This is a good discussion, but it raises the question, what is going to happen with these communities if and when gas gets much more expensive? Those houses aren't going to disappear. People are still going to want to live in them if possible. They represent an enormous investment, almost like a natural resource. Imagine that we came upon a new land and found thousands and thousands of houses stretching as far as the eye could see. Would we scorn it and turn away? No, we would find a way to use them.

In the same way, we have to understand and appreciate the native ingenuity and creativity which will be spawned from a change in economic conditions. People are not going to be locked into today's way of life. If and when that way of life becomes impossible, they will create something new.

An obvious possibility is to move jobs nearer to these exurban communities. You mentioned Phoenix being structured more like a bunch of satellite cities rather than a single megalopolis. That is an ideal arrangement to reduce driving distances and allow people to live closer to where they work. I imagine that we will see similar developments happening throughout metropolitan areas. Suburban communities will become the preferred places for companies to locate. People will move to be closer to their jobs. We may see greater mobility, flexibility and dynamism in how people integrate their working and leisure lives.

Another possibility is to see greater use of telecommuting. Yes, this has been predicted for years without much success. But the truth is that for many of those jobs there is really no pressing need to bring everyone physically together. Most people today do service jobs and many of them can be handled remotely. What we need is improved communications beyond what we have today, so that two way view screens are a standard and ordinary part of the home office. You need to be able to chat with a co-worker as easily as at work, and managers likewise need to do the equivalent of walking past desks to see that everyone is being productive. This technology is nearly here and if the economic need arises, it can be efficiently implemented.

The point is that when things change, people change to adapt to them. I agree that it is unfortunate for people to be making fixed investments in real estate and housing if the basic economic circumstances are about to undergo radical change. As you know I am not as certain as most people here that this kind of radical change is truly just around the corner. But if it does, and most investments today turn out to be far from optimal, nevertheless I am confident that an entire population of motivated, intelligent and creative individuals will come up with much better solutions to their problems than a few people today can envision.

"Most people today do service jobs and many of them can be handled remotely."

Which means the can be handled in India for half the cost.

Furthermore, most of those jobs invovle managing/accounting/distributing the hallucinated wealth created from buidling homes, cars, consumer goods, etc. You really think these jobs are even going to exist in the future when there is a lot less wealth to be managed and accounted for?

Best,

Matt

I tend to agree.  I believe the jobs will be going away along with the valuation of the financial assets that these homes represent.  And as Leanan points out below, once enough of the homes default, there will be a snowball effect (even in Phoenix!) of devaluation.  In some places it should in theory be possible to break these oversized structures up and use them for multiple families, etc., but somehow I don't see it really happening.  In places like Phoenix they will need to be abandoned, as they are not environmentally viable.  
~20% of the Phoenix labor force is in construction.  They have been growing steadily for several decades now.

But let us suppose that growth slows by half and half of the construction workers are laid off.  Soon, they will move on to greener pastures, vacating 10% of the housing, as well as many small offices.  With a large influx of "new" hosuing (recently vacated) the demand for new construction will nearly evaporate, laying off 19% of the labor force (1% will always find some construction).  They leave town after a period of unemployment.  19% housing vacancy.  Housing prices drop, service industries from medical to car dealers (and especially banks) suffer.  More layoffs, more move outs.  More empty houses EVEN IF NEW CORPORATE TRANSFERS CONTINUE AT A MODEST PACE (perhaps 1/2 current rates).

Taxes rise, services and schools decline.

Add $6 gas and Phoenix suddenly seems less attractive.  Corporations begin to move out ...

I can see Phoenix reforming around it's light rail line (s) with higher density.  And retirees selecting parts of the Valley to move into cheap housing (leaving in summer.

The US abandoned much of it's preWW II housing after WW II, and the standard of construction and materials was FAR higher then.  I am currently in Phoenix very close to Scottsdale, and the standard of construction here will not hold up well for most homes.  50 years and many will need lots of TLC & repairs.  Boarding up and abandonment seem quite plausible to me.

That is a very good point.  I was reading one article about the new McMansions, where a contractor argued that there's no point in building to last.  He said the clientele they are aiming for normally buy a new house every 5-7 years.  Ten at the most.  Simply because fashions change, and no wants a house that's out of style.  Why build to last for decades, when the customer is only going to be there a few years?
They do not even ask for quality to get a high second hand value on their house? Building after the fashion, I would rather build in a way that reflects who I am. I am toying with the idea to build a house if I get the career I hope for. Something practical and reasonably sized that can be usefull for generations and I dont even have kids. (Yet, who knows? )
Whith a gable suitable for building an extension if there is need for more rooms in the future.
They figure when the house is resold, the new owner will want to renovate it, not live in it as is.
~20% of the Phoenix labor force is in construction.

And a large fraction of the construction labor is illegal aliens, who are:
  • Much cheaper than US labor, thus driving the construction boom.
  • Culturally alien and more prone to crime, thus increasing the attractiveness of "safe, distant" communities.
  • Directly driving the explosion of population which is served by the construction.
If you fenced off the border and deported illegals even half-heartedly, this problem would end.
You don't have to deport them. When the dollar stops being overvalued, the remittances they send home will become almost worthless and they will go home by themselves.

This is a picture, my friend Dave took when he was stuck out in Phoenix for a year working at an auto repair shop and training to be an auto mechanic. He's now a video editor in NYC. Some of his stories of Phoenix are quite ridiculous, but true.

Wall St. Journal Reports had a special peak oil episode last year.  Their financial talking heads predicted that exurban real estate would tank.  People would not be able to pay their mortages and their gas bills.  Once a neighborhood reaches the point where 30%-50% of the homes are in default, the bottom drops out of the market.  There are so many properties offered at fire sale rates by the banks that the entire neighborhood's property values plumment.  

One of the financial gurus worried that the government would be pressured into offering another big social program: mortgage bailouts.  

No one actually came out and said it, but implied in their analysis was that Kunstler is right: the suburbs will be the new slums.  

The inner suburbs are developing trendlines that point that way already. Property values going down, child populations going up, it's in progress already.
These exurbs can be mined for scrap and building materials. Once the building boom is over, these same illegals who helped construct them will be back, digging up copper, hauling away utility poles, dismantling the houses themselves. Such huge areas, once even partially abandoned, will be impossible to patrol. I see ghost-towns, not slums.
In response to dima's comment...

I agree, this kind of mining for scrap occurred extensively in Lithuania after the Soviet Union fell apart, and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to see this happening in the exurbs. Occupied houses weren't disturbed too much, but a construction site that was only half-completed, and then abandoned, was fair game. In my wife's village (okay, former collective-farm settlement, to be precise), a building that was set to become a cafe/store was abandoned prior to completion. Within several years, it was looted for its metal fixtures, and its remains were privatized. The buyers broke down the walls, and used the bricks for other structures. The site is now basically a hole in the ground.

Same fate awaited the Soviet military structures that were not immediately put to use by the Lithuanian military.

The really adventurous thieves went after electrical transmission infrastructure.

Quite a few of the electrical wire thieves died, but also triggered enough blackouts to be noticed worldwide in the industry.
They are made from flakeboard, cPVC and PVC pipes, vinyl siding.  There may not be as much worth salvaging from these developments as it might appear.  Copper wire in the houses, scrap wood, and street infrastructure.
I'd say the strandboard, dimensional lumber, wood flooring would be worth scavenging.  Water piping if it is copper, too.  Brick veneer should be easy to chip apart into bricks again.
You might be surprised.  Someone over at PeakOil.com was bragging about how they were using scavenged PVC pipe as fuel for their wood stove.  

I shudder to think of the chemicals released when you burn PVC pipe and treated lumber, but people are not going to be too picky when TSHTF.

Halfin,

I don't share your optimism at all, not in the short term at least. When this thing starts to crash, all that exurban and suburban property turns to kaka. Huge mortages, asset values dropping below the mortage, incomes threatened, the most fearful and isolated segment of the population, the least inclined to cooperation, goes under water: this is a formula for hell on earth.

Just the economics is frightening enough: this will be the largest asset devaluation in the history of the planet. I don't see how it can turn out any other way -- I am really trying to see it, but I don't. Even the warrior state cannot fend this off very long.

It is a mistake to just think of the physical side of things, alternate uses of the McMansions -- not that I think that there is any hope there either: what can they really be used for? No, these are financial assets, and their devaluation will have catastrophic consequences for the economy as a whole, the world economy I might add.

"this will be the largest asset devaluation in the history of the planet."

I think that would be a very good thing, after the initial pain.  Lets face it, one of the reasons that Americans have a higher cost of living, and cannot compete with the cost of labor in other countries is the amount of debt we carry.  This requires high salaries to sustain.  If all mortgages and personal debt was wiped out, and easy credit was eliminated, the cost of everything would go down, and salaries could drop substaintially.

>Lets face it, one of the reasons that Americans have a higher cost of living, and cannot compete with the cost of labor in other countries is the amount of debt we carry.

The real issue is that Americans don't want factory or any labor intensive jobs. Everyone wants a nine-to-five office job. Who wants to dig ditches and be exposed to freezing and sweltering temperatures when you can work in a enviromentaly controlled office?

I don't believe that.  That's the usual excuse offered for hiring illegal immigrants: Americans don't want to do the work.  Folderol.  Americans don't want to do the work for minimum wage and no benefits.  If you pay a living wage, Americans will do the work.  

Why have so many blue collar jobs moved overseas over the past 30 years?  Not because "Americans didn't want that kind of job."  It was because people would do it cheaper overseas.

Why have so many blue collar jobs moved overseas over the past 30 years?  Not because "Americans didn't want that kind of job."  It was because people would do it cheaper overseas.

No.

It was because one group of Americans could capture more welth if they laid off this group of Americans and hired that group of non-Americans to provide goods and services to those Americans who still had employment.

Where did China's capital come from? American investment. Who gets hurt if China revalues as demanded by the US government? American firms exporting fromm China.

I think you're both saying the same thing.  The issue of motivation is what we seem to be disputing.

Sure, overseas labour work's cheaper.  Not because their labour is actually worth less, but simply because the environment from which they hail can sustain lower wages.

And any "right thinking" suit (this must be an oxymoron) would see this as a boon and make a dash to locate labour expensive activities to labour cheap locations.

