116 comments on Sunday's Dilbert (or, talk about surreal...)
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I do see their reasoning in that they find themselves having to struggle more to survive yet see others growing fat and consuming with abandon. It doesn't smell right to them, nor does it to me.
They crystallise that onto religion. OK, I have a problem with that, I think it bloody silly, but maybe that's my downer on monotheisms - they seem to lend themselves to such silliness.
Maybe this perceived disrespect for Islam is a proxy for our more fundamental disrespect for them as humans.
When humanity has the possibility and perhaps necessity to coalesce into a powerful wholeness, what I see is the accelerating opposite.
When asked: "But you depicted Muhammad with a bomb in his turban, armed with a knife and with a broken halo that resembled satanic horns."
Flemming replied: The cartoon with horns didn't arouse special criticism; it was the other two. The one with the bomb in his turban doesn't say, "All Muslims are terrorists," but says, "Some people have taken Islam hostage to permit terrorist and extremist acts." These cartoons do not treat Muslims in any other way than we treat other citizens in this country. By treating them as equals, we are saying, "You are equal."
...
Holocaust Cartoons
On 8 February 2006, Flemming Rose said in interviews with CNN and TV 2 that Jyllands-Posten planned to reprint satirical cartoons depicting the Holocaust that the Iranian newspaper Hamshahri planned to publish. He told CNN "My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with that Iranian newspaper Hamshahri, and we would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them". Later that day the paper's editor-in-chief said that Jyllands-posten under no circumstances would publish the Holocaust cartoons. [1] and Flemming Rose later said that "he had made a mistake".[2] [3]. The next day Carsten Juste, the editor-in-chief of Jyllands-Posten, stated that Flemming Rose was on indefinite leave.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming_Rose
Flemming Rose, cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, who has "has clear ties to the Zionist Neo-Cons." Rose "traveled to Philadelphia in October 2004 to visit Daniel Pipes, the Neo-Con ideologue who says the only path to Middle East peace will come through a total Israeli military victory.
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=211
Secondly, let us examine the venue - a newspaper that today describes itself as "liberal" in the classical sense, but yesterday openly supported fascism - and particularly the man most responsible for starting this ruckus: Flemming Rose, the "cultural editor" of Jyllands-Posten, who commissioned the cartoons and now is at the center of a rapidly-escalating controversy.
The Iranians have come up with a novel answer to Rose and his fellow provocateurs: they have announced a contest for cartoonists to make light of the Holocaust.
"'It will be an international cartoon contest about the Holocaust,' said Farid Mortazavi, the graphics editor for Hamshahri newspaper - which is published by Teheran's conservative municipality. He said the plan was to turn the tables on the assertion that newspapers can print offensive material in the name of freedom of expression. 'The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons,' he said."
Of course, the publication of such cartoons would be illegal in most states of the European Union, as well as Canada, and the publishers, as well as the artists, would probably be thrown in jail and forced to issue a groveling apology. Rose is supposedly against any religion demanding "special treatment," but apparently there is at least one exception.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8512
The hypocrisy is just too transparent:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060220/ap_on_re_eu/austria_holocaust_denial
I share your sentiments not Irvings.
My reason for posting the link was to show that the "Freedom of the Press" is routinely censored either by law or voluntarily; for reasons of decorum, politics, historic legacy or even domestic tranquility.
To say this cartoon episode is an exercise in freedom is nonsense. It's at least profiteering and possibly incitement. On all sides!
Would any main stream publication in America reprint scurilous cartoons -- printed in Denmark -- of say, Martin Luther King and purport to be acting in solidarity with press freedoms?
Back in the 30s it was another branch of the semitic family and another religion that was demonized. It too was demonized to a purpose, it was too was funded. It's so easy to see something after it has happened, so hard to see it while it is happening. But what is happening right now is a replay, mutatis mutandis.
Back in those days it was easy to find some unsavory financier or slumlord or whatever who happened to be Jewish and put the spotlight on that. Now it's easy to put the spotlight on extreme reactions to provocations to make a whole group seem humorless or worse.
