172 comments on Wednesday Open Thread and News Dump
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The chart:

And, for all you Hubbert-Linearization true-believers, here's Laherrere's new liquids linearization. Note how the linearization goes haywire after 2003. We were all set to hit 2250, and then Bing! the unexpected happens, and now we're heading for 3000 -- maybe even 4000. Which just goes to show how completely worthless HL is as a predictive technique:

As Laherrere writes in his presentation:
"Oil demand is for all liquids. So the forecast of oil supply has to be given for all liquids."
Welcome the "The Liquids Drum"! ;-)
On a more serious note, I think Laherrere is right to focus on what will happen, as opposed to what should happen in an ideal world. I seriously doubt that climate concerns will keep people out of their cars. A massive move to coal may not be the best idea, but it's hard to imagine any social force that could stop it. (Not that I approve, of course. I don't. I detest cars.)
There is much to what you say. At least for me, my thinking on it has always been more that to understand the problem I have to break it into its constituent pieces and understand them one at a time. Since conventional oil production is by far the biggest piece on the supply side, it's behavior will dominate the situation in the short term. In the longer term, of course the question becomes about which of the various alternatives wins out.
I agree about the pressures for coal. I think everything depends on the hurricanes though. If we have more hurricane seasons like the last two, and if a scientific consensus emerges that the mode switch is due to global warming, I think the politics of coal will look extremely different in very short order. My own investigation of the climate issues has changed my view from thinking coal was the obvious stopgap solution to peak oil to thinking we shouldn't even go there.
That would be a great thing, and I'm definitely on your side. However, even if the hurricanes continue, I still think it's going to take the mother of all political streetfights to keep any fossil fuel in the ground.
But this is where Synergy and the Power Laws come in.
Climate Change is underway. And instead of preserving
Carbon Sinks, the West does a China.
The Tragedy of the Commons. Amazonia lose it's Carbon
Sink Status by 2015 (maybe sooner) Kilimanjaro loses it's
Snow Cap by 2015. Expect the Atlantic Thermohaline Conveyor
to quit by 2020.
But that is just the beginning, a report in Nature said last week. Future disasters around the Himalayas will include 'floods, droughts, land erosion, biodiversity loss and changes in rainfall and the monsoon'.
At the same time, rivers fed by these melted glaciers - such as the Indus, Yellow River and Mekong - will turn to trickles.
Even as humans do the Rule of 70, our ecology is screaming
it's loss.
We've got our foot on the accelerator as we slam into the Time Wall.
James
James
But you cannot dispute the truth of it.
Coal burning steam power plants are what worry me as far as CO2 is concerned. That is what is going to be built over the next ten years.
I think there are investors willing to gamble on high risk high return.
There is a reason why conventional is conventional - by definition that's the solution most often implemented. Do you see forces that would change the equation, and make non-conventional solutions more appealing from a business point of view?
"Montana is actively pursuing development of coal-to-liquids technology as a means of converting our significant coal reserves into synthetic gasoline and other fuels. Synthetic versions of petroleum fuels have been made for almost a century, and this technology offers great promise for reducing American dependence on foreign oil."
http://governor.mt.gov/hottopics/faqsynthetic.asp
"How long will it take for America to produce enough synfuel to make a difference?
There are already a number of small plants being designed around America, but a large-scale national effort must involve the federal government and would take a number of years. Given South Africa's success in this field, we should assume that if the federal government became meaningfully invested in this concept, America could have a strong synfuel industry by the next decade."
The last sentence, does that mean by 2010 or 2016?
Anyway this and other tax breaks do make alternatives viable in a business sense. Ten years is not a long time for a major corporation to invest on a known return. FT method works and is proven. It is just as conventional as any other current use for coal.
I was just listening to a report on NPR a couple of weeks ago about how New Mexico (I believe) was trying to force consideration of a coal gasifaction plant, but was having a very hard time.
"Actively pursuing development" is a long way from actual serious proposals. There's nothing in that link about Montana that sounds like any more than talk - are there any drawings, any plans? Have they figured out wher they'll get the water from yet? If the answers are no, then they are decades away.
