116&art_id=vn20060211110132138C184427

In a decade's time every sun facing surface in the developed world will be covered in some sort of power generating device.

I suspect a country with plenty of sun, coastline and wind can run a reasonable economy using renewables, some fossil fuels (or nuclear). But you want to be driving a plug in hybrid rather than an SUV...

In a decade's time every sun facing surface in the developed world will be covered in some sort of power generating device.

Sorry, can't see it.  You're talking trillions of dollars in infrastructure, from component factories to construction companies to the actual power plants themselves, none of which exists now.  And all it will take is one recession for all the plans to be shitcanned.  

Of course, you can say the same thing about a nuclear solution.

As I pointed out in a previous post, the greatest advance in photovoltaic generation recently has been multi-junction cells in concentrator systems (see here, here and here  ) The record of 39% efficiency at a concentration factor of 236 suns means that although the cells are made from exotic materials (in this case a triple junction Gallium Indium Phosphide/Gallium (Indium) Arsenide/ Germanium system) they are used as tiny 2-3mm cells spaced out over a heat spreader, each under its own plastic concentrator optics and occupying only a fraction of a percent of the solar collecting area.

Even at a cost per unit area of cell several times that of silicon, this very sparse use of semiconductor means the cell cost of a system can be much lower. The system does require a tracker but the same is true of the Stirling engine system that has similar efficiencies and again, like the Sterling engine system, it needs a site with a lot of direct sunshine as it has almost no output in diffuse sunlight.

Concentrator systems of 100kW have been builtand   this year a 5MW system is due for installation in Australia and a 10MW system in Spain. Costs are estimated to be about 3$/W installed power and have better chances of falling than non-concentrator systems.

However it must be recognised that  these levels are tiny compared to the gap we are going to fill if oil peaks soon and falls fast. The overwhelming problem with solar and other alternatives like wind, wave and tide when considered for use as a major part of the electrical generating system is intermittency.

As long as the contribution is 10% or less of grid power little extra reserve needs to be added to allow for the intermittency. In places like here in the UK  that have good resources of wind, wave and tide and moderate solar input it has been calculated that a set of well diversified (in type and location) sources could provide up to 30% with little extra reserve. A similar study in Germany set a limit of 15%.

Past these levels we need to consider mass energy storage and the candidates are few. Pumped storage works but the number of suitable sites is few; better in the US than in the UK but still few. Compressed air storage as used in Huntdorf in Germany do not have a very high round trip efficiencies and requires suitable underground structures like salt domes that can be evacuated. Batteries on the scale of power station replacement are enormously expensive.

Most energy storage systems that have been built for grid use are for storage over the daily cycle and few have been built relative to the total energy generated largely for economic reasons. For solar use the storage would have to be over at least monthly periods and for places like the UK where only 20% of the annual solar energy is available in the winter 6 months but 55% of the electricity is consumed, that storage would need to be able to store a fair proportion of the annual generation.

Consider some rough figures for power station replacement:-

A 1GW rated fossil fuel plant with 60% availability will generate about 5300GWhr of energy a year
A tracking solar array on a good site will have about 15% availability averaged over the year and therefore will need to be rated at about 4GW to produce the same energy.
At 1kW/m² peak solar input and 30% system efficiency it will need 13.3 million m² of solar panel. Say one million 13.3m² tracking systems spread out at 5m spacings to avoid shadowing over a 5km x 5km south facing (in northern hemisphere) slope. There are such sites in the sparse areas of the US but few in crowded Europe and none in the UK.

If you do not have fossil fuelled reserve capacity and you are not going to rely on diversity between alternative sources you may well need to be able to store up to a third of your annual power production. If the round trip efficiency of your storage is about 75% you will have to add perhaps another 8% capacity to make up the loss. Throw in say another 80,000 trackers.

For pumped storage you will need store 1970GWhr of potential energy in the top pond to produce 1750GWhr on recovery allowing 12% loss on the down trip. That is 2.8 billion cubic metres of water (10km x 10km x 28m average depth) 250m up from the bottom pond. There are not many sites that you could built such a system.

Alternatively you could use 3.7 billion standard 40Ahr car batteries.

When you have considered the enormity of these figures consider that China is adding the equivalent of more than one new 1GW coal fired power station every week.

I am astounded at your "may well need to be able to store up to a third of your annual power production" figure.

If there is a major seasonal variation in wind, then size the system according to production & demand in the "off peak" periods, perhaps with some fossil fuel in reserve.

The modeling is complex and varies with locale, but storing 1/3 of a years production is "off the wall" large IMHO.  The basic generation matched with one day to two weeks in storage should be the range of options in most cases.

Does the UK have massive gales all winter long and then dead calm with an occasional gentle breeze for 8 months of the year ?

And pumped storage can be a mix of different sizes and capacities.  Large storage capacities with moderate generation MW can be created with long tunnels between two reserviors or a lake & a storage reservior 10 or more km apart.  Wales and Scotland should abound with some possibilities.

You mentioned tidal, which is an interesting source.  It produces power every 25 hours (forgot to the minute) and it's production peak slowly moves around the clock over 28 days.  A useful addition to a renewable grid where available.  And requiring only 24 or so hours of storage.

Having read the commentsin this thread to date on solar and agreeing with just about ALL of them (in context), some comments for all to puzzle on.

