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37 comments on Burning coal in place or in-situ gasification

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Boof on March 5, 2006 - 7:56am Permalink | Subthread | Comments top
With every passing year that oil is on the wane, coal is on the rise.  I suspect that various coal innovations (powder fuel, combined cycle, gasification, sequestration, coal-to-liquids, in situ combustion etc) will never be more than a fraction of overall use. Yet the industry is spinning them as the new 'cleaner' standard. Outside of Europe and Scandinavia governments are looking the other way or indeed are proud of increased coal use.

For example Australia is cock-a-hoop over coal exports to China and has effectively emasculated the greenhouse watchdog agency and climate scientists. The government's chief science advisor took a second job as a coal industry lobbyist. I live in an area that was all hydro with some NG peak load but is now connected to high emissions lignite burning plants.

I long for the day somebody who loses out to global warming will sue the coal barons.
   

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Don Sailorman on March 5, 2006 - 9:06am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Re suing coal barons: After TEOTWAWKI, there will be far fewer lawyers. Most of them stand near the front of the lines to collect Darwin awards. A litigeous society such as our own is a society in advanced decay.

Happened in the time of Socrates: Many Athenians were suing many of their fellow citizens others over most everything, and hence the sophists (old Greek name for shyster-lawyer) thrived and multiplied. Happened again near the end of the Roman republic. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Athenian democracy self-destructed, and the Roman Republic, after civil war, became the Roman Empire. The proliferation of lawsuits is both a symptom and cause of terminal decline.

When lawyers run things such as corporations or governments, they generally fall apart. Why is this? Well, Plato thought it was obvious: Lawyers accept money to make the weaker argument appear the stronger. Thus they corrupt their souls and destroy the young by their example, and they also destroy any form of decent government.

Not all lawyers are bad. I personally know two who are honest and competent, and I have heard that there is one other of this kind in Minnesota;-)

Show me an oil company, a coal company, a university or an airline or a government run by lawyers, and I'll show you an organization in serious trouble.

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oilaholic on March 5, 2006 - 10:12am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
As you must know at some level (probably a level that is automatically shut off when you push your RANT button), the western system of property rights, a part of the legal framework that is the heart of western societies, is what has allowed for the most efficient and effective capital formation in history.   It's resulted in a level of comfort, liesure, and opportunity for self-fulfillment unmatched in history.  More importantly, the lack of an effective system of property rights and it's accompanyingg legal framework, is the main reason for the poverty that besets and tragicly defines all "third world" countries today.  That we are a "country of laws" (along with all other "developed" countries) is what keeps the level of corruption low enough and the system of justice effective enought that we can sit around and cry in our beer about how tough things are going to get when the era of cheap oil is over.
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Don Sailorman on March 5, 2006 - 1:44pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I believe in the rule of law just as much as you do--perhaps more.

What I object to is government of the lawyers, by the lawyers and for the lawyers.

Compare, for example, the U.S. and Japan. The U.S. has--what? 2 million lawyers? Very rapid rate of growth in enrollment in law schools . . . . true?

Now look at Japan. Hardly any lawyers, a few tens of thousands. Guess what:
1. Japanese live longer than Americans.
2. Japanese have far more leisure than Americans because they retire younger and have far fewer women in the work force.
3. Japanese have far less drug addiction, depression and other diseases rampant in U.S.
4. Japanese have a high and positive saving rate. U.S. has a negative saving rate.
5. GM and Ford are headed to bankruptcy; Honda and Toyota flourish.
6. Do we begin to see a pattern here? I am not blaming everything on lawyers, although after viewing the "Bleak House" series on PBS and rereading the novel by Dickens I am tempted to do so. As Socrates and Plato realized, the proliferation of sophists (i.e. lawyers) is as much a symptom as a cause of decay.

Note that never in their gloomiest nightmares did our Founding Fathers envision a rule by lawyers. They thought the lessons of history were so clear that we could not be stupid enough to fall into that trap.

Well, they were wrong.

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Solaris on March 5, 2006 - 2:12pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I've got to disagree with oilaholic here.  Although your post was somewhat off-topic, Don, I found it quite interesting.  I had never heard about the scam lawyers of late Greece and Rome.  You've piqued my interest enough that I'm going to go do a little research about this now.
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enviro attny on March 5, 2006 - 8:41pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
So how do you feel about those of us that are both engineers and attorneys (and have worked in both fields)?
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Don Sailorman on March 6, 2006 - 12:55am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
You few guys I respect and honor because from my experience,
1. Generally you are honest and
2. You can think quantitatively.

Alas, you are few.

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joule on March 5, 2006 - 11:02am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Amen!

And the organization currently in the greatest trouble is the US federal government.

Now, is it any coincidence that by far and away more members of Congress come from a legal background than probably all other professions combined?

Of course we need a legal system. Without the enforcement of contracts and property rights all meaningful commerce would stop. But when legal warfare in and of itself becomes a common and accepted means of generating wealth, then I agee that is a sign of real trouble.

 By current definition, a lawsuit adds to the GDP (just as 10-car accident does), but does it really add to the general welfare?

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Don Sailorman on March 5, 2006 - 4:35pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Well stated. We can keep GDP growing rapidly after peak oil by all of us:
1. Suing our doctors, because they have not kept us in perfect health.
2. Getting a divorce once a year.
3. Suing our parents, because they screwed us up.
4. Suing our children, because they do not support us in the style to which we would like to become accustomed.
5. Suing our lawyers, because they did not get us the settlements we wanted in #1. through #4.

Thus you see the future of economic growth . . . .

Wish I were kidding about this.

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davebygolly on March 5, 2006 - 3:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Wait a minute -- I'm confused. I thought we're supposed to bash economists here, not lawyers? We had Lou Grinzo on the ropes, begging for mercy, and now we shift targets? No wonder we never win any wars. :)
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37 comments on Burning coal in place or in-situ gasification

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