As for Americans and "undesirable" jobs, if wages and benefits reflected the "nut" that needed cracking, then I cannot think of any group more willing to work than Americans.

jimbo
;-)

I think it's more than that.  As Heinberg points out, at its root, globalization is about taking other countries' resources because we've used up our own.  Manufacturing got a big push when we hit the U.S. oil peak.  Labor costs were part of it, but only part.  Part of it was going where energy was cheap.
>  Americans don't want to do the work for minimum wage and no benefits.  If you pay a living wage, Americans will do the work.  

Try this. Go to the nearest office building and ask people entering or leaving if they would consider a farm or factory job if they earned the same pay as they currently do. I guarentee not a soul over 30 would consider it, unless they don't understand how hard it is. Working in a factory, or a farm is very hard work, boring and dirty.

On the other side, go to a working farm or a factory and ask the workers if they would trade their current job for an office job at the same pay. I bet the majority would consider switching.

The reason for choosing a profession career isn't just about financial benefits. Most educated people want careers, not a repetitive, back breaking job.

What is it that you do for a living? Do you work in a factory or on a farm? Have you ever tried a labor intensive job for more than a month? (No need to reply, just think about it.)

>Why have so many blue collar jobs moved overseas over the past 30 years?  Not because "Americans didn't want that kind of job."  It was because people would do it cheaper overseas.

Labor costs are certainly a strong reason for manufacturing jobs leaving the US. However, the trend started in the early 1950s as more an more Americans seeked out professional jobs. This was way before jobs began moving overseas. You can research the facts on the Labor department web site and see that the since the 1950s people seeking employment in farming and manufacturing has been in a steady decline.

The middle class was built with good paying factory jobs, not lots of professionals.  If you can make a good living without the effort of an advanced education, most people will take that route.  

BTW, I'm 42 and would gladly move to a farming job if I could make anywhere near the pay I do now as an engineering manager.  And yes, I do know what is involved.  

     Back in 95, when I was 39, I was working at Norfolk Naval Shipyard as an electronics tech.  Govt funding for our facility being what it was at the time and place, we ran out of money and I got offered the choice of an indefinite lay-off or the chance to work as a sandblaster/painter's helper at my current pay.  I had no choice but to take the transfer to the other shop.  The first day of training I was so terrified I had a panic attack in class and would have walked out, but was physically incapable.
     Somehow, I made it through and within two weeks was having the time of my life, working with some of the best people I've ever met and doing the most immediately gratifying, and perhaps more challenging work that I have ever done.  This included sandblasting, painting, cleaning drydocks,  removing sludge out of empty fuel tanks, etc.  Dangerous and incredibly dirty, hard work.
     It was really one of the most liberating experiences of my life after the petty politics of the electronics shop I had worked in for years.  I worked (by choice) in this job for almost three years, only going back to the shop to work on equipment for which I was the sole qualified tech.  Lest anyone think that I was just a malcontent who couldn't handle a technical job, I have been an electronics tech/test engineer for over 25 years at this point and have received nothing but accolades for my performance every one of those years.
     No, I'm not really representative, I guess.  When I go to my mom's on vacation, the first thing I do is rake manure from the barn.  Therapy...  
You may not be representative, but I don't think you're odd, either.  One thing about physical jobs: they really give you a sense of accomplishment.  Engineers tend to need this more than most, but it's often lacking in a modern engineering job, where you can work on projects for five, ten, twenty years or more, without seeing anything actually built.

In any case, for most people, it's not a choice between a professional job and a factory job.  The people who used to work at factory jobs are now working at jobs in the service sector.  They are often just as boring as the dullest factory job, if not quite as dangerous.  The pay is also lower.  

I used to live in a small city that was known for its manufacturing.  The last manufacturing company closed a couple of decades ago (a paper company).  With the loss of the $20/hour jobs at the paper company, the area really went into a tailspin.  The only other jobs people could get with their level of education were fast food or retail jobs.  McDonald's, the mall, etc.  A lot of people started dealing drugs, since that paid very well and didn't require a degree.

I had a similar experience rebuilding that house. I loved installing all the stuff I had been just drawing and specifying for so many years.  Not terribly dangerous, although a ricochet from a nail gun got me in the hand, but fairly dirty.  I'd love another job where I could design and build something.  I guess that's why I like doing stage sets.
I love working with my hands.  Many people do not realize how much thought goes into a well-done plumbing or wiring job, etc.  I have done extensive restoration work on a couple of old houses - I can sweat pipes, run wires, do framings and make trim with hand planes, do plastering and masonry, glaze windows, lots of fun stuff.  I am no expert in those areas by any means, but I'm competent enough to understand the level of skill required to be a master in these fields, and I greatly respect those that are.  I find the process very similar to the design work I do - all these things require planning and design if they are to work.  From there, one applies the specific implementation for whatever media you are working in.

I find such work to be very rewarding and enjoyable, and have long tried to accumulate as much of such skills and knowledge as I can.  I would not hesitate even a moment to trade my present career for one of these.  I suspect I would be much happier.  Next on my list are gardening and ironworking/blacksmithing (if I can find the time).

I agree with you.  I was involved in a paper mill strike, where we (management) had to run the mill.  I was a grinderman helper, which is probably the most physically demanding job in a paper mill.  Within 2 weeks, our crew (mostly engineers) was setting production records while spending 80% of the time kicking back and drinking coffee.  Overall, it was a good time.

Most physical work isn't that hard, it is the boring that gets you.  I got so bored while a grinderman that I took a power washer and cleaned 80 years worth of wood pulp off the machinery.

As a 26 yr old Sr Engr who did farm work until age ~20, I can say that I wouldn't mind the farm work if it paid the same.

Farming is hard, physical work but it is also good exercise and low stress (I mostly did hay/straw baling and hauling).

My current job is much more draining from the mental exertion and stress.

Hum...upon further thought, I could definitely handle hauling hay while listening to audio books on my MP3 player. That would pretty much eliminate the boredom of the job. Very nice indeed!
Try this. Go to the nearest office building and ask people entering or leaving if they would consider a farm or factory job if they earned the same pay as they currently do.

I don't have to.  At my office, we are about half deskbound and half out in the field (construction, maintenance, survey, etc.).  And those who are out in the field doing physical work are there because they want to be.  Some just hate deskjobs on principle.  Some like the overtime available to people who are out in the field.

As for farming...I live in an area that was all farms not too long ago.  Many of my coworkers own working farms.  They plan to farm full time in retirement.  They mourn the changes that mean their children who want to be full time family farmers will have a tough time of it.  

The reason for choosing a profession career isn't just about financial benefits. Most educated people want careers, not a repetitive, back breaking job.

Perhaps so...but a lot of people don't really want to be educated.  If they could get a job that paid well without having to get an expensive degree, they would take that route.  

I recently had to deal with someone who took a job as a "CADD operator" in our engineering dept.  He was a good kid, but didn't want to work at a computer all day.  Turns out, he thought "CADD operator" was some kind of heavy equipment operator.  (Such people are often referred to as "operating engineers," so the mistake is understandable.)  He eventually quit and took a job running an excavating machine for a construction company, and was much, much happier.

What is it that you do for a living? Do you work in a factory or on a farm? Have you ever tried a labor intensive job for more than a month? (No need to reply, just think about it.)

I am currently working as a civil engineer.  I have worked at labor intensive jobs in the past, including farmwork.  (It was my first job, and yes, it was grueling, but I wouldn't mind doing it again.)  

I've worked out in the field before, and would do it again.  Indeed, I asked for a field position when I was first hired; my previous job was as a bridge inspector.  I was put in the office because that was where they needed people.  I've stayed there because the office is only 2 miles from my apartment.  If I went out in the field, I could be assigned to job sites who knows where.  I don't want to spend four hours a day driving.  

However, the trend started in the early 1950s as more an more Americans seeked out professional jobs. This was way before jobs began moving overseas. You can research the facts on the Labor department web site and see that the since the 1950s people seeking employment in farming and manufacturing has been in a steady decline.

Or maybe the jobs available in farming and manufacturing began to decline?  That was when machinery and automation really began taking off. Remember IBM's constant propaganda about how computers could never replace human workers?  Hah!

>As for farming...I live in an area that was all farms not too long ago.  Many of my coworkers own working farms.  They plan to farm full time in retirement.  They mourn the changes that mean their children who want to be full time family farmers will have a tough time of it.

Unfortunately these people aren't the norm. The majority of the American population lives in urban areas, and have no experience in agraculture. You're cherry picking a few people that you associate with and assume this applies to the entire country. Are there people that enjoy farming and manual labor jobs? Absolutely, but that doesn't imply the majority does.

>I am currently working as a civil engineer.  I have worked at labor intensive jobs in the past, including farmwork.  (It was my first job, and yes, it was grueling, but I wouldn't mind doing it again.)  

Thats fine. I have as well, but it does mean the majority of the population has done it or would want to work on a farm, or would be willing to work as many hours as foriegner workers are willing to commit. Given the choice of long hours intensive labor jobs or easy 9-5 jobs the majority would choose the latter.

Here in the North East, many homeowners use landscapers to maintain their property. If they aren't willing to spend thiry-odd minutes a week cutting the lawn or trimming the strubs, they most certainly are not going to consider farm work.

Most Americans (that can afford it) have air conditioned homes. Why purchase, maintain and operate an air conditioner at home if you don't mind hot weather or working in a less than office like environment? The majority of Americans also eat out more than once a week rather than spend time preparing a heathly, lower cost, homecooked meal. Why do americans buy luxary cars and SUVs that they cannot afford? Why does the average american carry nearly $9,000 in unsecured debt? Does this group even remotely seem likely they would be interested in working harder? I think not!

>I recently had to deal with someone who took a job as a "CADD operator" in our engineering dept.  He was a good kid, but didn't want to work at a computer all day.  Turns out, he thought "CADD operator" was some kind of heavy equipment operator

Thats odd that your company hired someone who didn't understand what the job was. Usually that issue disappears during the interview.

>He eventually quit and took a job running an excavating machine for a construction company, and was much, much happier.

A heavy machine operator, is really a professional job. Most likely his work week is 40 hours or less and his job is more or less similar to a computer operator, that is operating equipment while sitting in a chair. The manufacturing jobs overseas are usually 60 to 80 hours a week, and farming jobs usually fair no better. The bottom line is that Americans are not going to put in the same long and hard hours as foreigners will commit.