Yes, solar is unlimited in concept but very limited in reality for energy generation.

No, solar can not replace our existing energy usage or wants.

The big point however is that no energy solution will replace fossil fuels.  Not even nuclear IMO will give us all the energy, in all the forms, that we are used to now.

What we have to focus on first is How efficient can we use energy?  Conservation first, replacement of fossil fuels second.

Everybody wants to run conventional appliances and transportation using solar as a replacement.  This as many posters show mathematically is not going to work.  What we need to do ASAP is reduce energy consuption everywhere.  Then we will not need as much energy to do the same tasks and can use alternate energy sources (which are much less energy dense) instead of fossil fuel.

Search the internet for how to build or retro fit a house to solar and wind energy.  The first thing they recommend is installing the highest efficiency refrigerator, stoves, lights, water heaters, HVAC, etc.  Reduce consumption first.  At that point you need less storage on site, meaning fewer batteries, waterfalls, flywheels, etc.  With less daily consumption you also need less total generating capacity.  Lower Capital cost for solar cells and wind turbines.  When you need less generating capacity per hour or day there is a much better chance of having at least maintenance energy from solar and wind even when conditions are not optimal.

What I see as the number one problem today is that fossil fuel is still way too abundant and cheap.  We are not (yet) driving for the maximum energy efficiency in most peoples houses or daily lives.  

Only a coordinated program of energy reduction (conservation) dovetailed with solar energy (renewable production)makes any sense.  I see this as critical for transportation as well as creature comforts at home and work.  We currently waste as much energy as we use.  

It is a false premise to say we can't meet our energy needs using renewables, plus nuclear, plus very, very limited fossil fuels.  The reason it is a false premise is that we really don't have a good handle on what the minimum energy usage we need to maintain our society. (Not have all we want, but just meet ours needs and have some extra available from time to time).  We only know what the energy usage is required to maintain the existing system.  An energy replacement plan without an energy consumption plan will not work, as many posters have shown thermodynamically on TOD.  

The falacy of the Bush administration's energy plan (and most governments plans) is that it is only energy replacement.  It needs to be equally energy reduction, via a drive for efficiency and some total elimination.

Solar can replace all conventional fossil fuels. We know how to store power by electrolysing water for hydrogen and making methanol till we burn it in cars or trains or gas turbines. It's only the cost that is higher because oil is cheap. Well, it's cheap now.
If we have to make oil out of oil shale kerogen, then solar methanol starts looking better.
As to the complexity and tech-intensity of solar technologies, I think this discussion regularly gets lost in the assumption that 'Solar' is essentially only Photovoltaics.  One, or two really, of the most direct ways we can cut into our Oil consumption is with solar heating.  Solar air and water heaters.  Though not as magical and mystical as solar electric, they can be built from materials close to anyone's home, and they will cut into the gas or heating fuel consumed by that home more quickly than PV, and will achieve payback and EROEI (Energy Payback) faster, too.

I think when the direction of Oil and Gas gets more broadly accepted, and the prices concur, that these simplest ways of garnering some free heat will blossom with both commercial offerings AND do-it-yourself projects.  

Whether or not my Prophesying has any merit, I know that my house is pumping through about 7 gallons of No.2 Oil a day, for three dwellings, and that I have enough roof-area to curtail a great deal of it, if I can apply all the glass I've collected towards some 'technology' that's far simpler to understand than a basic car tune-up.

In acknowledgement of the Thanksgiving prediction, I bought my first, modest (40w) PV panel, charge controller and some batteries last December.  Appropriately, my purchase was delayed by about the same amount as the Prediction was recently adjusted.   It's enough to run a few lights here and there, maybe the Laptop.. but I really wanted to mainly have one decent panel in my possession in case a bigger hiccup in energy supplies triggered the predictable spike in PV prices and availability that I assume we'll see.  PV won't save us, and it won't replace what we use today for power, but we'll have the chance to really evaluate what needs to be done with electricity, and what can work with other energies.  I'm in Maine, why do I and ALL my neighbors in the Northern 60% of this Country have a Refrigerator running a compressor all winter?  If it's cold enough out, a better design would only be using a small sensor circuit and a heat exchanger to the outside.  Most of this stuff is NOT high tech. Just takes some thought.. and a bunch of motivation.  Aha! There's the energy shortage!  

Thanks, sir, for making the remarks I was about to. I just walked around my old farmhouse, looking at where I had the best shot at the sun, and how much area I had to play with.  I discovered ( an awful lot late for somebody who's supposed to be aware!) that I have PLENTY of sun hitting even in the winter gloom to replace the 10kW of wood I am burning these days ( with some added insulation to help the sun).  And, I have a great place to put my favorite toy of the moment- a dish stirling that pumps air over a turbine.  Sounds a bit nutty, but is very cheap relative to PV or the usual stirling since it  is just an oscillator and has no crank, bearings or lube oil to gum things up, and the turbine and alternator are off-the-shelf.

I'll let you know how it works out. Please note that this little sport is all my own money and time so I can be just as big a fool as I wish with no justified complaints from you over-taxed taxpayers or grim nordic scoffers.

PS Yes I know the solar concentrator won't work in the gloom, but the stove does and the same stirling worksjust  fine on it.