It's completely wrong to fall for this created division. We are heading ever deeper into an endless war that has absolutely nothing to do with a war of civilizations, nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with anything but oil/gas, money, and hegemony. These incitements, these provocations are an absolutely integral part of the military and diplomatic campaigns that are unfolding in front of our very eyes. To think otherwise is very naive.
Tens, if not hundreds, of books have been written about the Holocaust, the anti-semitism that preceded it, and so forth. I've read many during my life, many on Hitler Germany. But I never really understood until now. It takes a great of money and effort to get people to hate other people, people they have no or little knowledge of, but who are no different from themselves, who just want to live, eat, reproduce, make jokes, etc.
The end result is that we are hardened to the fate of those who are bombed, detained, tortured, and killed. The end result is that we say, better them than me. The end result is we find outselves in the predicament Pastor Niemoller found himself in.
It is not only their religion that was insulted. You see in those countries, the "Islamic" Republics, there is no distinction between religion and state, nor is there any distinction between your personal life and religion. Its all in one and one and the same and all things together. It cannot be separated. You insult one and you insult them all. Solidly and wholely melded together. There is no distinction between what the law says and what the Koran say. There is no difference between what you think and what the Koran says, and they don't understand you no matter how many times you tell them. Its one, the same and all things together. You can't even speak of the concept of having anything different.
The number of times you hear something in language as it is spoken every day, is a direct indicator of the function that the idea of the word represents to the culture. How many times do Muslims say, "God willing"? or "if God wants", or "thanks to God". I'd give you a WAG of about 30-40 times each day. They say that every time, yes EVERY time they refer to an event that may happen in the future, or any possible event that they do not have direct control over. When they say, "it might rain today" it is followed by "God Willing". Anything. To me even saying it that many times is amazing, never mind actually believing it. How many times did you hear that phrase today in your office? And IMHO, when a Muslim tells you, or says this, he means exactly what it/he implies and he/she believes it. Really, I can't possibly tell you how different the concept and influence god has between them and "us". Now, I still don't understand the concept of jihad, and suicide bombing that goes with it, and a number of other things, so I'm not saying its all so fantastic... but I will say, we in the west don't "Get IT". When I say, "I'm going to cross the street", I don't say "God willing" at the end of it. And when I think you will read this, I don't say "God willing" either. If somebody drew the same cartoon with Jesus Christ, well I'd use my sense of humor, as would 850 million other people. He just doesn't have any influence on me anymore. Do you understand what I'm "getting at"? Well, I guess its just different. Get to know a moderate but devoute Muslim. If they live in the west, they're moderate, no matter what they say or think. You'll notice something different about them. Maybe you'll like whatever that difference is and you'll begin to understand a little more about Muslims and their religion. I don't mean to sound so NUTS by writing such a long response to such a short comment, but for some reason, I couldn't help myself. A sense of humor just has no relavence in this case. Should I post or not????... maybe... yes.
If such people then are willing to argue and fight for keeping that stupid religious nonsens out of their lives it could get tense. But its worth it, freedom of religion is very important and most important of all is to be able to choose to be free from religion.
"The Clintons started the mess"
I cannot even begin to fathom such historically ignorant statements. The present situation is the result of hundreds of years of history, but the animosities we see today stem mostly from Western actions of the 20th century.
Yeah, Bill never should have talked the British into invading Iraq in the early 1900's, and if he had only refrained from supporting the establishment of Israel, the sabotaging of the elected Iranian government, not had the CIA pay that punk Saddam to assassinate the Iraqi leadership, not meddle with the Iraq/Iran war, etc. Seriously, how can you post such nonsense on a public forum?
Yes, it will be hard to put the genie back in the bottle. So what the hell, they hate us now, lets just kill `em all.
;) :-((
Today there are problems wherever large Muslim minorities live: Kashmir, southern Thailand, southern Phillipines. Can you tell me why they Thai Buddhists, Indian Hindus and Christian Philipinos?
To see the real face of Islam go to: http://www.faithfreedom.org, a website created by an Iranian ex-Muslim named Ali Sina.
So even if there was no Israel, and even if there was no history of Western colonialism, we would have religious wars anayway.
