48 comments on On Mining Energy, Chinese Coal and Wisconsin Wind
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48 comments on On Mining Energy, Chinese Coal and Wisconsin Wind
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I guess all those mountain tops that had been dumped into rivers and streams were put back into their original mountain shapes, the rivers restored to their original beauty, the fish kept to one side and then returned, the animals likewise, the leachate all carefully collected then returned to the mountain. Yeah, those pesky environmentalists, always wanting the good-hearted miners to restore the environment. Well, pesky environmentalist, just look at this park-like setting that used to be a wilderness area, a place where black bear roamed, trout were found, we made it even better. See, there's a golf course, and a municipal dump and a housing development consisting of McMansions, replete with McDonald's.
The American swoons. "Why THANK YOU, Mr. Miner!!! You make my heart go all atwitter when you show them pesky environmentalists just how much you care!!!"
I was raised in an area that was mined without any environmental controls in the early 1900's. The area was left cratered and desolate, with the river running bright orange every spring from the mine runoff. It took a century for the wildlife to come back. Of course looks can be deceiving, since the area is still toxic to human. My home town is a cancer node and I've watched about a lot of people die horrible deaths.
As long as we live in an industrial civilization there will be mining.
Oaksmoke: Don't know anyone who lives on the old mine sites, but the minerals that drew the miners in the first place tend to end up in the drinking water even in undisturbed areas.
Civilization was a lot of fun while it lasted.
On the bright side, I will not live along enough to fully experience this hell hole we used to call the earth.
The land has been restored, the air is much cleaner, and the buildings have also been cleaned and restored. I can remember, at the pub, men talking about the wonder of being paid almost as much to work at the local chocolate factory as they had been paid at the pit, and being able to see the sun between Sunday and Friday. I have posted pictures, and could also post pictures from the hills were my great . . .great grandparents mined which are now considered to be moorland to be protected from the ugliness of wind turbines.
There are parts of southern Illinois where houses are built and orchards grow on the old spoil banks, and fish are found in the water that fills the valleys between them.
I am aware of the problems that exist in China, which is in many ways going through the issues that confronted Europe after the second World War, when nations had to be brought back from the destruction of that war.
However, to neglect the strides that have been made from those times, and the technologies and legislation that now significantly reduces the long-term impacts of mining is to deny reality. The Chinese Government recognizes that they have problems, and are working to solve the problem, but in the present situation the demands for energy to build the plants that supply the rest of the world with cheaper goods, is driven to a level that limits what they can do.
And while coal is part of their answer they are also aligning supplies of oil and natural gas into the future, that while improving their environment, concurrently reduce the supplies that are going to be available to the United States, and Europe. It is a concern that I have posted about before, and will likely again.
With these, China can, I think, reduce their reliance on coal.
If approved, the Zhuyangxi and Xiaonanhai hydropower projects would bring to four the number of dams spanning the central section of China's longest river.
Gezhouba, completed in 1988, was the first dam to block the Yangtze. Forty kilometres further upstream, construction of the concrete dam at the Three Gorges project, which stretches for 2.3 kilometres across the river, is to be
completed in May. (All parts of the mammoth project are due to be finished by 2009.)
Cai Qihua, director of the Changjiang [Yangtze] Water Resources Commission, recently led an inspection tour to the proposed Xiaonanhai and Zhuyangxi dam sites, the Chongqing Morning Post reported. Xiaonanhai is located 40 kilometres upstream of metropolitan Chongqing (and 650 kilometres upstream of the Three Gorges dam), while Zhuyangxi is 140 km upstream of Chongqing.
The design institute of the CWRC, which was also the principal designer of the Three Gorges project, has begun doing design work on both of the proposed new dams.
Xiaonanhai, the smaller of the two projects, with one gigawatt of installed generating capacity, would be built first, China News Service (Zhongxinshe) reported. Zhuyangxi would have a generating capacity of 3 gigawatts, cost US$3.75 billion, and be built between 2009 and 2016, the Chongqing Morning Post reported.
At least 21 large dams are also planned or under construction on the Jinsha River, as the upper Yangtze is called. The four biggest projects (Xiluodu, Xiangjiaba, Baihetan and Wudongde) are being constructed by the company building the Three Gorges dam, and are slated to have a combined installed capacity of 38.5 gigawatts, twice that of Three Gorges.
Apart from producing power, the four dams are designed to tackle a serious problem facing the Three Gorges reservoir: They are supposed to help block silt and prevent a dangerous buildup of sediment behind the Three Gorges dam.
The construction of more than 100 large dams on the upper Yangtze has already worsened the flood risk on the river, a Chinese expert told the Fourth World Water Forum in Mexico City yesterday [Mar 21].
Cheng Xiaotao of the Beijing-based China Institute of Water Resources and Hydropower Research said the dams were causing longer-lasting and higher floods.
He advocated shifting from flood control to the non-structural approaches of flood management.