Except that it's obvious we're not going to start this year, and no corporation is going to make that investment, despite having large profits. The best shot is that a few governments like Montana will do something.
Also, a lot of the posts here have criticized Laherrere's curve because CTL can't be scaled up to fill such a large gap. But that totally misses the point. It is not the case that liquids=CTL. Lots of things fall under the category of liquids: NGL, GTL, CTL, heavy oil synthetics, tar sand synthetics, sugar cane ethanol, biodiesel. Even CNG can be regarded as a liquid, in that it can be (and is) used to fuel vehicles and supplant demand for conventional oil.
So, that's the liquids dragon you pessimists have to slay. You have to show that the full ensemble of liquids can't fill the gap. Liquids=CTL is a straw man.
Not gonna happen. If you want to worry about CO2 worry about old-fashioned coal steam power plants.
Not to mention the coal availability constraint - with 70% efficiency 10 mbpd would require about 4 million of tons of coal per day or 1460 mln.of tons annualy. World coal production (2003) was 5408 mln.tons... This would be a 27% increase just for oil! I guess here HO would need to give a hand, but I don't think this is realistic to expect.
The biggest proposal I ever saw was for 200,000 bpd. Even that required multiple equipment trains (like multiple air separation plants). 300,000-350,000 bpd is a WAG for the biggest plant that would still have any economies of scale. Could be wrong.
Of course you're right that the mining probably couldn't keep up, unless again we had already started to expand it. Just another reason to disbelieve any big alternative liquids production ever coming online.
I agree with your assessment. IF the world must burn the remaining coal and tarsands, either as rock fuel or liquids: some kind of agreement needs to be reached that most of this energy goes directly into making biosolar infrastructure like PV Panels, windmills, tidal gen., bicycles, etc. It will be our very last chance to use detritus energy to ramp up a biosolar civilization.
Gaia may not even give us that chance.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Some (possibly large) fraction has to go into the energy-consuming parts of the infrastructure as well. What good to have PV panels that generate clean electricity if the transportation infrastructure is still dependent on gasoline and diesel and space heating is dependent on natural gas? If the end-state is much more electrified than today -- and if you believe in PV, wind, tidal and such then you do believe that, because electricity is what they produce -- the energy consuming infrastructure has to be converted as well. I believe that there's a real danger inherent in this larger view that we may take a path that precludes successfully reaching a sustainable end-state. That's the "siren song", if you will, of CTL and LNG: that the consuming infrastructure doesn't have to change.
I am very interested in evolutionary models of both the producing and consuming sides of the equation. Can anyone recommend sources of models that attempt to look at the interactions between those two aspects?
If you look closely at the first graph you'll see how Laherrere models each liquid individually. Noteworthy is the URR for crude less extra-heavy, 2000 Gb, the same number got by Deffeyes (know what method he uses?)
Hubbert's method is not supposed to work when you model several liquids at the same time or several discovery cycles for the same liquid, that's what Laherrere shows with the last graph.
I would advise you to read an older Laherrere's paper:
THE HUBBERT CURVE : ITS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES
Homework: apply the Hubbert Method to each discovery cycle in the UK and comment the results.
Laherrere's linearization graph has this epitaph:
You're trying to put something in Laherrere's mouth that he didn't say. If you want to do so, do it in your blog and leave it out of TOD.
This time he gave a connotation to Laherrere's work which isn't true. If he thinks that HL isn't worth he may say it, but not pretend that Laherrere thinks like him.
This forum is made of truth not lies.
I think some participants may be using English as a second language and this may be resulting in a set of interpretations at variance with their true intent. Pointing out that a statement may have been misconstrued is not the same as calling someone a liar.
The use of English may be excellent. Mais il y a des personnes qui emploient l'anglais comme deuxième langue. And that makes a considerable difference.
Speaking personnally, I find the great attraction of this site to be the diverse, multi-national, group of participants. Some of these persons may be hesitant to express their views due to the possibility of making a faux pas in communication. This is especially likely to be true if they come to be labelled as liars when they seek to express an alternate understanding, or seek to challenge another participants interpretation of the facts.