To give you some perpective, from the mid nineteenth century up until the late 1940's the average American factory job was Ten hours a day Monday through Friday and Five hours on Saturday and had about half-hour lunch break. Prior to the 1920s they use to work the full day on Saturday. By the 1950's Unions began to win concessions and the work week eventully fell to about 40 hours. If Americans didn't mind the work, why did they demand fewer working hours, despite that they would have made more money since they were paid by the hour? Why not just demand more money per hour instead? The bottom line is that the majority of Americans don't want long, labor intensive jobs.

Thats odd that your company hired someone who didn't understand what the job was. Usually that issue disappears during the interview.

It was an entry-level position.  We were willing to train a capable candidate.  He was capable, but just not interested in sitting in front of a computer all day.  That is many Americans' idea of hell.

A heavy machine operator, is really a professional job. Most likely his work week is 40 hours or less and his job is more or less similar to a computer operator, that is operating equipment while sitting in a chair.

Nope.  You work a lot longer than 40 hours a week.  Which is good, because there may not be any work available at all in the winter.  You're also exposed to the elements, which you are not in an air-conditioned office.

The manufacturing jobs overseas are usually 60 to 80 hours a week, and farming jobs usually fair no better. The bottom line is that Americans are not going to put in the same long and hard hours as foreigners will commit.

Sure they will - if you pay them enough.  Many American "professionals" put in those kinds of hours.  It's worth it to them, because they are paid well.

If Americans didn't mind the work, why did they demand fewer working hours, despite that they would have made more money since they were paid by the hour?

Perhaps because they were rightly concerned about others who might want to work?

Americans have been working longer and longer hours for that past 20 years or so.  The reason?  It's cheaper for companies to force people to work longer hours than to hire more people.  Especially since many "professionals" don't get any overtime for the extra work.

The offshoring of manufacturing was a tragedy for many Americans. (Billy Joel even wrote a popular song about it - "Allentown.")  The factories didn't close because of a lack of workers.  Far from it.  People wanted to work.  Desperately.  

These are not people who could easily get professional jobs, even if they wanted them.  They ended up in the service industry instead, flipping burgers for much less money.  

Look at all those miners now who are defending their companies, despite safety violations and on-the-job injuries and even deaths.  They are terrified that the mine will close and they will lose their jobs.  Despite the long hours, hard work, and danger.

bah humbug :P  While I don't mind working 9-5 (usually it's around 9-7) I can't stand working in an air-conditioned office.  I'd much rather get my hands dirty doing something physically productive.  It may also explain why despite having two college degrees I still make less than the average income, but I'm content with things as they are.

What kills me more than anything is seeing Labor unions declining year after year.  They're keeping the blue-collar jobs equipped with a decent living wage, and the 11% or so of us who can live a middle class life outside of staring at a computer monitor all day.  Once the Unions go, office jobs will be all that's left :P

"I think that would be a very good thing, after the initial pain."

I think you are underestimating the "initial pain". One could argue that the Depression was a good thing "after the initial pain" (which included WW2) -- after all, it was followed by the 50s! The only difference is that I don't see the segue into something comparable to the 50s. And truth is, WW2 was not devastating for the US even though soldiers lost their lives. But there's every likelihood that we will NOT go unscathed in upcoming wars and turbulence.

I am unable to envisage an optimistic short or medium term scenario - except that very great hardship will remold us into creatures more focused on building a sustainable and cooperative future.

If all mortgages and personal debt was wiped out, and easy credit was eliminated, the cost of everything would go down, and salaries could drop substaintially.

You know, credit is not easy, but costs of everything are very low, and salaries have dropped substantially, in Sudan. Perhaps you'd like to go live there? You might think it's a very good thing, after the initial pain ...

Why is it that so many smart people are so willing to discredit themsleves and the group to which they belong with such asinine statements?

Are you saying the pain is avoidable?

Are you saying the American "way of life" can continue, unabatted?  Are you saying it should?

What, exactly, is you point?

Given the role the US has played globally since the Monroe Doctrine, maybe they deserve a little bit of Sudan right at home.  Maybe not the "American People," but since they're the ones who rule the roost at the ballot box, maybe they ought to endure a bit of pain about now.  They could have voted for a sane America.  They chose to vote for their comfort and gadgets.  Guess may get to feel a little of the harshness life can dish out.  Maybe, God forbid, a little pain.

jimbo
;-)

I was reponding to enviro attny, whom I quoted with a regrettable lack of attribution, apologies.

As for the insanity, America didn't vote for it. The last 2 elections were rigged, remember? And as we all know the system is broke, no one has the guts to fix it, and gassing about it here changes nothing. Let's move on.

There is a way to avoid the pain of a second great depression. And we're doing it right now. Let the developing world continue to manufacture goods. Let America continue to manufacture debt. Let the foreign exchange rates be fixed by strongarming foreign central banks into inflating their own currency.

And let's all continue breeding like yeast in the barrel. Invent ways to turn all biomass into oil. Shovel what's left into the oceans along with all our other toxins. This way to the supercriticality ...

Mortality is a small price to pay for existence -- Bob Geldof.

So you're saying the fate of the past two presidential elections resided in only two states, Florida and Ohio?  Surely you cannot be suggesting that the American system can be controlled by the outcomes in two states and two states alone?

Why would you idiots have not made Florida and Ohio irrelevant by controlling the ballot boxes in the rest of the bloody Union?

I rest my case.  Comforts and gadgets.  That sums up the "state" of the Union.

jimbo
;-)

I think it's a technology problem.  That is, the people in charge don't understand the technology.  There are two Republican-controlled companies who make almost all the electronic voting machines in the nation (one of which is now in trouble for securities fraud/insider trading).  And they took no real security measures.  Many of the machines were connected to the Internet with no firewall.  They were not protected from physical tampering.  Political partisans were allowed to take the memory cards from them.  There were instructions posted on the net on how to hack them.  Anyone who was reasonably computer literate would not trust touchscreen voting machines...but the people who made the decision to buy them, and the monitors responsible for overseeing their use often know nothing about computers.  

A lot of the election reform groups are pushing for optical scan ballots instead.  It's supposedly the most reliable.  Tell that to the thousands of students whose SAT scores were incorrect.  The reason?  The optical scanners used to score the tests don't work correctly when it's humid, and the week the test was given saw wet weather in many parts of the U.S.

This is a classic example of Tainter's diminishing returns.  All this expensive technology...that's too complex for the average Joe to use.  Makes you wonder if we shouldn't have just stuck with placing a check mark on a paper ballot.

Leanan, a lot of the rigging was not technology-based at all, just good old fashioned fraud.  Don't supply machines to poor areas likely to vote Democrat.  Purge the voter roles.  Fake voter registration drives.  

It was systemic, pervasive, and coordinated - and it did not need to be in all states at all, just the ones in play.

Good gosh, man, who said they only rigged two states? Here's just some of the ways it was rigged:

  • TV is a mind control device. Whoever controls the TV, controls the election.
  • Lobbying is graft. The US government is a business and everyone is for sale.
  • The two party machines destroy any credible alternative the same way Detroit destroys any credible alternative. But they likewise provide no significant differences in policy except on quibbles.
  • Voting machines. Not just the electronic ones - any ones that don't use indelible ink on pieces of paper counted by human examiners. Remember Cooper's Law - "All Machines Are Amplifiers"

    But like I said, gassing on here will do nothing to change any of that. The system is screwed, and the only meaningful vote is with your feet. America, love it and leave it.

  • I'm afraid Americans DID vote for Bush the last 2 elections.  He should have lost by a wide margin if we had been paying attention.  I have long since stopped worrying about what Bush is going to do; I worry about what Americans are going to do.  Carter's reward for warning us about energy was defeat by Reagan.
    As for the insanity, America didn't vote for it.

    MOST Americans did not cast a ballot FOR Bush.  

    The last 2 elections were rigged, remember?

    Every election has some degree of rigging.   This one has sets of data that make it obvious.

    Oh, and welcome to TOD.  Were you sick of The Blue?

    MOST Americans did not cast a ballot FOR Bush.

    Fine.  Who the hell did they vote for?

    More importantly, why, when the evidence and scope of manipulation was apparent, did the electorate sit on its fat arse and let the result go to Bush without a single mass uprising of any significance?

    It's not whether you win, it's how loud you protest an invalid result.  If it worked in Ukraine, in the bloody freezing winter, what would stop it from working for you and yours?

    jimbo
    ;-)

    Who the hell did they vote for?

    Most of them didn't vote at all.

    The rest voted for Kerry, Nader, other obscure candidates, or screwed up their ballots accidentally.

    Fine.  Who the hell did they vote for?

    Read the construction again.   It was set up to be inclusive of ALL Americans, many who can not vote, and the ones who opted to not vote at all.   In addition to the green/Libertarian/Nader et la votes.

    why, when the evidence and scope of manipulation was apparent, did the electorate sit on its fat arse and let the result go to Bush without a single mass uprising of any significance

    If you have a job, are making enough to pay the bills, have a family - WHY woudl you stand up and complain and run the risk of not having a job, be unable to pay your bills, et la?

    For your premis to be correct, you'd have to have Americans to be an idealisc lot who'd be willing to stand up to people in power.

    When the mass of citizens are cold and hungry - have nothing left to loose, THEN you'll see many throw themselves into  trying to effect change.

    Plenty of cheap labor in Somalia too.
    An obvious possibility is to move jobs nearer to these exurban communities. You mentioned Phoenix being structured more like a bunch of satellite cities rather than a single megalopolis. That is an ideal arrangement to reduce driving distances and allow people to live closer to where they work.
    It's certainly possible to move jobs to the exurbs, but in absence of the kind of large-scale telecommuting that has failed to occur, it's far from ideal. If you have a company, you want a labor pool that is drawn from as many people as possible. You don't want to be forced to hire only from within your immediate neighborhood. If you move your firm from the central business district, which can draw employees from all parts of the region, to an exurb on the south side of the region, your office becomes too far from all the talented people on the north, east and west sides. Lacking access to these talented people, your firm fails to compete vigorously, and in time, it withers and dies. The model of jobs-in-the-exurbs would have been better suited to "company towns," where everyone works down at the plant and stays there for life. But in an age where many people change jobs every two years, companies need access to a large labor pool, and individuals need access to many companies.  Hence, the city.
    Not only that, but the companies will face the same problems individuals do.  They need supplies, support, etc.  Right now, the energy cost of those is still pretty negligible. In the future, there will be financial incentive to relocate to the city.  Where the ports are.  Where the other companies you deal with are.
    I am not convinced that there would (will) be a steep drop-off in personal mobility, but if there is, the first step will be to throw out the old ideas of zoning.  And then convert 1 McMansion in 10 into a McOffice.  Concentrated support for high bandwidth and video conferencing, distance from distractions at home (really just 3 houses down), etc.

