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116 comments on Does the Public Transit Model Still Work?

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totoneila on April 8, 2006 - 12:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hello TODers,

Or imagine a pedal-powered commuter train of thirty riders in a highly aerodynamic bullet on steel wheels to lower rolling resistance to a minimum:

From WIKIPEDIA again:
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Even at moderate speeds, most cycling energy is spent in overcoming aerodynamic drag, which increases with the square of speed; therefore, power needs increase approximately with the cube of speed.

Typical speeds for bicycles are 16 to 32 km/h (10 to 20 mph). On a fast racing bicycle, a reasonably fit rider can ride at 50 km/h (30 mph) on flat ground for short periods. The highest speed ever officially attained on the flat, without using motor pacing and wind-blocks, is by Canadian Sam Whittingham, who in 2002 set a 130.36 km/h (81.00 mph) record on his highly aerodynamic faired recumbent bicycle. This stands as the official record for all human-powered vehicles.
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Sam, obviously a world class sprinter, had to break his own wind, and suffered the full effects of drag.  But a bullet train would share the frontal wind resistance and the final drag over thirty riders allowing them a much easier pedaling effort.  In other words, for the same individual effort of going 10mph on an unfaired rubber-tired bicycle, the thirty man team might be able to cruise at 30-35 mph-- which is far faster than most commuting rush hour speeds!

Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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triphop on April 8, 2006 - 1:30am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
A great big connected peloton.  Hmm - hazardous connecting bikes together.  What you could have is a big moving wind drag (like sail), and all the bikes get in the dam behind it.  Move at constant speeds - 10mph. Then you co-ordinate the intersections intelligently.

The problem remains - trucks.  Then the intersections have to be really smart.

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totoneila on April 8, 2006 - 1:46am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hello TripHop,

No, think more wildly.  Thirty recumbents on a four steel wheel frame, but only 2 or 3 ft high, same width, fully enclosed like the Japanese bullet train, but no gaps.  Frontal resistance and trailing drag minimized. Dedicated rail path with no intersections.  

When I ride my bicycle, I try my best to synchronize with the streelights so I do not have to use my brakes--I HATE scrubbing off my own energy.  Those pedal commuters who have to cover a longer distance would welcome a 'chain gang' effort to reduce the required energy vs. covering this distance alone.

Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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triphop on April 8, 2006 - 2:07am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
assembling and disassembly (start/stop) would be an issue if there was any kind of connection.  Magnetic, possibly.  It could be done.  As for the streetlight synchronization - not too hard for automanous vehicles linked to the road system.

My system would have these sails moving to and fro and people accelerate to them from the curb and break from them in a converse fashion.  Dynamic - riders join and leave.  Hills present a problem - and thats where your powered system would excel.

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Mad Maxout on April 11, 2006 - 12:36am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
A resurgence of pedal propulsion will save energy and cut obesity. But a "devil's advocate" can point out the 10 calories of petroleum per calorie of food made. I'm sure an anti-bicycle person will take that and motor off with it.

Bike use is a lot better for energy consumption than car use, but it would be interesting to take the 10-1 ag conversion into account. My point is there is no free lunch with the energy. Your theoretical pedal train has one problem. At the start of the trip it will need electric motor assist becuse there are few passengers to pedal. Pedal plus batteries? (store extra pedal power when full)

Bicycles have the same problem of motorcycles: It's a 2-wheel balancing device. Ice can cause a car to go into a flat spin, but 2-wheel devices wreck right on the spot. Usually, you can recover from a spin when your car starts to yaw, but bikes fall down, not yaw. Fortunately for bicycles you are going slower.

A self-solving problem is how lots of people are now badly out of shape. Not for long! :)

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Donal on April 11, 2006 - 8:28pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Stability is tough problem in HPVs. Upright delta trikes don't handle turns too well, and even the stable recumbent trikes both are less visible and offer lesser visibility to the rider. I haven't tried a quadracycle yet, but if I ever get to Tennessee, I'll stop by Rhoades Car.

EVs at least have the weight of batteries to add stability.

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Mad Maxout on April 11, 2006 - 11:17pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Human-driven vehicles are too light to add stability in wind. A trike will blow over with a nice gust. But the two-wheel balancing ones are least stable. A trike can be outfitted with small motor and low-lying batteries to stabilise it. So can a bike but it's still inherently unstable.

Instability is the major deterrent to scooters and motorcycles. The second is exposure to weather. Cold weather sure deters motorcyclists! But sooner or later gas prices will have to deter driving cars. The scooter could end up being the choice of the working poor who must still commute. And eventually, the bicycle. Public transit in suburbs will remain unviable for some time if not for good. Bike to buses? Possible.

I've covered the issue of escalating gas prices on ordinary commuters in other threads. I used examples with actual cases with coworkers living gallons away. Any step away from the car is easally called a step down in living standards. You either use up more time to commute or expose yourself to danger or both. (car > bus: time, car > motorcycle: danger, car > bicycle: time + danger)

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AlanfromBigEasy on April 12, 2006 - 12:21am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
As a single example, about 90% of Miami's (Dade County) population will be within 3 miles (many within a mile or two, and almost none past 4 miles) of a station for their "Subway in the Sky" when their 103 mile system is completed.  Local financing is in place, but about 25 years yet to go since the feds cut matching from 80% to 50%.

If the average Miamian lives 1.8 miles from a station, biking to the station, parking or taking a fold-up bike, seems QUITE viable.

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Mad Maxout on April 12, 2006 - 3:20am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Why won't the Fed provide more money? (I know, it's rhetorical by now) Becuse it might help people who aren't rich! No reason the Miami's proposed L can't be built provided it's not ridiculously high-tech. A normal L, yes, but it's a monorail or other amusement park style thing it's aptly named  as it'll be pie in the sky.

One thing. If a lot of transit capacity is needed cheap, there are the old fashioned yellow school bus! No A/C but windows can be opened! That would be the "Cuban method" of ramping up transit cheap. Use what you already have, since the Fed's priority is the No Billionaire Left Behind tax cuts and gratuitous wars.

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Donal on April 12, 2006 - 12:48pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I just found out that my bike dealer is getting a few ZEM quadracycles in this month, so maybe I can try one of them:

www.zemusa.com

He doesn't have much use for Rhoades Cars.

Lightfoot claims their semi-upright utility trikes are as stable as any quad:

http://www.lightfootcycles.com/index.htm

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116 comments on Does the Public Transit Model Still Work?

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