The Oil Drum | Thursday open thread

221 comments on Thursday open thread

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MillMan on April 6, 2006 - 3:37pm

Anyone know of any good websites with info on things like keeping a stash of food and other supplies in the wake of various urban disasters? I did some googling but I didn't come up with much that wasn't hysterical.

Yesterday I was reading a thread on this site while waiting for some code to compile, and the power went out. Heh.

During the hour long outage a few of my coworkers and I talked about the value of oil, efficient lightbulbs, natural gas shortages, and the like. Granted we're all electrical engineers, but really, we're regular people. Not everyone is clueless about these things.

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Leanan on April 6, 2006 - 3:46pm

Mormons are supposed to keep a year's supply of food for their families. You might try Googling LDS sites. They've got some good tips on building your stores on a budget.

And here's a government site:

http://pandemicflu.gov/plan/checklists.html

It's on preparing for bird flu, but much of the information would be useful for other emergencies, too.

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Mad Maxout on April 6, 2006 - 10:54pm

And Mormons are heavy into childbirth. I guess they don't care about their childrens' future. :( I put Mormons into the fundamentalistic catagory. Joseph Smith of the 1800s was a charlitan par excellance, and made himself a "church" to have himself multiple wives a la polygamy. Yecch. And of course, people fell for it and Utah is crawling with the descendants of the result. No good. And they oppose drinkable ethanol.

As if Peak Oil wan't a big enough challenge, the fact that most people go on Faith and trust in clerics (any religion will do) we are in for some nasty times ahead. The mormons are a perfect case, no more or less than the moslems. HELLO!!!

Oil is going to decline and no amount of praying is going to load gas into that car! Outside of the mormons, there is another problem with slowing population production. Some women think of having kids in a way like generating free-to-get but high-maintenance pets. You heard right. I was talking to a lady and after I said I was gladder and gladder every day I never had kids she described the joy of seeing kids who share her properties as in colour of eyes, shape of body, and so on. I walked away shaking my head, and that was after saying America is going to hell in a handbasket.

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Dan Ur on April 6, 2006 - 11:37pm

I would not pray for gas to be loaded in my car. I would pray for stamina and trust that I can get from point A to point B on my own two feet.

I have always maintained that if asked, Jesus would still walk. Not drive anything we have today.

As to the Lady and here kids, So there is another reason we have a messed up society and kids get to do anything they want to do.

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expat on April 7, 2006 - 1:54am

'I have always maintained that if asked, Jesus would still walk. Not drive anything we have today.'

That is actually an interesting thought. The idea of driving himself is one thing, but would he use something powered to spare his feet or go more quickly between two places?

I could certainly imagine Jesus doing that. I doubt he would refuse to use a bicycle, for example, or hopping a ride on the back of a farm tractor or something going between towns. As for water vessels, obviously he would have no problem, so he would not need to use aircraft for any reason to travel. No idea if Jesus would or would not fly, or use rail though.

The idea of having one of humanity's more persuasive and respected moral teachers return to our current world and then thinking about it, though, would generally be idle distraction. But the question of how such a teacher would travel fits well into much of what is considered here.

What a measure of the difference between two epochs in human existence. And somehow, since peak oil is also essentially about changing epochs, worth a moment to reflect on in those terms alone.

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AlanfromBigEasy on April 7, 2006 - 12:35am

Salt Lake City and Denver (also with high LDS population) are two of the three US cities most serious about transforming themselves away from the car. (Miami is the other).

In 2007, SLC is likely to have a vote to triple taxes in order to build their aggressive light rail & streetcar plans in less than 30 years. Denver is well on the way to building a 117 mile Urban Rail system (a mix of commuter & light rail).

The LDS culture is much better prepared for Peak Oil (with community, mutual support, an emphasis on saving & preparing, etc.) than the rest of the US.

I am not Mormon, but I find your prejudice "distasteful", to be polite.

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GeoPoet on April 7, 2006 - 9:16am

Mad Maxout -

I wish you would just lay off stereotyping. You could pick on Baptists just as easily about ethanol, or Scientologists about the real basis of their beliefs or Catholics for their abhorrence of birth control. I know lots of LDS folks, and for the most part, they are a lot like everybody else, with the same worries, fears and hopes. Point of fact, if you strip out the religious stuff, most of us are VERY MUCH alike. We all want to survive, enjoy life and let our kids carry our genes forward.