Personally, I have no hope of ever reaching an accomodation with Muslims. I think this problem will solve itself in 30 years when the middle-eastern nations no longer have oil to export. Then their societies will collapse and they will destroy each other.
Funny, I get the feeling they think the same about us.
Anyway, the average person in the Islamic world isn't aware of peak oil. They are too busy debating whether it is permissible for men to shave their facial hair and what kind of clothes are needed to protect woman's modesty. And ofcourse, whenever something bad happens it is a "Zionist Conspiracy" :-)
Have you see that little quote that comes up in the upper right corner of this site?
They know about peak oil, and it just adds to their resentment. The Islamic radicals who are trying to overthrow the House of Saud specifically talk about peak oil, and how Saudi Arabia should not sell a precious, limited resource so cheaply.
Latin America is no different from the rest of the developing world. Its all going to remain FUBAR until the 5% of the people that own 95% of the countries down there start redistributing their wealth. One thing I've noted is that they are never gonna' do it voluntarily. Its not a pretty picture if you or your business interests, or your government leaders are connected into that 5%, but anything other than massive wealth distribution guarantees instability for eternity. Do you know that 28 families own 96% of Mexico? That 5 families own 88% of Colombia. How can that be stable? That's why Colombia has national police (read "army") guard every 5 miles along the only 2 major highways they have. The fact is that I left Venezuela when Chavez was the rising star. I knew he was going to go sky high, because even the Venezuelan engineers I was working with had to farm crops and build their own houses in their spare time to get by on their salaries. And they were the very lucky ones. No public institution other than PDVSA and MARAVEN was functioning, especially the legal system. Anybody with a buck could buy off anybody who didn't have one, or wanted another one. If you had to go to the hospital, you had to bring your own bandaids and get somebody to bring you your medicine and food from the outside. Nobody had anything they needed except gasoline at 15¢/gal. But the gasoline was better for you to drink than was most of the water. I wanted to stay there forever, but I knew his coming to power would not further my interests there at the time, as I just finished working on a Conoco-Maraven pipeline, so I skipped, but I can't say that he's not good for 95% of the Venezuelans. The other 5% will get used to it, or leave. At least Venezuela has some Cuban doctors and sports education now, and I'll bet they have a few bandaids now too. I hear he's working on land reformation and I hope that works. I think he's even trying to do it fairly, starting negotiating with some English Lord of all people that owns 300,000 HA (yes HA) or so and doesn't even live there. And I think gasoline is still about 20¢/gal or so, but not sure about that. But the people need cheap gas there. We can afford to finance it. They can't get fair credit. The word is that its getting better now such that even some ex-Maraven guy I worked with in Saudi thought it was time for him to go back. I'm still thinking about it now too (as ever). Spain is great, but South America... Puerto La Cruz and Barcelona are one of the nicest places you can find on this planet. Buy a ticket and check it out.
Go to Puerto la Cruz,
http://www.world66.com/southamerica/venezuela/puertolacruz
out to the Angel Falls
http://travelsense.igougo.com/photogallery/displayFeaturePhoto.asp?ID=141695
Canaima National Park
http://www.venezuelatuya.com/gransabana/canaima.htm
Cumana
http://www2.world66.com/southamerica/venezuela/cumana/gettingthere/lib/image/change?newimage=/southamerica/venezuela/cumana/gettingthere/cumana
I promise you that somewhere in the back of your head you'll think at least once before going back to Minnesota. You will definitely give up French women.
Now please excuse me.
<Sr. Presidente. Siga luchando por su gente! Hay muy pocos como ustd en esta mundo.>
This is a challenge. I maintain suyog was correct. Neither you nor Gets IT has replied regarding the issue at hand. Maybe it wasn't so important regarding the original point, but it is important now, for it regards one's grasp of reality.
