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GAIA Host Collective
- Do we agree that hydrogen would be a chemical element?
- Do we agree that hydro-carbon fuels are essentially a mix of the two main chemical elements, hydrogen and carbon?
- Do we agree that it has been a long standing practice to find, gather and refine the hydrocarbon chemicals and use them as chemical fuel?
- Do we agree that the use of the term "fuel" refers to a relatively useful burnable chemical, and that it is the hydrogen that burns that makes it such?
- Do we agree that until the fuel is burned, it is only potential energy, whether it be wood, oil, gas, peat, tar sand, or whale blubber? This is why we would regard tar sand as potential fuel, and at this time, limestone is not.
- So when we say that hydrogen is only a "energy storage" not energy source, that is also true of any "fuel". Until it is gathered and in some way processed, it is not a power source?
- If we need energy, and do not have any "liquid fuel" source, can assume then that we can only use solar, wind, tidal, or other forms of sun driven power directly, or is it possible that there is a way to extract a usable liquid fuel from a common element on Earth?
- Can we assume that if we have NO readily available liquid fuel, water is a common store of hydrogen, which may be able to be extracted using some renewable energy imput, to make a desired liquid fuel?
- Can we assume that if that's the only way to get a portable liquid fuel, then humans have two choices: Either sit around on their lazy arse and say it cannot be done, and go back to Ken Deffeyes awaited "stone age by 2030", or get off our lazy arse and at least try to do it?
TENTH and final point: I am just glad some of your guys were not around at the birth of the industrial age. We wouldn't have had to worry about it's effects because you guys could have proved that IT COUND NEVER BE DONE.Point 9. is becoming of extreme importance: Here is the cutting edge of the discussion: If you believe for moral or philosophical reasons, that modern technical society SHOULD not exist, then the pursuit of hydrogen or any alternative is inmoral and incorrect. But this does not mean that it is a fanciful dream, or that it somehow violates the known laws of physics.
I would in short like to deal directly with Leanan's sentence:
"You might as well argue that we are going to run our economy off hydroelectric power. After all, water is extremely abundant.All we have to do is pump it uphill so we can run turbines with it when it comes back down."
I trust you see the error in comparing extraction of a chemical element from common materials (the birth of all chemistry in history) as different in not only degree but in kind from a perpetual motion machine, which is what you are describing. I am not an idiot, and appreciate least of all condenscending attitude, and will reply to such in like fashion. I will go ahead and recognize your insult, but do feel compelled to let you know that I am fully aware of it's intentionally non useful nature to this discussion.
Roger Conner known here as ThatsItImout
If they can vastly improve fuel cells, I could see hydrogen becoming the portable energy of the very rich. I can't see it being cheap enough for the average person, or even for a break-even transit system, except in places like Iceland, where they use cheap thermal energy to make hydrogen.
A lot of energy that could go towards heating homes could be diverted to making negative-EROEI hydrogen, just as NG is now being used to make synthetic oil from bitumen.
The Swiss got by in 1945 with enough oil to keep the US going for 19 minutes. A long stable democracy, good standard of living and quality of life.
A better way than liquid fuels to provide energy for transportation is via a wire.
Limitations in several specific areas (farm tractors, fishing trawlers, airplanes going accross bodies of water (hard to rail more than 35 miles underwater) but methanol will do just fine for those limited requirements if we totally run out of oil.
Hydrogen is 1) not a necessity and 2) not a very good choice. Methanol works much better for a "synfuel/energy carrier".