Throwing out the "religion card" is just about like throwing out the "race card" - all it does is alienate people who might, just possibly, save your life some day...one never knows how the wheel turns!

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LaStrega on April 6, 2006 - 3:53pm

MillMan, a good starting point is the Mormon website, they have food and necessities listed:

http://www.providentliving.org/channel/1,11677,1706-1,00.html

Francesca

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RickD on April 6, 2006 - 4:13pm

I read books and researched the Internet. The best thing that I learned was: Store what you eat, and eat what you store.

I finally ended up making my own spreadsheet.

We are attempting to stock 3 months of food, convering 50% of our protein, calories and fiber. The food has to last 6 months, be routinely eaten during this time and be cooked on a propane camping stove (no oven).

Think of things like: Oatmeal, soup mixes, rice mixes, canned beans (4 bean salad), Pork and Beans, spaghetti, pasta sauce, raisins, pancake mix, peanut butter, crackers, etc, etc. Things that you like to eat...not somebody else.

Don't forget to store water. We are collecting water in 2 liter pop bottles.

It really does not cost anything. Just buy the stuff in quantity when it is on sale. As long as you eat everything and rotate it, you are actually saving money.

Easy to do if you store what you are currently eating.

Rick

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Dan Ur on April 6, 2006 - 11:57pm

i am a fan of beans and some grains, and make my own power crunch granola. A good way to increaset he protien is to get Whey Protien powders, In your favorite flavors. They have the highest protein amount that the body can absorb, even more so than soy beans. After all they are a milk protein. You can get them in organic or who knows what kind. You can have several in the IsoPure line that are really great for gastric by-pass patients. I know I have tried them while preparing them form the x-wife.

I would suggest the staples like sugar, dry milk powders and a small supply of spices that you normally use. I have a traveling kitchen, and 24 of my closest friends from my spice cabinet. Under proper conditions some spices can last a long time flavor wise. Especially if you pack them in vinegars, oils, and sugar or hoeny.

After I move I won't be roughing it, but I will be living a lot more rough than I am now. Though I wash my clothes in my bthroom sink in cold water and save the wash water and rinse waters for future use, Cycling the wash water till its up to a certain amount of dirty, then i either drain it or feed it to othr plants

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GeoPoet on April 7, 2006 - 9:28am

RickD -

If you live in a house, you might consider buying a large plastic cistern. If water goes, then toilets won't work and things get "campgroundish" pretty fast. Water is one of the things that really keeps things civilized.

I bought two 650 gallon plastic water storage tanks for $450. They are green to keep light out and prevent algae from growing inside. I replaced my metal gutters (which are zinc coated and use lead screws) on two runs with plastic ones, and these drain into the cisterns. Each cistern is set 2 ft off the ground for water pressure, and I have nandinas planted around them to keep the water cool and hide the ugly. There is a coarse screen trapping crud in the gitters and a very fine everted cone screen at the opening draining into each tank.

Clorox or chlorine tablets for a swimming pool can purify the water, and you can buy water clarifiers to clear most of the solids out, or just run it through a filter system.

I did this because we have been hit by droughts in the past few years, and last summer the water got so bad from local wells that it ran brown for a time. Now I don't really have to worry too much about interruptions...

A cheaper way might be to recycle some chemical barrels, as long as they are for soap or other things that will not adversely affect water quality. But once your water goes, gallon containers disappear really fast - especially in summer!!

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Doomer Brad on April 6, 2006 - 4:13pm

You can visit this website: http://athagan.members.atlantic.net/Index.html

The food storage faq (in PDF format) is several pages long and is pretty comprehensive.

I also like Peggy Layton's Emergency Food Storage & Survival Handbook," as well as the "Crisis Preparedness Handbook" by Jack Spigarelli.

Hope you find these resources helpful.

Brad

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MillMan on April 6, 2006 - 4:52pm

Thanks for the link, that's pretty much what I was looking for.

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Don Sailorman on April 6, 2006 - 4:29pm

Beware of people who want to sell you expensive stuff.
May I suggest the literature on cruising sailboats? The problem of provisioning a small boat for, say a round-the-world nonstop single-handed cruise are similar to that of provisioning a home for times when it might not be advisable to leave the house for a few weeks or months.