    There is actually a town next door to mine with "messy" mixed business and residential.  Why did they do it that way?  Because it worked.

    That is one of the beauties of the New Orleans urban fabric, the number of "non-compliant" businesses surrounded by homes (grandfathered in).  Hubig Pies Bakery was just down the street from where I used to live (air pollution :-), until 3 years ago, a sheet metal fabrication factory (since 1880s) took up most of a square block in the French Qtr, Commander's Palace is in a residential neighborhood, Magazine Street is 5 miles of small shops, many in former residential homes (hell for cars, 2 narrow lanes, but great for walking).
    That is one of the beauties of the New Orleans urban fabric, the number of "non-compliant" businesses surrounded by homes (grandfathered in).

    There are other cities built on swampland that have the same feature.   Milwaukee comes to mind.

    But what do you care, if it is not New York City, San Fancisco or New Orleans it is not worth saving.

    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/3/18/194843/888#39

    > if it is not New York City, San Fancisco or New Orleans it is not worth saving.

    True, teh only cities with unique cultural valeus worth preserving.

    Really, we need to start evacuating those energy hungry Great Lakes states whilst we have the fuel to do so.  MASSIVE winter heating requirements !  Do you knwo that it sometimes gets down to 0 F (-18 C) in Chicago AND they use MASSIVE amounts of energy removing snow almost every winter ?

    Chicago is clearly not sustainable. Too much winter heating, too much snow removal.

    Don't worry, global warming will fix that.  :-P

    There was an article in the paper today claiming that we may be seeing the death of ice-fishing.  There's just not enough ice around here any more.  

    True,

    No, only true in your head.

    Really, we need to start evacuating those energy hungry Great Lakes states whilst we have the fuel to do so.  

    And move them to where?  The swampland of Milwaukee?  

    At least the infrastructure of Chicago hasn't been destroyed in a demonstation of how bad the idea is of building under the water line is.

    Chicago is clearly not sustainable. Too much winter heating, too much snow removal.

    And yet, somehow, the native Americans occupied the area.   So the area can be occupided sustainably.  

    A builder who is in Madison is well known for his ability to put together homes that don't need a heating plant - passive solar can keep the building warm.  (Strike one)

    Too much snow removal?   In the poorer counties, many roads go un-plowed.   City allys go un-plowed.   (Strike Two)

    The cold weather keeps the termites away.   I'm sure you have heard of termites, right?

    The native Americans heated their homes with the once abundant renewable fuel growing around them. And at MUCH lower population densities than today.  I doubt that the residual forests in and around Chicago could sustain more than one cold winter today.

    So yea, a few should remain behind.

    So one home (I assume with super insulation, very small windows and perfect orientation to the sun) can heat itself with passive solar.  Well that means that 99.99996% of homes cannot.  (by contrast, a majority of homes in New Orleans were built before the widespread advent of air conditioning, with high ceilings, transoms, whole house fans after the 1910s, etc.)

    The rest of the homes (those with excellent solar orientation) should either be rebuilt or razed and new buildings with salvaged materials built in thier place for the few that remain behind.

    Every winter, the infrastructure of Chicago takes a hit from winter.  Your roads erode away from salt, frostheaves, potholes, etc.  Water mains do not last as long, etc.  Slow motion destruction resulting from the idiocy of living so far north.

    Not plowing the streets fror snow ?  A few will want to stay behind in their passively solar heated homes for a couple of months (in a severe winter) waiting for the spring thaw (hopefully no medical emergencies in that time).

    Where to move them ?

    Perhaps some to New Orleans.  Very sustainable urban fabric, just get the US Army to do the task it was supposed to do since 1928.

    The rest to new cities in Mississippi, Arkansas, Georgia, etc. but sustainably.

    Plowing snow won't be a problem once no one can afford to drive.  

    Assuming there is any snow, that is.  Chicago might end up with the climate of New Orleans fairly soon.  

    Nope, even more frequent snow plowing is requierd for practical winter bicycling. And roads need to be kept open for garbage collecting, ambulances, busses, delivery trucks, etc.
    I don't think it will work that way.  If there are ambulences or delivery trucks - and I'm not sure there will be - they simply won't run if there's too much snow on the ground.  
    I see how you ignored the termites eating away at the very structure of your 'All cities but New Orleanes, New York and San Fancisco' are worth saving.

    Via
    http://www.pastpeak.com/archives/2006/03/rising_ocean_te.htm
    this Nature report
    http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060313/full/060313-12.html

    "We're looking at a much worse risk than people were thinking about a year ago," says Curry. And with sea levels and rainfall set to increase as a result of global climate changes, the risk of flooding from such storms will grow, she adds.

    "Some people will not return to New Orleans. They'll vote with their feet," Curry says. "And some places are going to become uninsurable."

    Your pro-New Orleans plan has the special government handout - flood insurance.    If New Orleans is so worthwile, call for the end of government handoutsand pay for the insurance directly WITHOUT the government handout.

    At least Worldchanging is approaching the matter in a rational manner w/o some kind of wierd claim that New Orleans is one of 3 cities that must be preserved "for the culture"  
    http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/004226.html

    Places already damaged by storms stand every chance of being hit again, and political resistance to rebuilding at-risk cities will only grow with each big storm.

    Abandon the city now, or spend a bunch of resources and abandon it to the swamp later.  

    So one home (I assume with super insulation, very small windows and perfect orientation to the sun) can heat itself with passive solar.  Well that means that 99.99996% of homes cannot.

    99.999996%?   Where did you come up with this 'basis' for your argument?

    Is Canada cold enough for ya?  
    http://www.cansia.ca/downloads/factsheets/18.pdf
    Ya see, if you were not able to buy/build a passive design, you can make an active design.
    The key technologies are Evacuated tubes and radiant floor heating.
    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/hackleman65.html

    Your desire for the nation to 'save New orleans' blinds you.

    Water mains do not last as long, etc.

    !00+ years on xome of the water system.  Ya know HOW they get 100+ years?   They bury the material BELOW the frost line.

    Slow motion destruction resulting from the idiocy of living so far north.

    Idiocy?   Slow motion destruction means one can put aside funds to eventually repair things.  

    VS placing ones property in the path of a hurricane - FAST motion destruction.

    To own property in most of Chicago you don't need a federal government handout in the form of flood insurance.  Living in NEw Orleans, flood insurance via the federal tit is needed so people can "afford" to live there.

    BUT

    Slow moving destruction makes one an idiot?   What is the word for choosing to live in a zone of fast moving destruction AND needing handout from the 'idiots' to live there?

    (by contrast, a majority of homes in New Orleans were built before the widespread advent of air conditioning, with high ceilings, transoms, whole house fans after the 1910s, etc.)

    Do you have a point here?   Buildings in Chicago built before 1910 have the same feature.  It is the same way in Milwaukee.  Or Minneapolis.  Or Madison.   Or Fargo.  

    Here is a hint about humans and heating:  If a human is cold, they can wear more clothes.   If a human is hot, there is onky so naked a human can get.

    Colder climets are more livable because you can do things to be more warm (like add clothes) and humans in them have less parisites.  I've got science backing my position, what you got?

    Halfin,

    If people really as intelligent as you seem to think, would they even be investing in the exurbs in the first place?

    The answer is "no." They would see this living arrangement for what it is which is, even according to your optimistic outlook, a poor one. Intelligent people don't take out 30 year mortgages on less than optimal investments.

    What makes you think people will behavor more intelligently in the future then they are currently?  

    As far as finding land with houses on them, we would NOT (if we're smart) make use of them if the costs (natural gas, cars for the commutes, oil for the cars, wars for the oil) exceeded the benefits. We would just let them sit out there unused. Or maybe we'd tear them down and invest the materials in builiding more optimal and profitable living arrangements.

    Best,

    Matt

    If people really [were] as intelligent as you seem to think, would they even be investing in the exurbs in the first place?
    Frankly, this is one of the things that makes me more skeptical than many here about the Peak Oil scenario. I do think that people are pretty intelligent about things that matter, and this is something that matters. The fact that so few have accepted the Peak Oil theory, to their great detriment if the theory is true, is evidence to me that the theory is false. Granted, most people have not heard the full theory in all its tragic Shakespearean glory, but generally they have been exposed to it in some degree and have the potential to learn more.

    I know it's more fun to think that you're smarter than everybody else, but studies have repeatedly shown that most people overestimate their own competence, skill and intelligence. This is an area where I think a little modesty is helpful in terms of getting a better understanding of what is going on in the world.

    So basicallly your'e saying you're skeptical of Peak OIl because it's not common knowledge?

    Herd thinking at it's finest!

    The reason people don't understand Peak Oil is because they get their news/information from sources that have a vested interest in keeping them from truly understanding it. As Uptonn Sinclair said, "it's hard to get a man to understand something when his income depends on him not understanding it."

    Best,

    Matt

    As Upton Sinclair said, "it's hard to get a man to understand something when his income depends on him not understanding it."
    But you are arguing the opposite: that people do not understand peak oil even though their very survival depends on them correctly understanding it! You're assuming that they are blind to their own self-interest, the opposite of the behavior that a cynic like Sinclair was complaining about.

    As far as "herd thinking", IMO the value of the common man is greatly underestimated. One of the books I've been reading is "The Wisdom of Crowds" by James Surowiecki. He provides a host of cases where aggregating the opinions of the great mass of people has been extremely effective. A familiar example is Google, whose PageRank algorithm exploits the enormous base of web links in an automated way to rank search results.

    Another book I'm reading is "Expert Political Judgement" by Philip Tetlock - reviewed here. He ran a prediction experiment for over a decade and ranked experts on accuracy. They were consistently beaten by a random model tantamount to chimps throwing darts. One of the few factors correlated to performance was media exposure - the more often he appeared in the media, the worse the expert did!

    Remind you of anyone? Speaking of Matt Simmons, everyone should take a look at today's entry at Peak Oil Debunked, which touts up Simmons' amazingly off the mark predictions for this past winter. You get special recognition for your helpful calculation that Simmons' predictions would imply gasoline prices of $12 to $25 a gallon these past few months.

