The Oil Drum | And we thought Colorado had problems

109 comments on And we thought Colorado had problems

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Magnus Redin on February 22, 2006 - 2:34pm

Shameless PR: Build your ethanol plant in Sweden, we have almost unlimited fresh water, good logistics and plenty of electricity.

But shipping cost money and energy. :-/

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Leanan on February 22, 2006 - 2:57pm

But shipping cost money and energy.

Exactly. The idea behind building ethanol plants in North Dakota is to put them where the corn is.

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Magnus Redin on February 22, 2006 - 3:17pm

Will there be much corn in the future if the region do not have enough water for ethanol plants?

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Leanan on February 22, 2006 - 3:26pm

Ethanol needs a lot more water than corn.

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Don Sailorman on February 22, 2006 - 4:57pm

LeAnn,
That depends on where you grow the corn: In the irrigated Sacramento Valley and San Joaquin Valley of California much corn is grown with humongous quantities of highly subsidized water, obscene quantities of fertilizer, and enough pesticides to kill off a medium-size ethnic group. The yields are fantabulous.

By way of contrast, in God's Own Country, i.e. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, parts of Nebraska and some other places we get plenty of rainfall to grow corn without irrigation, though the quantities of artificial fertilizer and pesticides are huge, and the erosion of soil is not a negligible issue.

Like Sweden, Minnesota has abundant water. Indeed, a Swede will feel right at home in Minnesota, except that most of the Swedes I know speak better English than many of us do. Shucks, we even have Finnlander jokes and Norweigian jokes, just like in 'da Old Country. Yah, you bet.

As far as the Great Plains go: I say, give it back to the bison and the Native Americans--and quit draining the Oglalla Aquifer.

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TrueKaiser on February 22, 2006 - 6:04pm

"obscene quantities of fertilizer, and enough pesticides to kill off a medium-size ethnic group."
That is the deal killer for ethanol made from corn or just about any crop used to make ethanol. It won't free us from fossil fuel usage, it just hides said usage behind a politically good facade.
I guess with the public, out of sight is out of mind.

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unplanner on February 22, 2006 - 9:04pm

That depends on where you grow the corn: In the irrigated Sacramento Valley and San Joaquin Valley of California much corn is grown with humongous quantities of highly subsidized water, obscene quantities of fertilizer, and enough pesticides to kill off a medium-size ethnic group. The yields are fantabulous.

Almost. Much of the corn grown in the central valleys of CA are fertilized courtesy of factory farming operations. Megadairies, hog farms and chicken mills need a certain amount of acreage to spread the dried animal waste on for disposal purposes. Corn is the most common crop to use for that purpose. The problem is these factory farms are still dependent on imported feed from the midwest, which of course uses fuel for transportation. It's quite remarkable to note that both Valley farming and business interests are celebrating the arrival of ethanol plants to the 99 corridor for their economic value. When I was a planner there I thought this was a bone-headed idea because the feedstock was imported (albeit at times augmented from local sources at times) from the midwest consuming fossil fuels, limited water supplies (from a depleting aquifer), electricity and natural gas. The natural gas situation needs additional comment because the valley's supply (south of fresno) has pipeline capacity limitations more constricted than the overall tight national situation. Rapid residential growth has further exasperated the situation. The wet mash was touted as a "perfect fit" for the S. Valley's factory farm operations, without any consideration to the water considerations of those facilities. Corn + Dairies + Ethanol production = considerable water and energy expenditures. This concept is not understood by government regulators and ignored by the private sector interests. More on factory farming and resource consumption: http://unplanning.blogspot.com/2006/02/plans-that-stink-to-hog-heaven.html

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unplanner on February 22, 2006 - 9:05pm

Correct URL:
http://unplanning.blogspot.com/2006/02/plans-that-stink-to-hog-heaven.html

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odograph on February 22, 2006 - 8:44pm

The mash, fermentation, separation cycle should allow a fair amount of water recycling. (FWIW, the old chemist/brewer in me speaks)

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SocraticGadfly on February 23, 2006 - 3:58am

And, of course, this doesn't count the NG needed for fertilizer. Of course, in the Dakotas, thanks to our real Fearless Leader, farmers in the Dakotas can get coalbed methane from his home state of Wyoming. Just don't expect any water to be left to flow down the Powder River into the Missouri, and from there into the Dakotas, that's all.

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Gets IT on February 22, 2006 - 2:58pm

Hey Magnus, we're on to you. The price of drinks in Sweden is so high, we know you're never going to send it back to us.

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ET on February 23, 2006 - 12:57am

Isn't a lot of bauxite shipped to Sweden and Norway to refine into aluminum because of the low cost of hydro electricity? I remember 5th grade geography when we learned that steel was made near the coal mines and not near the iron mines because coal is heavier than iron ore (generally speaking). Lots of this type of resource transportation going on. NG is tough to ship though.
I think we are seeing fertilizer production already moving toward where the NG is.

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Agric on February 23, 2006 - 1:22am

Yes, aluminium production is virtually uneconomic without low cost hydro-electric, the electricity input is massive, one might worry that the aluminium producers may sell their electricity and stop producing aluminium until the price gets silly.

Yes, NG fertilizer production in US has become uneconomic, odds are that all US fertiliser plants using NG will shut down.

Cheap transportation has perhaps temporarily distorted normal economics, that has swung back a bit and will swing further.

There will be further 'adjustments' along these lines.

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109 comments on And we thought Colorado had problems

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