JD made a statement and IMO was a little selective with the facts supporting it (and with the interpretation of these facts). I don't see him being correct in that... lads reaction was aside from the impersonal tone and I don't think he was right to do that either... you presented JD's words as "opinion" and defended his right to support it - I would also agree on 80% with that; the other 20% is for the cases we have manipulative arguments. Most of the time it is unintended manipulation due to the authors preconceptions, but this doesn't change the fact, does it?
The purpose of using Hubbert Linearization (HL) is to give us an estimate of the area under the curve, ultimate recoverable reserves (Qt). As I described before, it's a gross simplification, but you can loosely compare oil reserves to water in a bottle. You can pour it out a low rate, all the way up to the maximum rate, without affecting the total volume of water in the bottle.
Khebab, using only pre-1970 Lower 48 production data, predicted post-1970 cumulative Lower 48 oil production using HL. Actual production was 99% of what HL predicted, through 2004.
Khebab, using only pre-1984 Russian production data, predicted post-1984 cumulative Russian oil production using HL. Actual production was 95% of what HL predicted, through 2004.
Now, the production profiles were vastly different, i.e., different rates of pouring out the water, but the rates did not affect the volume of water in the bottles.
This was not a case of curve fitting. Khebab is a careful objective scientist, and at my request he simply used the historial data to predict a produciton profile, that could then be compared to the actual production.
Deffeyes is predicting that we have used 50% of conventional crude + condensate recoverable resrves, and based on the above case histories, we have to assume that he is right, and all of the data that we are seeing right now suggest that he is probably right.
The HL method does not apply to nonconventional sources of oil, GTL on the light end and CTL on the heavy end. But all we are talking about doing by going to the end points is increasing our rate of extraction of fossil fuel resources, which are already being commercially exploited. IMO, nonconvetional oil will simply slow the rate of decline of our total oil supply.
As I pointed out in January, the Russian HL plot is suggesting a severe production decline ahead. I find it ironic, that just as we continue to get more evidence that Russia is going to have--as predicted by the HL method-- production problems, the HL method is described as being "completely worthless."
How severe can production declines be? Consider Cantarell, the second largest producing field in the world. Internal Pemex reports suggest a decline rate of perhaps more than 40% per year, which seems reasonable when one considers the fact that the remaining oil column of 825' is thining at the rate of about 300' per year.
Texas, the Lower 48, Total US, Russia and the North Sea have never equaled the production that they had in the vicinity of 50% of Qt. To argue against the HL method is to argue in favor of what we have never seen in large producing regions, i.e., conventional production increases past the 50% mark, in excess of the production in the vicinity of the 50% mark.
You can argue all you want to about the volume of liquids from nonconventional sources, but that is not relevant to the HL method.
Westexas, you're not digesting Laherrere's statement: "Oil demand is for all liquids. So the forecast of oil supply has to be given for all liquids."
The accuracy of your HL forecasts for conventional oil are irrelevant to the real world because the forecast of oil supply has to be given for all liquids.
I know it's tough to accept because you are so psychologically invested in the idea of an imminent crisis. But Laherrere is experienced in these matters, and you should heed his words. He got burned once before by neglecting the role of unconventional oil. If you're stubborn, you're going to end up "right" about a pedantic subset of liquids which no one cares about.
The only peak that truly matters is peak liquids.
Now that is a news flash. It had never occurred to me that no one cares about the conventional crude oil + condensate supply.
I have never denied that nonconvetional oil production will increase. It will. But one key point to keep in mind is that natural gas and coal can't be used twice. You can't move natural gas BTU's and coal BTU's to the liquids column and pretend that we have a net increase in the energy supply.
The central question is how fast total nonconventional oil and alternative energy supplies can be brought on line. That is why the cornucopians always argue reserves--not production rates. The Canadians themselves are only predicting an increase of about 2 mbpd from tar sands in about 10 years, when we will probably start losing about 2 to 4 mbpd in conventional production per year. Note that 2 mbpd increase is gross--not net--energy.