    Simmons is a perfect example of the kind of thing Tetlock warns against. The media love "experts" who give colorful, newsworthy quotes. Being right or wrong doesn't even matter. A more cautious expert who hedges his predictions with caveats and on-the-other-hands is far more likely to be correct but will never make it on the air.

    Halfin,

    Actually, Peak Oil awareness hurts your chances of survival at least in the short run which is what your brain prioritizes. (If you don't survive the short term, you never get the chance tos survive the long term.)

    Think about it: once you are aware of these issues you become somewhat of an outcast even if only to a small degree.  I have trouble, for instance, celebrating or enthusiasitcally discussing my friends' plans for big homes in exurbia and 401Ks I believe will be worthless someday. Would not have had any trouble bonding with people over these issues/discussions prior to finding out about Peak Oil.

    I can fake enthusiasm for my friends "accomplishments" okay, but that's never as good as being sincerely enthused. Thus, I am actually less able to socially integrate into my peer group (my tribe) today as compared to my pre-peak oil days.

    Back in the hunter gatherer days, this type of effect could have had disastorous results. Worse that happens to me in the modern day is (if I was practicing law) maybe me and the other lawyers working on a case don't have the same level of camradarie we'd have if I shared their interests and outlooks.  That level of camadarie (morale) could have an effect on our success in the courtroom and in fact would all other things being equal. But worse case scenario, the other side eats our lunch.

    Back in the old days however, that lack of camradarie could be the difference between life and death. Worse case back then was some animal ate us for lunch:

    http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,18262331%255E912,00.html

    Hence, your brain tends to filter out any information (such as Peak Oil) that makes it difficult for you to integrate with your tribe as failing to do so lowers your chances of surviving in the short term.

    As far as political predictions, I think you are correct: thing is 99.9% of the people making predictions these days are people like you who say all will be fine albeit there might be somb bumps. Just turn on the MSM.

    Best,

    Matt

    "A familiar example is Google, whose PageRank algorithm exploits the enormous base of web links in an automated way to rank search results."

    ------------------

    Halfin,

    Great then (at least for my argument not for our future), that means the scenarios I've put forth are most likely to be accurate models of the future as my site sits atop the google rankings for peak oil and for oil!

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=peak+oil
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=oil

    Best,

    Matt

    My grandfather looked around and decided to leave the Austro-Hungarian empire one hundred years ago. He was one of a few tens of thousands out of a population of tens of millions in that country that emigrated to America that year.
    Considering what happened to Hungarians in what is now Slovakia, since, that is not a bad illustration of why abandoning the herd is sometimes a very good idea. You are rarely right, but when you are, it pays very well.
    The book The Wisdom of Crowds provides evidence that crowds are better than individuals at solving problems, for example estimating the number of jelly beans in a large jar, or determining the most likely winner of a horse race.

    But buying a home in the Arizona exurbs is not an attempt to solve a group problem. It's a selfish, rational attempt to satisfy individual preferences about home location, comfort, sunshine, humidity, temperature, amenities, culture, etc.

    Homeowners in Florida, Texas, Louisiana have known for decades about the prospects for severe huricane damage, and Californian's know more than they care to about the San Andreas fault and the inevitable 'big one', but these certainties haven't stopped them from taking the risk of home ownership in these areas.

    Peak oil and water shortages are to these land owners in Arizona, a problem for someone else, in some other era.

    Ask a crowd of white people in 1850 Mississippi what they thought of black people. Guarantee you the answer would invalidate the theory that crowds are well-informed.

    Best,

    Matt

    The majority of people in Mississippi in 1850 supported black liberation because they thought that it was fair, because they thought it was better for the economy, and because they thought that there would be a war if they didn't support emancipation.
    Possibly you don't count them because of majority of that majority that supported emancipation were black.
    Godwin's Law states that the first debater to invoke the name of Hitler in making a point, loses the debate.  I would suggest to you that invoking the lurid image of race relations in southern USA in the 1850's has similar connotations.

    We're talking objective problem solving here, not prejudice and emotion.

    GJ,
    You were the first to invoke the name "Hitler," therefore, you lose;-)

    I do believe you are totally missing Matt's cogent point: The opinion of the majority is often wrong.

    It does not matter how large the majority is, nor does it much matter how long the majority holds its belief: The world is not flat, no matter who says so.

    Thus, people who argue for the "wisdom of the crowd" are committing the logical fallacy of "appeal to popularity," which, in turn, is a variation of the ad hominem fallacy.

    You may dislike Matt's conclusions, but I do not believe you can fault his logic. If his premises are correct, his conclusions follow.

    What I hope (but do not know) is that those premises could shift a little, but as of now, I fear they are highly plausible.

    Lynch-mobs and riled up citizenry can't be compared with individuals within a group making unemotional decisions about things like where to live, or which horse to bet on, or what kind of car to buy, etc.  I think we all agree that people can act as a herd when emotions are involved, witness the support for the incredibly stupid and immoral invasion of Iraq by Bushco.

    And no doubt, when a money mania takes hold, like the Nasdaq bubble a few years back, people can and do lose their senses (and their savings).  Fear and greed do affect decision making, but I don't see how that plays out in a decision to live in Arizona or where-ever.

    GJ,

    Surely you don't intend people to take you seriously when you posit that buying a home or picking a racehorse are not decisions loaded with emotions?

    That was a joke I assume.

    Best,

    Matt

    No joke, Matt.  Don't know if you've bought a house or bet at the track, but I've done both many times.

    Sure, my first home was a bit of an emotional decision, but only within the constraints of how much I could afford, the general location, taxes, and condition.  Most people are very analytical about such a big decision, and yes, emotion may play a small part, but you imply that analysis is outweighed by emotion.  Not by a long shot.

    As for picking a horse to bet on, all I know is that the public favorite (the one with the lowest odds in a race), over a large series of races, wins more often than any other categorization, and beats the expert selectors all the time, hands down.  It's a fact.  Nobody selects the probable winner in a horse race more frequently than the public.  Sure, some folks pick a horse to bet on the basis of jockey, color, hot tip, high odds, name, number, etc., but most people go to the track to make some money, and these bettors, weighing the significant factors that determine the outcome of a race, put their money on horses based on analysis, not hope.

    The odds on horses in a race reflect the probabilities of winning - those with low odds win more often than with high odds.  Over a long series of races, the distribution of winners in odds categories reflect a horse's true chances.  The public errs at extremes - the heavily bet favorite wins slightly more than the odds would suggest, and the longshots (more than 20:1 odds) win less often than the odds predict.  I suggest that this is where the emotional aspect of racing is exhibited - at the extremes.  Many horseplayers don't really care to bet a heavy favorite, so these horses tend to be slightly underbet.  And those going to the races for a laugh tend to bet the longshot, making longshots overbet.  

    Analytical crowds display wisdom.

    Again, people wonder why I'm pessimistic about our society's prospects. This is an example of what I'm talking about. Here you are, an obviously intelligent person (as deducted from the coherentness of your writing), who is analyzing Peak Oil based on what he learned from gambling at the race track! Good lord, even the peak oil blogosphere is being intellecutally "las vegasied".

    Best,

    Matt

    Gambling at the race track? Hardly.

    This may be more your speed.

    ... crowds are better than individuals at solving problems, for example estimating the number of jelly beans in a large jar, or ...
    You know, that just might be true:
    Individual: "Ohhh, my stomach hurts! I think it's about 100."
    Crowd:      "Zero! There are zero jelly beans in the jar."
    Just so you realize predicting a continuation of status quo is itself a prediction, as detailed as anything else other "experts" may come up with.
    I'm sick of ridiculous misrepresentations made of Simmons so people can have a straw man to knock off. I shouldn't even bother to reply to such nonsense as the Peak Oil "Debunked" comments (which I did read).

    Anyone reading what he said realizes he stated that certain conditions could lead to the outcome he described. For example, a cold winter. He didn't predict a cold winter, he said if there was one, we could be in trouble with our gas supply, and he was right.

    We just happened to have the warmest winter on record, so the conditions didn't apply. His warning (NOT PREDICTION)was not disproved at all. In England, where there are severe natl gas problems right now, such a scenario is playing out as we speak. Now the politicians are saying "no one could have forecast this" when indeed some did but few listened. Just like the levees in N.O. Every year prior to 2005, you could have said those warnings about the levees were hysterical, when in reality the experts were right but the big hurricane had simply not hit - a matter of luck.

    Ah, the old CIA joke about how to succeed as a analytical officer.
    The retired analyst for MI6 was asked how he managed to work his way up so high and get such a nice pension. His answer was simple. His record of prediction was almost perfect.
    "Every peacetime year between 1910 and 1950 they asked me if the Germans were going to declare war on us, to know if we should mobilize first. I said no, and I was wrong only twice."
    Good one!  Thanks - sometimes it's best to make one's point with humor.
    His warning...

    Yes, he warned us in quite hysterical terms, about something which didn't even come remotely close to happening. Oil prices were virtually flat. They did not rise to $100 or $190 or $500. Gasoline did not hit $10. It is important to inform people about warnings like these which don't pan out. That way they can evaluate his next warning more objectively.

    Objectively means reading what he said and the conditions he placed.  The fact that the hurricanes didn't hit didn't mean the levees were sound.

    What nonsense!

    "The reason people don't understand Peak Oil is because they get their news/information from sources that have a vested interest in keeping them from truly understanding it."

    Ah yes, the same sources that had Saddam piloting the planes into the WTC while simultaneously connecting the circuits together for his ICBMs.

    I'm reading "Irrational Exuberance" right now.  That discussion, of "bubbles" works with or without peak oil.  It just seems more dangerous with peak oil.

    What we are really looking at is a tension between people's belief in the economy, and their belief in the bubble.  When is it a bubble and when is it an economy?

    It's tricky, because mass consumption with mass production does create wealth.  But when that very pattern gets carried away, bubbles get created.

    This is a funny one. I don't know from where you are speaking. I believe that crowds are very much aware of peak oil. Every day I hear a conversation in a store or in a restaurant about vanishing oil. Yesterday I heard a young girl (about 20-25) telling her boy-friend she didn't want to have a baby because of her certainty about worsening economic conditions. I even believe that people have always known about peak oil. It is only very recently (last 15 years) that people began to think that growth could go on indefinitely. I myself have always thought that one day the flow of oil would decrease. In the early 70's we lived in Germany, my father was an accountant for Shell. We walked on a street on Sunday, all trafic had been stopped because of oil shortages imposed by the embargo. I asked my father if the situation would be back normal soon. He told me that there was plenty of easy oil left, for about 30-40 years. After that we would have to shift to something else. Seems he was right. And a lot of people knew about this.