See, for example, the classic GYPSY MOTH CIRCLES THE WORLD by Sir Francis Chichester and the excellent THE CARE AND FEEDING OF SAILING CREW by Lin and Larry Pardey. If you will be cooking on a camp stove, (and it may come to this), I also recommend THE ONE-BURNER GOURMET by Harriett Baker which has a bunch of tasty and easy recipes.

Also, in storing food, I cannot overemphasize the importance of having stuff that people actually will eat, especially children. Thus staples such as graham crackers ($1 per box at Wal-Mart), peanut butter and honey are good.

Don't forget to have a few hundred gallons of potable water. These can be stored in inexpensive containers that most people throw away, such as empty rum bottles:-). Also, a variety of cooking fuels and stoves is good to have along with cheap charcoal grills, charcoal briquets and wood.

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MillMan on April 6, 2006 - 4:47pm

Right now I have a stash of food in a plastic storage bin under by bed, it would probably last me 2 weeks. The idea was to cover short term social hysteria that causes runs on grocery stores, for example. I'm thinking about expanding it out to three months, which for an individual probably isn't a huge amount of food. The problem, though, is that I live in an apartment, and while I do have space in the basement I don't want to lug a lot of food around when I move, which I tend to do every 12-18 months.

I will check out the one burner gourmet, I do a bit of camping so it's probably a good book to check out regardless. And I'll probably buy a stash of isobutane, too.

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Don Sailorman on April 6, 2006 - 4:59pm

Isobutane is convenient but expensive. If budget is no constraint, just go to REI and spend about six grand.

However, consider alcohol as a fuel: Sailboats often use it, because it has the huge advantage that water will put out an alcohol fire--but not a gasoline one. Kerosene also has much to recommend it--especially cost, and the fact that its fumes seldom explode.

Consider various scenarios with care. For example, I have lots of friends and relatives who have informed me that when TSHTF, they are heading right for my place. Fortunately, these friends include various U.S. Marines, members of the Rangers 10th Mountain Division, retired Delta Force guys, etc., and althought they do eat a lot, they are most welcome. In addition to having a large house I also have two large cabin tents, because I believe in hospitality and sharing;-)

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MillMan on April 6, 2006 - 5:18pm

I didn't mean to imply that I'm going to buy 3 months worth of isobutane, again, a big consideration here is storage in a place I don't own. I have a few "military survivalist" friends out there too, but sadly they don't live anywhere near me. I suppose I could try fighting my way Mad Max style to their place on west coast when TSHTF.

Hmm, on second thought, it wouldn't be too tough to stash several gallon jugs of kerosene in the basement.

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Oilrig medic on April 6, 2006 - 8:39pm

Don, another great item would be a .22LR bolt action. The rifle is cheap and so is the ammo. The round is quite and will not travel far. Most game in north america (except maybe boar and elk) can be felled with an accurate shot..
Matt

I'm sure you have a rifle already but this is a user freindly one for our non gun owning colleagues.

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Don Sailorman on April 6, 2006 - 9:09pm

I am a big fan of single-shot weapons. One shot, one kill.

Also, they are cheap.

BB and pellet guns are good for training and some can be used effectively to hunt for little critters.

.22 long rife excellent, and ammo keeps for several decades if kept cool and dry--always have a few 500 round "bricks."

.410 is good for running rabbits etc., and with slug more effective on big game than .44 magnum in handgun. Can get combo guns, .22 long-rifle over .410, good value, very handy, easy for small women and young people to handle.

.223 good for longer ranges, little recoil

Do not waste ammo on elderly Republican lawyers;-) Meat is tough and stringy.

IMO handguns are relatively ineffective compared to long guns, and they require constant training to maintain proficiency--a waste of money.

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MillMan on April 6, 2006 - 9:39pm

What about close quarters urban combat when trying to defend my stash?

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Twilight on April 6, 2006 - 9:49pm

A community with a vested interest in your survival, just as you have in theirs, is the best security.

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Mad Maxout on April 6, 2006 - 11:15pm

For weapons that are good for Mad Max -ish cases, try a pistol-grip crossbow with a salvaged laser pointer hose-clamped to it. The advantage is that arrows will be easy to make and can kill - including shoot through bullet-resistant vests. Plus that red dot makes for getting a point across. The drawback is having to salvage the batteries for the laser pointer. 21st Century meets Midieval, a poetically perfect weapon. Second drawback is short range even with aligned laser pointer. (50 meters max range on a good day)

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Twilight on April 7, 2006 - 7:11am

Wow, talk about doomerism! I'm not planning on total societal collapse. The money one spends on guns can be spent on other things much more likely to be needed. I may buy some ammo for my grandfather's old deer rifle or the .22 I got as a kid (it's at my parents house still!), as it would not cost much, but that's it. In the societal reaction I'm expecting, there will be plenty of weapons - in the hands of the authorities.