We simply cannot offset all of the declines in the big oil fields like Ghawar, Cantarell, Burgan and Daqing. Historically is has never happened in regions that have peaked, and it won't happen today because of incremental increases in production from noncoventional sources.
No one cares about Campbell's "regular conventional oil" -- except Campbell. Regular conventional oil peaked in 2004, and nobody even noticed because irregular unconventional oil took up the slack and then some.
So the important date is when all liquids peak and decline. But to calculate that, you need to linearize with liquids, not with oil, just like Laherrere did.
Of course, that's going to make things a lot more complicated. For example, what's the URR of ethanol or biodiesel?
At approximately $65.00 US per barrel, I'd say goddammed near everybody has noticed.
According to my model simulations 'Peak Oil' should now be occurring (within the 2006-2007 time frame [1]) and 'Peak Gas' will promptly follow suit in either 2008 or 2009 [2].
Put in a nutshell, Gazprom's present predicament is untenable. With a dwindling production based on declining major gas fields (and no fresh giant field on tap), the Russian gas monopolist will inevitably have to curtail its exports as it cannot (or rather dares not) cut domestic supplies (delivered at extreme-low prices which many indigenous consumers fail to pay). Thus, it will have to boost export prices in order to compensate for internal 'manque a gagner' and also hope to somehow lower external demand.
A.M. Samsam Bakhtiari,written over a month ago, right on the money. http://www.sfu.ca/~asamsamb/Peaks/PEAKS.htm
Gazprom has two main export market: (a) the CIS countries, and (b) Western Europe . It chose to put pressure first on its ' Orange ' CIS members. But it will eventually have to push all of them to pay higher prices before turning the screws on its 'bread-and-butter' Western EU clients.
The Confederation of British Industry [CBI] had always been skeptical of adequate gas supplies for the 2005-06 winter and has now been vindicated in the teeth of the Government's reassurances that Great Britain was "awash with gas" (as late as November 2005 [5]). The CBI is bound to be the major loser in this game...
Forgotten in the critique of WT, is the EROEI. Every "new"
liquid will be harder to turn into what it will replace, even as our "growth" is supposed to continue.
Thus the coming nuking of Iran, the Geo Washington, threatening Chavez, Castro, Obrador in the Carribean.
Demand Destruction is the only way out for the Uber Rich.
The catch-There is no Planet B.
James
In the case of the US48 peaking circa 1970, MKH hit it on the nose largely because it was just one piece of the world's production. As the US48 approached peak, there was plenty of other production and therefore no price increase that changes consumption patterns and financed R&D for alternatives and the search for non-conventional sources. We just bought oil from other places and went merrily along, so the US48 was able to follow its own peak curve with no market interference.
When you model the entire world you drag in a host of mitigating factors, most notably the market response to rising prices as you approach and pass the peak. And in this context "market response" includes the development and use of alternatives and the exploitation of non-conventional sources.
This is why I've been preaching for a long time that the "bumpy plateau" scenario was by far the most likely outcome: geology + economics = a slightly shorter and slightly delayed peak, and one that's much flatter. If things play out that way it's extremely good news, as that would give us a prolonged period of higher prices that would spur the transition away from oil consumption before the actual decline sets in.
Basically what Lahèrrere is saying is that the production mid-point will be several years after peak production because of technology and non conventional sources (the production curve will be skewed). I don't understand what is defining as extra-heavy oil (EH), I guess it's synfuel from tar sands + NGL. I'm having a hard time in believing that EH production alone will reach 40 mbpd in 2045. For instance, oil production from Canadian tar sands is planned to double in 2015 to reach only 2.0-2.5 mbpd. This small increase alone will require a huge investment in new infrastucture. I think he applied a HL fit on the EH production that gave him an URR of 1Tb for EH. The problem is that the EH production is very immature (<25% URR), in that case the uncertainty on the URR estimate is fairly large (about 10% to be correct within 10% of relative error).