    The people have just forgot, having been put asleep by television and bankers.

    The fact that so few have accepted the Peak Oil theory, to their great detriment if the theory is true, is evidence to me that the theory is false.

    I don't know whether to laugh or to cry on that. Halfin, is the Sun going around the Earth or vice versa? Do you know that 50% of americans believe that the Sun is spinning around our planet (I guess for our pleasure)? Of course this makes this theory true, as the majority of the "rational market participants" are not accepting the ridiculous theory that the Earth may be revolving around the Sun. What do you say? Aaaargh this one is different because it is about this people's money? So wasn't it just 5 years ago "true" that we are had enter a new economy, a "virtual" economy, that does not depend on some idiotic fundamentals? What happened with that new economy, and how many billions were lost to people's stupidity and greed?

    It seems obvious to me that greed and stupidity go hand by hand. That's why I always have to laugh when I hear that "rational... market..." tale being repeated over and over again. This so called "rationality" is nothing else than the individual perception of everyone in the bandwagon that he can unload to the next dummy when things start to bust. Therefore everyone is buying McMansions and will be to the very end - because everybody thinks he/she is smarter than the rest and someone else will be the one to pay the bill.

    The majority of people believe many things that are simply not true.  How many people thought Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - how many still do?  How many thought invading Iraq was a good idea?  

    Remember when your Mom asked "if everyone else jumped off a building, would you do it too?"  As time goes on, I care less and less for the consensus opinions of people in groups - in the end they're usually shown to be wrong, but they seldom ever do realize it.  

    Whether the Sun goes around the Earth, or whether Iraq was involved in 9/11, are questions that have essentially no bearing on the day to day lives of ordinary people. The truth or falsity of their beliefs on these matters does not change their lives. It makes more sense on such remote and abstract questions to hold views that are socially acceptable.

    The situation is different for questions like where to move, or financial planning over the next several years. On issues where the decisions really matter, people put a lot of effort and thought into them. Real estate agents know that location is the most important factor in selling a home: other problems can be repaired or changed, but the location is always the same. This shows that people are thinking hard and rationally about these problems and are not buying on emotional or superficial grounds.

    As far as the Internet stock bubble, it's true, the public did not successfully predict the top, by and large. But investing experts know that these situations are almost impossible to predict. Few experts were able to call the top accurately either, and for those who did, it was almost certainly more luck than skill.

    Ever try to buy something at a convenience store when the crowds, in their wisdom, are buying lottery tickets at almost impossible odds?
    Slightly off-topic ...

    One person who did call the top quite well was Jeremy Siegel, Wharton School of Business professor of finance and author of "Stocks for the Long Run," who wrote a column in the Wall Street Journal on March 14th, 2000 titled "Why Big Cap Tech Stocks Are A Sucker's Bet."  The fact that the column appeared just four days after the NASDAQ peaked was pure luck, but the column was prescient nonetheless.  At the time of publication, Siegel was not an unknown but a highly respected professional in his field, and his reputation has remained intact to this day (his latest book is "The Future for Investors").

    As a value investor and disciple of Warren Buffet for the past twenty-five years, I don't put much credence in the strong forms of the efficient market hypothesis.  I mention this because your comments, Halfin, with regard to the "wisdom of crowds" and markets seem to indicate that you do believe in all three forms: weak, semi-strong, and strong.  In other words, excess profits are exceedingly difficult to obtain no matter what you do, and technical analysis, fundamental analysis, and even access to insider information are all of no value.  Is it fair to say that you believe in the EMH lock, stock and barrel?

    Given that there exist some investors such as Buffet who have consistently demonstrated the ability to generate excess profits over several decades, would you entertain the notion that a sufficiently knowledgeable investor, operating apart from the crowd, could generate excess profits in the oil markets?

    I don't necessarily believe in the strong form of the EMH. Clearly stock market fluctuations and short-term bubbles and crashes do occur. The market can get into a state where it is too introspective and loses touch with reality temporarily. However I think those are mostly short-term phenomena and that in general and over time that stocks and other market valuations are generally fair and rational.

    I also think there is no systematic way to predict when these "bubbles" will burst, and in fact in most cases there is no way to even tell if you are in a bubble. Look at the debate now over whether housing is in a bubble or whether low borrowing costs are making expensive houses more affordable. We will not know until after the fact. If housing levels off smoothly, we will say it was not a bubble. If prices collapse, we will say it was a bubble. I've read analyses claiming that there really is no way to say whether a bubble is occuring until after the fact.

    Consider: Alan Greenspan warned of "irrational exuberance" in the stock market at a time when valuations had tripled in the previous few years. Was he prescient? Not exactly! He made this warning in December, 1996, with the Dow at about 6500. He already thought we were in a bubble. But the market went on to climb to 11000 and fell only to 7500 with the "burst". So we weren't in a bubble at 6500, we were only in the bubble at prices above 7500. The valuations at the time of Greenspan's warning held up very nicely. And of course now we are back up above 10000. What does that say about the "bubble"? Maybe it wasn't a bubble, maybe valuations were correct then and it was the fall to 7500 in 2001-2002 that was a glitch, and we are back to reasonable valuations today.

    The point is, you can make up all kinds of stories about bubbles and crashes, but it is questionable whether there is any objective reality to them. There are those who argue that price movements are best understood as a random walk superimposed on long-term growth, and it is only our human pattern-recognition tendencies which force us to see these ups and downs in terms of patterns. It's like when we see castles in clouds or the Virgin Mary on a potato chip.

    As far as Buffet, I haven't followed his career closely, but I have seen claims that he has just been lucky. Studies have found that there is little correlation between advisors who do well one year and those who do well the next. With thousands and thousands of investment experts and advisors in the media, a certain percentage will do well just by luck. He could be the tail end of a normal curve.

    Haflin,
    Buffett was not "lucky," because you do not outperform the S and P 500 for every single ten-year period for the past thirty-five years by "luck." Nor was his mentor, Benjamin Graham, "lucky."

    Recommended reading:
    Benjamin Graham, "The Intelligent Investor"

    Also for some of the best writing about investments, go to the Berkshire-Hathaway website and read Buffett's annual reports. Also, if you like to rub elbows with multimillionaires, buy a share of Berkshire-Hathaway B stock and then you are entitled to go to the annual meeting in early May in Omaha. By far the best and most fun annual meeting anywhere--and the Berkshire-Hathaway stockholders are a fun bunch, too.

    Halfin and Don, thank you for your replies.  I enjoyed your discussion on this thread.

    From Berkshire Hathaway's most recent letter to shareholders, which is here:

    http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2005ltr.pdf

    Over the last 41 years (that is, since present management took over) book value has grown from $19 to $59,377, a rate of 21.5% compounded annually.

    I do believe that 21.5% is statistically significant in terms of excess profits above and beyond any relevant stock market index, interest rate, inflation rate, etc. over the same time period.  And Buffet is not alone.  There are a small number of investors with similar records over similar multi-decade periods.  The problem, of course, is how do you identify and select these managers prospectively?  As you noted, the world is full of advisors who have a few good years and then flame out, taking their clients or shareholders down with them.

    BTW, I don't think the Dow was in a bubble back in 2001. I think it just peaked and entered a bear market, and not as bad as the 1973/74 bear market at that.  The NASDAQ, on the other hand, was clearly in bubble, dropping almost 80% from its 3/10/00 peak  of about 5,050.  Today it's about 2,300, less than half its peak.

    Yes, "The Intelligent Investor" is excellent.  And "Security Analysis," also by Graham.  Never been to "Woodstock for Capitalists" in Omaha, though.

    1. Some of the houses will be abandoned. When I was a kid the woods were full of abandoned farmhouses with land going back to forest. How could they compete with subsidized irrigation in the Southwest?
    2. Some of the houses will be bought by people with limited commuting needs. Retired people, diabled people, group homes for children, rich people, etc.
    3. And it's pretty easy to retrofit/build a large greenhouse over a detached suburban house in Minnesota, and then you don't have to worry about heating anymore!
    Halfin, I have to jump in here and agree with you, especially since you went and used one of my main buzzwords, "ingenuity".

    I am sick to death of the people like Kunstler and the other Apocalypticons telling us how humanity has never faced anything this serious, and then predicting in minute detail how freakin' awful things will be.  How do they know?  Why are they so intent on making these moralistic arguments about the downfall of modern civilization, etc.?

    As I've said before, the people who live in the exurbs will, for the most part, be the ones most able to invest in energy-saving technology, whether it's solar panels or a diesel hybrid or a hydrogen fuel cell car in just a few years.  Oh?  Are people laughing because I used the H-word?  Don't tell Honda, which will have a mass production fuel cell car on the road in 3 to 4 years, or Hyundai, which is saying they'll be selling a fuel-cell version of the Tucson in 2010.

    Hydrogen is not the tangle of intractable technical problems many people thought.  You can short-circuit the whole distribution problem with an in-home hydrogen generator that produces it from natural gas (as does the Honda Home Energy Station), or uses electrolysis to make it from water.  But that's expensive and inefficient!  Actually, no.  Download the hydrogen spreadsheet from my site's downloads page (http://www.grinzo.com/energy/downloads.html) and see for yourself.  Plug in numbers for the expected price of gasoline in 2010, and you'll see that per-mile hydrogen made with brute-force electrolysis, even at residential rates, is cheaper.

    And that's just one partial solution.  We've barely begun to tap oil conservation efforts across the US economy, we've never been pushed hard to make widespread telecommuting work, and we're just now getting serious about exploiting wind and solar.  (If you couple wind with hydrogen generation via electrolysis, a solution that's getting a lot of attention, the intermittancy problem of wind power disappears and you get cheap, clean, renewable energy.)

    Yes, PO will be a bitch, and there will be more than enough pain to go around for anyone who isn't wealthy.  But Kunstler and all the other people (like, well, Kunstler) who predicted Very Bad Things for Y2K are going to look really foolish when we rise above this problem.  And even if they don't, I'd rather be optimistic while I'm fighting like hell to help educate people, even as I imagine the day when I get to dance on the graves of the crappy ideas from Kunstler, et al.