The Ottoman Empire, from which today one finds Turkey, was founded by Central Asian invaders from the the general area of what is today is called "Turk"-ministan. All the Arabian arabs loosly semi-organized tribes fighting mostly individual battles against the Turkish Ottoman Empire and various rival factions amongst themselves until King Saud united several tribes and married as many women as he could possibly do to bond the tribes as solidly as he could. The Turks eventually left the area around WWI, only to be followed by our wonderful British and French friends, who promptly divided the area up into unstable districts. We still pay for their mistakes today. Lawerence of Arabia made his fame by actually uniting a small faction of a few of the western mideast Arab tribes for a very short time in an effore to fight "Ottoman oppression" during WWI, but we know he was just sucking in the Arabs to fight alongside the British against the German's Ottoman allies.
Today there are still rival factions amongst the many houses of Saud. Each tribe still retains its own power base and too much of its original independence in its traditional area of influence. It is not easy for a Saudi from Riyadh to live in Mekkah or the Asir Province. The Asiris don't like admitting that Sauds in Riyadh control that province to this day. This is the reason that there are so many Arabic states that have survived in the east all the Emerites city states, Qatar, Bahrain, Kewait, and the southern regions of Iraq to this day. The Empty Quarter made communication among the inland Arabic tribes impossible towards the southern coast.
The situation along the Med is a little different due to the more hospitible climate where it was not so difficult for outsiders to reach and Arab tribes were forces to unite from time to time to resist invaders, but the Turkish Ottoman Empire was more or less the masters of the area for several hundred years. Across the Sahara Desert, communication was difficult and only lose official relations between various Arabic nation states were maintained, until the Ottomans arrived, when some cohesion was reached.
Other than that, Moroccan "Berber" tribes, who IMHO are not Arabic, but are of Islam, invaded the Iberian Peninsula and held it longer than Spain and Portugal have had it 'till this day. They were finally thrown out in 1490 (?) only 2 years before Colon went to the USA.
TMALSS (to make a long story short.. ha. ha.) All the rest of the major battles of the area were fought by filthy diseased, cut-throat barbarian crusaders from Europe invading their long ago lost "Holy Lands".
Later, when the Ottomans were on their takeover bid for the world campaign, they reached the gates of Vienna, before being turned back. Turing that time there were hundreds of battles over several hundred years, but that was the Euros against the Ottomans...had nothing to do with Arabs.
So, that's the history of the mideast interactions with late western cultures as far as I ever needed to know about it and I lived there many years just fine with that limited amount of maybe wholely wrong information.
So if none of it is true, nothing I can do about it, or want to... so I'm dropping it.
My point was that Muslims (whether Turks or Arabs) have a long history of exterminating or persecuting other religions that predates western colonialism and crusades. Within the lifetime of Mohammed, non-Islamic religions were eliminated from Arabia (which includes S.A., Oman, Yemen, UAE).
So even if the crusades had not happened and even if there was no European imperialism and even if there was no state of Israel, religious conflict with Muslims was inevitable.
Do you agree or disagree?
As for the reference you so kindly supplied, I decided that, just as I do not take every word in the Christian Bible to be a litteral command and use my reasoning abilities to make certain "adjustments" in principles required for modern day applications, so should Muslims. I think the real danger to us all is being too "fundamental" to think for ourselves.
Times have changed much since when Mohammad began with the Quran, the Arabian Peninsula was a vastly different world than it was just a few hundred years later and who knows how his enemies actually treated his tribe at the time? Maybe drastic measures and biblical type commands of such severity was necessary to protect his tribe from them? Even today in many areas of the United States, the words you hear are "Shoot first and ask questions later". Is that really that much different than the words your reference to the Quran implies, when brought up to date to apply in modern times?
Basically, I think too much of anything does nobody any good. We should all learn tolerance and cooperation will get us much farther along than rabbid beliefs of one thing or another that forget all reason. So, no I don't tend to take these things so litterally that I see it as inevitable. We all just need to understand each other more as the world changes. The only thing I see as inevitable is change, death and taxes, so we'd better learn to deal with all of them very soon.
The history of Islam is full of blood right from the start.
India is a secular democracy with a large (second largest in the world after Indonesia) and growing Muslim minority. The president of India (a figurehead) is a Muslim; its Prime Minister is a Sikh. The leader of the ruling Congress party is a Christian of Italian origin.