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odograph on April 7, 2006 - 9:25am

It's kinda sad when a "moderate" peak oil discussion slide off to survivalism. And that's what it is, when you talk about large caches of food and guns ...

In "fooled by randomness" Taleb talks about an interesting effect. Maybe it's a framing effect, I don't know. When people are asked to rank the higher probability, a thousand deaths due to a disaster, or a thousand deaths due to an earthquake(*) ... many will choose "earthquake" despite the fact that it is of course a "disaster."

Taleb is kind of moving fast and recounting more serious studies, so he doesn't go into detail, but apparently the mental affect is that we get fascinated by outcomes that we can visualize. We are attracted to those ideas that make a compelling internal mental movie.

Let's face it guys, "Mad Max" makes a better movie than "The Day Gas Sold For $3.25"

I think this is something I've felt myself, that I sort of play with the idea of a bad scenario and how I'd deal with it ... but I try to remind myself now that this might be a human mental effect (a bounded rationality) ... and that I should probably be thinking about the more likely, but less dramatic scenarios.

* - interestingly the same question with "violence" and "terrorism" give higher scores to terrorism, which might explain the American public fixation, and the political hay to be made off that fixation.

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MillMan on April 7, 2006 - 10:45am

odograph, there are three things here: one, my investment in a small stash of food and a cheap .22 (the .22 may not happen anyway) is pretty minimal in terms of money and time, and two, part of this is just interest on my part into how other people think about extreme scenarios. The third item is the last paragraph below.

Even when my modern American life is good it is relatively mundane, so romanticizing Mad Max scenarios of fighting urban barbarians brings a bit of excitement. Of course, if that scenario really did come to pass, I would be praying to every diety known to give me my "mundane" life back. Also, it's easier mentally to be a fatalist than to work towards solutions. I do struggle with that sometimes.

At the same time, with my technical backround, I can increasingly see the intricate web of processes that have to flow smoothly every day to allow modern society to function, and as time moves on, we're using technological advances to build more risk into the system instead of less. The benefit is more profit and cushier lifestyles, the risk is that it takes less damage to any given process to cause cascade failures in other areas. So while I know statistically death by car accident is by far my greatest daily risk, I have to assuage the worry in my mind stemming from what I just talked about. Thus my little stash of food.

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odograph on April 7, 2006 - 10:59am

Nothing wrong with having reasonable emergency supplies, I was really speaking to the way the thread in general drifted to the more survivalist.

And we should probably be aware of how these scenarios shape our actions. People buy SUVs for safety reasons, but suffer a higher incidence of death, owning an SUV. Case in point.

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odograph on April 7, 2006 - 11:08am

BTW, why wouldn't you see the "intricate web" as "higher redundancy?"

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Oil CEO on April 6, 2006 - 9:53pm

AK-103

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Oil CEO on April 6, 2006 - 10:45pm

AK-USA. Check out the viddy's in their "gallery."

This is from the Russian American Armory Company. Rednecks from Indiana putting their engineering skill into the 7.62 Round. Doesn't get any better than this.

http://www.ak-103.com/gallery.html

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Don Sailorman on April 6, 2006 - 10:55pm

My friends mostly carry caliber .45 automatic pistols, cocked, with cartridge in chamber and safety on.

Sailorman is more proficient with blades in close quarters than noisy and expensive firearms. Long ago, teenage homicidal psychopaths (aka sociopaths and anti-social personality disorder types) taught me that if you cut off a guy's trigger finger, you spoil his aim. Also, knife is faster than gun and easier to conceal. Cutlass (i.e. expensive machete with 3/16" thick fine Swedish steel blade sharpened well enough to shave with) is also very handy to have--for trimming tree branches, etc.

Again, big problem with handguns is constant practice needed for proficiency; it is a use-it-or-lose it skill. On the other hand, cowboy action shooting is fun, and there is nothing faster than an Old-West style gunfighter rig combined with, say a .44-40 Ruger Vaquero, to accompany your Winchester 1873 lever-action carbine (or clone of same).