    Lou,

    I'm curious, do you have any numbers on the following:

    The amount of our GDP that goes towards oil and natural gas coupled with the amount of our GDP that goes towards defense as compared to the amout of our GDP that goes towards renewable energy and alternative forms of transport.

    My guess, and it is only that - a guess, is the ratio is probably at least $100 on oil, natural gas, and defense for every $1 on renewable energy and alternative forms of transportation. My suspicion is that it's far higher than $100 to $1.

    If you want to know where we're heading as a society, just "follow the money."

    Best,

    Matt

    Regardig "ingenuity", I posit that for every 1 unit of our ingenuity is being channelled towards renewables and alternativces 100 units are being channeled towards weapons development and deployment in or around oil fields, shipping lanes, or chokepoints.

    Following the money (which we pay for ingenuity) is probably the best way to determine where our society's collective ingenuity is being channelled.

    I have trouble seeing how people can remain optimistic about our society's future when you "follow the money."

    Best,

    Matt


    "I have trouble seeing how people can remain optimistic about our society's future when you 'follow the money.'"

    You have to follow the money with a grain of salt..

    I am right on board with Lou Grinzo's post about Ingenuity.  We've seen our fatal, human flaws again and again, greed, violence, irrationality, etc.  But that's not our full nature, it's just the parts that we fear.  I think it really depends on what you ultimately believe that people are.  I don't buy Malthus, or the arguments that claim that the most pessimistic answer has to be the most 'realistic'.  Doesn't wash with me.  I've seen too many great human beings who've survived horrible things and come out smiling.  A guy who, as a young boy, watched the Kmer Rouge wipe out his whole family, and is now one of the strongest and most optimistic people I have known.

    "..Virtue is Immortal, while Evil must constantly respawn.."
      Steinbeck, East of Eden

    "..The World will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and If they catch you, they will kill you.  But first, they must catch you.  Digger, Runner, Listener.  Prince with the swift warning.  Be clever, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed."
       Richard Adams, Watership Down

    So I guess the moral of your story is we're in for killing fields, mass rape, and other horrific developments but some of us who will survive the bloodletting may have a chance of being better and stronger as a result of living through it?

    Great, I feel better already.

    Forgive me if, instead of popping the underdosed cyber-prozac you just offered in this post, I simply try to position myself away from the oncoming horrors as best I can.

    Best,

    Matt

    In for?  No, we already HAVE Killing Fields, Mass Rape, Slavery and other Horrific Developments.  We've had them all our lives, I'm not predicting them or precluding them.

    Of course you don't feel better. You don't sound like you want to.  I really doubt that you're 'Positioning Away' from the horrors; you've got your head completely surrounded by them.  It's not hard to get there, I admit it.  I'm just saying that if I'm going to take any encouragement in our prospects, it will be that I see people as the resource we have a chance with.  When the Shit's going down, I'm sure you'll have someone's back, and they'll be lucky for it.

    If trusting in people is Prozac to you, then what is real? What do you believe in?

    Bob

    I believe we will revert to more "tribalistic" ways of living. This means cooperation within your clan (usually your family), competition with those outside of it.If you look at American life, you're already seeing these trends begin to manifest, quietly but earnestly.

    What I've sensed among Peak Oilers is they fall into one of two generalized but nonetheless accurate "minsets":

    Mindset A: Mad Max/loner/survivalist/we're going to eat each other alive or

    Mindset B: Ecotpia/community/we're all going to sing kumbaya together.

    I'm saying you will see the best and worst of both at the same time. You will rely on your family members more - even the ones you don't get along with too well - but you'll also be ready to get tribalistic on those outside of your family/tribal group.

    Best,

    Matt

    Midset B is not even worth commenting on. Mindset A fails to recognize that individual strategies will be useless.
    The mountains I live in are littered with the ruins of once-booming ghost towns, the plains to the east are filled with once-thriving villages that now exist only on old maps.

    The suburbs and exoburbs of today will be the ruins of the future. I don't see anyone trying to live in them.

    "He told me that the Lizards were a race of people, practically extinct from doing things smart people don't do. . ."

    "The Lizards would be saved, he said, If they could be enlightened by the writings of the Helping Friendly Book. In all of Prussia only one existed, and Wilson had declared that any person who possesed it was a crook."

    --Phish

    While I'm generally with you on the optimism, this gives me pause:
    You can short-circuit the whole distribution problem with an in-home hydrogen generator that produces it from natural gas (as does the Honda Home Energy Station)
    That couples the hydrogen infrastructure to a source of energy which is in shrinking supply, has huge price volatility and is increasingly imported.  You know, like oil, only worse?

    Hydrogen can be produced by gasifying coal, but the amount of infrastructure involved is prohibitive.  And don't get me started on electrolysis.  If you're taking electricity as far as your house, batteries beat hydrogen by a huge margin.

    If your rosy scenario doesn't work without hydrogen, it's unlikely to work, period.

    Just as an aside, your hydrogen from methane plan has one gaping hole in it: you still make CO2. If you're going to make H2 from CH4, don't bother: just burn the methane (that's running out).

    As for electrolysis, as long as there is an infinite supply of electricity, H2 from electrolysis is a grand plan. We'll need to start importing dilithium PDQ though. You can't beat the laws of thermodynamics unfortunately.

    Why don't you just buy a Honda Civic GX now, and be ahead of the game?

    (I really don't get the exercise of home nat gas to h2 conversion.)

    Ingenuity isn't rebuilding New Orleans.  Being optimistic is fine, but also leads to fiascos like the Iraq war.  For example, if anyone was truly intending to sell any sizable quantities of hydrogen cars in three years they would be building the factories and training the workers right now.  They're not doing that.

    Also, as someone who has worked with hydrogen on an industrial scale, you can have my own prediction FWIW.  There will never, ever, be a mass-produced hydrogen car.  Maybe a bus, but never a car.  The safety considerations are such that you could not trust it to a normal consumer.  The same goes for mini-reformers or electrolysis units.

    hydrogen fuel cell car in just a few years.  Oh?  Are people laughing because I used the H-word

    No laughing.   Just a head shaking and some tounge clicking.

    A fuel cell that converts Hydrogen attached to carbon (and oxygen) from chemical to motion will be more efficent than the present heat cycle.  (Tip of the hat for a long past mention of others who'd stated this by Engineer Poet)  If I make some Hydrogen gas, I can't keep it for 7 years.  Whereas Ethyl Alcohol I can  keep it for 7+ years and it would be as good now as tomarrow.

    you'll see that per-mile hydrogen made with brute-force electrolysis, even at residential rates, is cheaper.

    Is this game we wanna play?  "The Price of the market" amd "the invisible hand of the market" type crap?

    Tell ya what.  When your numbers stop ignoring subsized electric rates for home consumers, the government rebates/tax breaks/giveaways et la for energy production and have been adjusted THEN you can make the claim you are making.

    Otherwise, you are claiming the invisible hand of the market  is not covered by the gauntlet of government power.  

    Yes, PO will be a bitch, and there will be more than enough pain to go around for anyone who isn't wealthy.

    'more than enough pain'?   You make it sound like all the non-rich will go "Oh!  Life is harder!  Oh!" and that will be the end of it.   A lack of faith in my fellow man make me think that the people who have wealth will end up stripped of it by mobs (if not killed), then government force in taxation for people to 'keep the peace',  

    crappy ideas from Kunstler, et al.

    What idea?  That the suburbs are a bad idea?   That the resource consumption rate in the US is unsubstainable at the present price structure?

    I agree that no one can predict how people will react to a declining resource base and exponentially rising energy prices. I also take Halfin's point that one cannot finger-paint pictures of the comng energy apocalypse as Kunstler and Savinar seem intent upon doing. That said I can find no reason for optimism. The exurbs are even more energy inefficient than the "suburbs," and the suggestion by our optimistic resident economists that folks will adapt by anti-social means (telecommuting) and pie-n-the-sky technological fixes (hydrogen cars) strikes me as fanciful as Kunstler and Savinar dark visiuons.

    One final thought: my observation is that effective change in economic behavior is a generational matter and happens over the course of thirty to fifty years. Until people actually go to the pump and find it out of fuel people will not adapt to the new realities of flat oil production.  To some extent price spikes will change short term behavior, but no one believes peak oil will effect them, until it does. I would say anecdotally that no one around here has substantially reduced their driving.

    My thinking is we'll react as most lifelong addicts react when cutoff from enough of their drug supply to meet their body's demand. Some will get clean. Most will get violent or irrational.

    I don't see how this is "fingerpainting dark visions" as much as it is an honest, albeit generalalized, assesment of where our society is heading.

    If we were speding 10% as much on defense and 1,000% as much on renewables as we currently spending, I'd see reason for a bit more optimsim.

    Best,

    Matt

    FWIW, I do not own a car and have only personally driven once in the last two years. So this hombre most definitely has altered his consumption habits (or potential habits) in light of our predicament.

    Best,

    Matt

    I think a rational observer is going to watch this unfold and make iterative assessments of the problem and possible outcomes.

    I think anyone committed to an outcome now is being silly.

    But I think the "superficial optimists" may not always be aware that they have committed to a single outcome.

    Very well-stated.
    Thank you!  (I would like to thank Trader Joe's Bay Blend Ultra Roast for it's chemical contribution to this morning's postings.)
    I use the phrase "wrestling with jello" to define both plans for dealign with New Orleans and post-Peak Oil.  The number of variables are overwhelming and exceed the known facts.

    Assumptions can be made, but the number required to come up with a solution (future scenario) are so large that some of the assumptions must surely be wrong (but which ones ?)

    I have some money now.  I would like to retain it's usefulness and value.  Given the above, what to do ?

    Multiple solutions (known as diversification).  Each choice works well with one or more likely scenarios, but few with all possible scenarios.

    In the last year my driving has been cut by 95%
    In the past week, I have driven ZERO miles.
    One year ago I would have driven no less than 150 in 5 days.
    And could have driven as many as 1,000 miles in one months time.

    So let me be the first to say, nope! You are Wrong.

    Even my coming move will not change the precentage by more than 20% up, to only 75% of my previous driving.

    Halfin, I want some of what you are smoking.

    Those houses aren't going to disappear. People are still going to want to live in them if possible. [...] Would we scorn it and turn away? No, we would find a way to use them.