(World Water Forum Bulletin, Mar 22)
Fact box: YANGTZE / JINSHA DAMS
YANGTZE: Two dams currently span the river.Plans for two more have just been announced
Dam Location Size (GW) Status
Gezhouba Hubei 2.7 built
Three Gorges Hubei 18.2 under construction/being commissioned
Zhuyangxi Chongqing 3 proposed
Xiaonanhai Chongqing 1 proposed
JINSHA: Below, five of the more than 20 large dams planned for the Jinsha (as the Yangtze is called upstream of Chongqing municipality)
Dam Location Size (GW) Status
Xiluodu Sichuan/Yunnan 12.6 under construction
Xiangjiaba Sichuan/Yunnan 6 under construction
Baihetan Sichuan/Yunnan 12.5 site preparation
Wudongde Sichuan/Yunnan 7.4 site preparation
Hutiaoxia (Tiger Leaping Gorge) Yunnan 2.8 designed
(As a frame of reference, 1 GW = an average nuclear plant, although hydro typically has a significantly lower capacity factor. I suspect that many existing Chinese coal plants will be run seasonally (in the winter) when demand is higher and and water flow typically lowest once thes edams are completed + 30 nukes).
http://imdb.com/title/tt0033729/
Go to West Virginia and see the mountain top removal. There is no reclaiming that. You view that landscape and you can only contemplate the active presence of evil.
Why anyone is susceptible to coal PR entirely escapes me.
Why all humans have brains that evolved from those of primitive and frightened ancestors into ones that are easily bent by Madison Avenue escapes me at times too. (Psst, is that second guy in line a terrorist? And who does that first guy think he is?)
(Forgive them, they know not what they are.)
Yea, I saw the more advanced one later and was going to post it except that too many TODers are going to identify with, and be offended by, the hunched ape on the right.
Also the picture of Homo Non-Erectus-againus is missing the oil barrel powering his computer and his mobile home. :-)
For those reading this who were born without the sarcasm detection gene, that first part was, indeed, sarcasm.
Of course we've done a hell of a lot of damage with mining. Only a moron would claim otherwise. But only someone equally (and perhaps willfully) out of touch with reality would suggest that ALL mining has such a horrible environmental impact.
But I suppose that really wasn't your intent, was it? You just wanted to manufacture a chance to hold your breath and kick your feet and throw a little anti-American tantrum in the middle of a serious discussion. By all means, continue; I'm the last person to try to stifle someone else. But I've reached my limit with this kind of mindless BS, so I will fight back as the spirit moves me.
From all I've read about mining and the mining propaganda, there are apparently lots of morons claiming otherwise.
You may be right that this is a rant, but my own opinion, based on a fairly considerable amount of reading on the subject, is that the efforts to mine and reclaim in an environmentally sound way are being massively eclipsed by the 'devil take the hindmost' approach to mining. This applies to other extractive industries as well. It is difficult not to feel the revulsion when seeing this happen and seeing the Bush administration supporting this kind of destructiveness in a big, big way. The trend IMO is not only bad on a worldwide scale, but extremely bad. My little voice and even littler vote do basically squat to change this.
re-claimed mine land: you don't seem to get the point that even re-claimed the land is not even a fraction of what it once was. i have seen pictures, what was once forest becomes life-less park land with a few trees scattered about in semi grid like pattern or they just make it grass land while zoning it for development.
as for your global warming comment, you have to be absolutely nuts to think a little bit more farm-able land in a desert is worth more then all the other farm-able land which will disappear along with the death of millions of people etc.
[rant warning]
on a side note, after reading some of the purposed solutions to many of our problems 'global warming, po, etc' i am starting to think that to save the health of the planet we might have to be taken out or reduced in population by about 90%. i shudder when i think of what will happen after we do any of the following.
massive dumping of chemicals to encourage algae growth to suck up c02.
massive seeding of the air with particulate matter to block out sunlight.
building 'artificial trees' to suck up c02 while not giving out all the good things that trees give us.
TrueKiaser...
You said, "because of this article i have lost all respect for you heading-out."
Your remark, "on a side note, after reading some of the purposed solutions to many of our problems 'global warming, po, etc' i am starting to think that to save the health of the planet we might have to be taken out or reduced in population by about 90%..."
And a remark like that surely causes me to have some doubts about respect for you...
The way in which the environmental/peak oil people talk so easily about "taking out" human beings is causing many people who understand the seriousness of these issues to begin to distance themselves from the so called "peak" movement.....I recently made a statement, and everyone here seemed to pretend to very conveniently not understand what I meant....I said that I had sent a friend to some of the Peak Oil sites, including TOD, and that he had unfortunately read some of the type of posts that that are most horrifying in their implications....he told me that thank you, but he would prefer not to read what he called "eugenics by way of fuel shortage."
There is a need for some small resemblence to sanity in what we say, and the understanding that what is sometimes said almost "on a side note" has much more terrifying implications than the result of "Peak Oil" itself....
I once read a great thought by a petroleum geologist who understood the peak oil issue very clearly, and accepted the premise. He said..
The danger is not in peak oil itself however, but that we will do something very foolish in reaction to it."
Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout
So, here are some things to think about:
The standard retort to this line of argument was that the U.S. consumed 25% of the world's energy but produced 30% or so of world output. With the rise of emerging markets over the past few years, the U.S. dropped to about 22% of world output. Still, using 25% of the world's energy to produce 22% of world output isn't so bad. Anyhow, on a per GDP basis I thought that lots of countries had higher energy consumption per unit of GDP, like China. Doesn't this depend on how you measure efficiency?
That's not what scientists say about concentrated solar power (CSP aka Stirling Engines). Here's a quote "The southwest region of the United States is ideally suited for this [CSP]. In fact, a solar farm 100 miles by 100 miles could satisfy 100% of the America's annual electrical needs." (www.stirlingenergy.com)
How much of the output is driving back and forth while becomming obese?
I use the phrase "standard retort" on purpose -- not a lot of countries are buying our "output".