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Dan Ur on April 7, 2006 - 12:10am

i train with a 6 foot iron Gas pipe, that has end caps on the threads at both ends. Using it like a staff weapon, anything not shooting me with a gun is mush in a radius of 5 feet all around me. I train for stamina, I wanted to train like I was getting back into mountain climbing. I use it 5 times a day and up to 30 to 40 minute sessions, when I have time. I can slip the silver looking wally world special free weights over the ends and screw the cap back on and do the same mucsle toning and building exercises. I am up to 4- 2,5 pound wieghts. sliding them to either end of the pipe they make a great strength inhancing exercise, I can control the pipe wen with this heavy weight on it.

I can also do many other mountain climbing exercises and i don't think I will be up on a mountain much again.

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Dan Ur on April 7, 2006 - 7:18am

Sorry about all the typos, I was falling asleep while posting. I had filled my vans back section which is roughly 4 feet by 3 feet by 4 feet and the sections above the other folded seats with green tree trimmings twice yesterday. The last load so heavy that my shocks were low. Some of the pieces 2 strong men, Someone else and myself, could barely get in the van. I was going to wait till today to off load it, but the bottoming out, worried me, so I took it by my friends house and off loaded it all by myself. Well in the last 2 weeks I have gotten her at least a cord of green wood for next season. Ok its supposed to rain again today, no yard sale.

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Mad Maxout on April 6, 2006 - 11:08pm

It's true that water will put out an ethanol fire. But it's nowhere near like a wood fire. Ordinary E40 booze will burn. Not so great, but drinkable E40 will burn. Push come to shove, drinkable E30 will burn too, like Jaegermeister. You need a bunch of water to dilute that booze fire to drop the concentration to where it won't burn. Ironically, BEER (dE03) foams up like airport firefighting foam and can be used for booze fires. An overpressurised beer keg could make for a great ethanol fire suppression system. Just pressurise with CO2 and let the dE03 foam up!

When I was in the US Navy, I noticed how beer foams up like airport fire fighting foam and dreamed up the idea of using a fire suppression system using ordinary beer. Easy to brew up, and easy to pressurise with its own CO2. Perfect low-tech Class B fire putter-outer. Fun note: "airport fire fighting foam" is my interpretation of what the Navy calls AFFF - Aqueous Film Forming Foam. AFFF in this case are a match.

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odograph on April 6, 2006 - 5:18pm

I'm more concerned with earthquakes here in California than a fast oil crash, but I go with the "store what you eat" method. White rice lasts a long time (and Trader Joe's has it packed in thick 3lb plastic bags). I've got a backpacking stove and a gallon of coleman gas lasts a really long time. I may get tired of black beans and rice ... but I'll be ok. ;-0

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DuncanK on April 6, 2006 - 8:21pm

With respect to your power-outage, you guys might want to consider switching your desktops over to laptops. If your central network infrastructure (servers, switches, hubs, etc.) are powered from a UPS, then you can 'weather' any blackouts that are under an hour. They also use heaps less power (depending on whether you use a monitor or not).

Long-term you can also look at powering your essential server-room equipment off PV-solar powered batteries, with additional low-cost vertical wind turbines on the roof.

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MillMan on April 6, 2006 - 8:58pm

Most of us do have laptops, the problem is that they powered down the server room after 5 minutes, and I was working with files on the network at the time.

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Liz on April 6, 2006 - 10:49pm

After Katrina, an excellent series on all aspects of disaster preparedness was posted on dailyKos by AlphaGeek. This is the link to the conclusion, Part 5, which includes links to the earlier parts. It doesn't include many specifics on food supplies but covers risk assessment and planning, communications, food storage, water purification, shelter, light and power, medical supplies, security, sanitation, etc. etc. It includes recommendations on specific gear and links to additional resources. The comments to each article contain a lot of info as well. I've been using this series as the basis for our family's planning.

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Don Sailorman on April 6, 2006 - 11:26pm

Good info, but pricey.

I'd emphasize water, and also a multi-purpose tool such as the Woodman's Pal (not cheap but of excellent quality, and time-tested for more than sixty years).

In regard to weapons for personal security, without extensive training they are worse than useless. My inclination is to rely mostly on highly trained friends and relatives, and also useful multipurpose tools such as an axe or a machete.