    So, let me get this straight. The plucky, people of Phoenix will stay out there in their desert homes, telecommuting (without electricity), keeping cool, (without electricity), drinking water imported from where? At what cost? A bottle of water would cost what? Let's see. Does anyone know how much bottled water costs now -- by the gallon? Hmmm. One 12 ounce bottle costs lets say, one dollar. With one hundred and twenty-eight ounces to the gallon that works out to -- drumroll please -- 10.67 dollars per gallon. That makes water worth more than two and one half times a gallon of gasoline. So, if gasoline goes to 10 dollars a gallon, water will be what? Twenty-five dollars a gallon? Well, that may be more a factor of the stupidity of people who buy bottled water than the actual cost, but I would not be surprised if it did rise significantly. It sure as hell ain't going down.

    What we need is improved communications beyond what we have today, so that two way view screens are a standard and ordinary part of the home office. You need to be able to chat with a co-worker as easily as at work, and managers likewise need to do the equivalent of walking past desks to see that everyone is being productive.

    Now that is a doozy. Yup. The only people who live in Phoenix are cubicle monkeys. Sure. We will all sit at home and electronically shuffle paper. And, I suppose we will contact the auto shop by email when the car breaks down and the mechanic will apply remote sensing technology to fix your car at a distance. And, let's see. Food. Fast food joints already have computers to take orders, we can just email them our orders and they will drive it right over. Groceries. Hmm. More deliveries I suppose. And, of course, food prices will never rise. Cause we are the plucky, people of Phoenix. How dare they factor fuel costs into food prices. So, I guess the telecommuters will grow their food on their lawn, right? So, more water. And oil? Where is the oil, natural gas and water needed to make all of this great computer stuff going to come from?

    And don't forget all the poor people. You know, the ones who are not involved in the hallucinated economy. The ones who actually still do things, but get paid crappy wages without health care. You think they are going to stick around and starve or die of thirst or become homeless due to the real collapse of the hallucinated economy? No, they may be poor, but they are not retarded.

    Halfin, I think you have a real moneymaker there -- that stuff you are smoking. I bet it's the same stuff ole Jiminy Cricket used to smoke.

    I got HIGHHHHHH hopes, I got HIGHHHHHH hopes, high in the skyyyyyy, apple piyiyiyyiyie hopes...

    According to this chart, Arizona generates less than 2% of its electricity from petroleum. The biggest source is coal, at 35%; then nuclear, at 25%, then hydroelectric, at 19%. We're not running out of any of that. I think if you rewrite your story and leave the electricity running, Phoenix may not be such a bad place to live.

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/arizona/fig1.html

    As far as water, I don't believe Phoenix has its water supplied in the form of bottles. I imagine they have it piped in. Yes, there could be water shortages from time to time, in Phoenix or just about anywhere else in the west for that matter, but it doesn't have anything to do with oil. My local area had a drought a few years back, and it was made illegal to water your grass. Homeowners hired painters to come and dye their dead lawns green. People can and do deal with droughts and water shortages, in this country and all over the world.

    Yeah, by threatening to go to war!:

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0318-06.htm

    Dude, thus far it seems your plan is for us to "telecommute and paint our way out of global catastrophe."

    And people wander why I'm so pessimistic about our society's prospects.  

    Best,

    Matt

    Pessimistic is a bit of an understatement. Alpha Male Profits from Doom probably sums it up best, if you website is any indication.
    You are 100% correct.  As I read somewhere there is a saying, "only a blockhead writes for free."

    Just cut Dave a check for (insert Dr. Evil style laugh) $125 for a guest post on my site. Plan on doing that more in the future as profits dictate. Wouldn't be able to compensate people for their work unless I was generating profits in the first place!

    Same thing for my bulletins. The writers aren't getting rich by any stretch of the imagination but if our licenses our renewed for 12-to-18 months, the price per word will be comparable to what they would get from The Rollling Stone, albeit paid out over a longer period of time.

    You want to hate on me for paying my authors, beyootch? Or is it only okay for the spinelss hacks in the MSM to get paid?

    Best,

    Matt

    Matt,

    Where have you been all this time?  Why have you only so very recently decided to stop "lurking" on TOD?

    I engage in what you might call "peak oil cybermarauding." I roll into a forum, get in a few fights and, roll onto the next and then come back round looking for more thought-provoking fuel for my brain's neurons.  

    And yes, I know what they say about fighting on the internet. But given the level of intellect here and elsewhere in the peak oil blogosphere, it keeps the ole' neurons juiced and ready to go.

    And it's a lot safer then arguing in public. Particularly in places like Florida where it's legal for people to blow you away for disgreeing with them:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/25/AR2005042501553.html

    Best,

    Matt

    Yeah, don't worry about it. Cherenkov found a new crack dealer who gives him a discount. To have Halfin, Jack, and now you chiming in here is really worth the price of admission.
    Glad to be keeping you entertained
    Keep doing what you are doing. You are much appreciated.
    Have you noticed the distances required to get ANYWHERE in the PHX Metro area ?

    Phoenix is starting the bare framework of an electricity driven light rail system, but only a few % of the population can use it.

    The rest need oil, and lots of it, to live and work.  (Retirees who go out 3 times/week driving to shop or doctor need less).

    Phoenix has very low winter home energy requirements, a major energy plus vs. more northerly areas.  But the auto is essential for survival in most of Phoenix.

    Phoenix could have built a low energy, semi-sustainable society in "the Valley", but they didn't.

    Its the Desert, who puts in a lawn in a water short area?  Native plants and Earth shelter houses sure, but GRASS!!

    Please smell what you are shoveling.

    Even here I have a lawn of mostly seasonal native plants and a few others that I do not seed nor water, if it lives it lives, if if dies, something else takes its place.  Right now I could go out (though it is a bit dark) and get at least several meals from the "weeds" That grow in my front yard. Not to mention that the Maples are in full seed production and they are an edible spring time feast.

    But GREEN grass, in a Desert, Please give these people a lot of clues to what they should not try growing.

    As to labor, 5 years at a desk, 20 years doing the harder jobs, and no educational degree.  Married-devorced twice No kids.

    Hello Dan Ur,

    The rich people in Phx have large green lawns because they can afford to hire illegals working for lawn-care businesses to mow them.  They also seed a winter lawn-- so they have lush green lawns year round-- makes no sense at all!  The golf courses for tourists and the fancy resorts spare no expense for winter grass.  Many McMansions and upscale shopping malls have fancy water fountains and reflecting pools: all require water.  Also, I think Phx leads the nation in swimming pools/capita.  At 115 degrees, the water evaporation rate is something fierce.  It takes a lot of water & energy to maintain these luxuries.

    Phx just might be the most unaware of 'Peak Everything' of any American city.  The abundant sunshine has totally fried everyone's brains!

    Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

    Drinking water is so cheap it's almost free. The farmers do all they can to swindle the city people into not watering their lawns so that they will pay for more dams and other infrastructure subsidies to farmers because of the illusion that water is scarce.
    Arizona water supplies would have to shrink by 90% before we would start cutting down forests in New York to start farming lettuce there again.
    You know, I spent three years on what was once a lettuce farm before the freeways made it practical to import lettuce from Arizona instead of buying homegrown produce in the summer. Which is why we got the property so cheap. No one was buying large upstate New York rural farmhouses in the sixties.
    The burning of a gallon of gasoline generates more than a gallon of water(I don't have the exact figures).  If you can buy gas at $3/gal and sell water at $10/gal you may have an interesting business model.
    Someone needs to invent a car that doesn't use gasoline. Do you think we could build a car with an electric battery that would make it possible to commute to work and be recharged enough to commute back home, stopping at a mall on the way?
    Just a thought.
    And maybe some kind of electrical power source for air conditioning that would work especially well during those bright sunny days in the summer, when the sun is high in the sky for hours, and hours, and hours, and hours, and hours, every day.
    It might be possible.
    Ever heard about olar Air Conditioning? ?

    http://www.solarserver.de/solarmagazin/artikeljuni2002-e.html

    This article is in english.

    There is already a very energy efficient way of cooling available. The hotter it is, the better it works. As far as I can tell, it is already in use on the roof on some of the government builings a few kilomters away from here where I live in Berlin.

    I am not an engineer, but this sounds really mezmerizing to me!!

    Is Bob Shaw from Phoenix Arizona smarter than yeast? Looks like the answer is....no.
    Hello PhilM,

    Thxs for responding.  My father died last Aug. at 96,  my mom sick and frail at 83-- I am her primary caregiver.  She is Peakoil aware, but prefers not to relocate.  So I am stuck here in Phx hoping it all holds together till she is gone [Obviously, I want her to live forever].

    My desire to relocate will be severely hamstrung by limited funds, limited skills, advancing age.  Such is life-- billions will be in the same postpeak situation.  I suggest that everyone should get used to the idea of dying in place.  If millions start streaming out of the Southwest, the other states will be forced to cut them down at the state line.

    Phx, and other desert cities will be a inverse of Nawlins.  See my other posting on fire in this thread.  I think people are vastly underestimating fire potential in a postPeak world.  Think the Great Chicago Fire, extrapolate to cities worldwide.  No fire trucks, no hydrant pressure-- bucket brigades are futile.

    Here in Phx during the summer heat, a fire can rapidly scale to a three or four alarm.  Not so much the size of the fire, but because other firemen have to be called to replace the initial firefighters.  Wearing heavy protective gear in 115 heat, plus the flame heat exhausts them in a very short time [15 to 20 minutes].

    Many housing developments in Phx are clustered very close: the joke is that you can hand a roll of toilet paper to your neighbor.  Some rooflines are only 5-8 feet apart.  A wind-driven fire could easily go on a rampage. AlanfromBig Easy can confirm this.  I am sure he remembers the fires in Nawlins that burned because the fire trucks could not get thru the flooding.

    Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

    And don't forget the Great Rome Fire, with Nero as the alleged torch. You could imagine Bush and Company playing iPods as cities burn. Just as Bush practically fiddled as New Orleans sank like a stationary Titanic. New Orleans set the precedent with Bush being a modern Nero.
    One of the things that struck me about the picture of "exurbia" was the amount of green. That, along with the houses themselves are a potential resource. Imagine all the green producing food instead of pretty lawns. Not possible in the desert maybe, but suburbia in other areas may not be the complete waste of resources that Kunstler views it as. Permaculture instead of lawns, converting 10% of the houses into small city centres, building relationships with the farmlands that are on the fringes of the areas... possibilities for humanizing suburbia when the commute is no longer a possibility.