Shovels and entrenching tools are very good to have.

Do not forget large quantities of toilet paper, especially if you have a lot of females in the family. High quality paper towels are also very good to have in quantity.

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CreoleGenius on April 6, 2006 - 11:52pm

Don Sailorman;

You are the first other person I've seen who has brought up acquisitions
of the most valuble commodity. Toilet paper is MONEY! Any person truly serious about preparations has already stored mass quantities of TPBUs
(toilet paper barter units). A single BU will one day purchase a meal or a gallon of gas. Why?, you say. Because toilet paper is the most addictive substance known to modern man. And who, do you say, is so addicted that they will trade other very valuable commodities for a single, two-ply,
extra absorbent roll? White women. Toilet paper is more addicitve than tobacco, more addictive than air conditioning, more necessary than booze.
White women will eventually sell their bodies for rolls, because their senses
of propriety and vanity will overwhelm their need to eat. I have stored over 1.5K BUTP. Build yourself a nice metal shed and fill it up. The stuff lasts forever, at least until its been used!

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Don Sailorman on April 7, 2006 - 12:01am

Also, shop the specials, can sometimes be purchased for half price.

My women friends mostly prefer Charmin Ultra, and whatever women want, that is Sailorman's policy, that they get it.

Men do not mind cheap toilet paper, but women's delicate bottoms must have the finest;-)

BTW, toilet paper is a good inflation hedge.

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Freyr on April 7, 2006 - 1:34am

Squat toilets at 1 liter a flush and no toilet paper, just have to practice the Asian way. Hand washing is not optional!

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fleam on April 7, 2006 - 2:38am

I've read a bit on the "humanure" system and it sounds like a good one, you don't need to dig the stuff up and use it in your garden but if there's a way to turn shit into gold they've found it.

My own personal theory is that fungi in the wood are doing the real magic, it's all good.

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Liz on April 7, 2006 - 1:54pm

Actually, AlphaGeek covers a range of solutions in each category, from the high-end down to the improvised.

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Richard on April 7, 2006 - 1:36am

How about leaving them in the supermarket?

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jokuhl on April 7, 2006 - 1:37am

You might look up Steven Harris and "Knowledge Publications"..
Pretty Basic-seeming guy in the midwest (Chicago area) who has a lot of Practical DIY notions about Civil Defense and Preparedness, Homemade Energy Solutions, Hydrogen, Solar, etc.

He hawks a few books and DVD's on the stuff, but also provides a free-stuff area, too. Might strike you as a little goofy, but he tosses out a lot of interesting thoughts. I have his 'Sunshine to Dollars' booklet, and he does pack a lot in there. (Whole section on Solar water sterilization, and how critical that setup would be during a crisis.. ask our pals in the Miss.Delta)

I also looked up a bunch of Prep Lists from Red Cross and other sources, so it's def. out there.

After 9/11, when my wife watched that nightmare from 50 blocks to the north in her own officetower, 30fl. above Penn Station, I made her a "Hey! Bag", to be her best buddy in an office crisis. Just a quick-grab with water, clifbar, flashlight, money, maybe a kerchief, knife etc, your last backup CD from the 'puter.. all the stuff you'd want to have assembled if you had to run (in the dark and smoke,) that MIGHT give you a chance, or at least get to keep the things that would be gone if there was no office (!!) to come back to. Idea Works for home & car too.

Bob

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Dan Ur on April 7, 2006 - 7:31am

Might strike you as a little goofy, but he tosses out a lot of interesting thoughts. I have his 'Sunshine to Dollars' booklet, and he does pack a lot in there. (Whole section on Solar water sterilization, and how critical that setup would be during a crisis.. ask our pals in the Miss.Delta)
...........

Part of any survival is how to find, eat for, make , and store water in the outdoors whereever you are. I have recently found Chia Seed to be a good source of thrist quenching additives to several bottles of water in my fridge. Chia Seeds are used today in Mexico, and Have been used for thousands of years in the hot southern states as a food and thrist quenching drink. It seems to work for about 2 times long than just water.

You have to sort the seeds for dirt and other plant items. Then you soak 2 tsp per pint of water. The form a gelatious shell over each seed and drinking them is like drinking lumpy jello. I keep a bottle in the fridge for heavy working on hot days. Yesterday it hit 85 degrees here in Huntsville.

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