In which vein, I did note comments which are also inherent in this story, that mines always leave a permanent scar on the landscape and copious pollution. I suspect, for many who hold those views, that I could stand them near mine site after mine site that has been restored, defy them to tell me where the mine was, and would still be unable to change their minds.

I guess all those mountain tops that had been dumped into rivers and streams were put back into their original mountain shapes, the rivers restored to their original beauty, the fish kept to one side and then returned, the animals likewise, the leachate all carefully collected then returned to the mountain. Yeah, those pesky environmentalists, always wanting the good-hearted miners to restore the environment. Well, pesky environmentalist, just look at this park-like setting that used to be a wilderness area, a place where black bear roamed, trout were found, we made it even better. See, there's a golf course, and a municipal dump and a housing development consisting of McMansions, replete with McDonald's.

The American swoons. "Why THANK YOU, Mr. Miner!!! You make my heart go all atwitter when you show them pesky environmentalists just how much you care!!!"

<rant>sounds like those pesky coal mine owners in the US have a few friends at the DOD...or aren't those brown skies interfering with the optical acquisition of Targets? Seriously, Exxon was born from the unholy union of Standard of New Jersey (Esso), the Humble Company and Carter Oil. Carter owned more coal reserves than anybody except Peabody, and thus Global Warming is refuted by campaign donations to the Bushes.
I've been wondering about the effect on the ground water at reclaimed strip mines. I know the surface can look the same especially if it was farmed before. Anybody ever try to drill a water well on reclaimed land?
I have gone swimming in stripper pits, back in the bad old days before they filled 'em in. I can tell you this: we were not bothered by mosquitoes. The pH of the water was about 2.0 by my guesstimation. It was green, not from algae but from FeSO4, and nothing grew in it.
Wasn't it unpleasant swimming in that sour water?
On the other hand, the rare earth magnets in your hard drive came from moving those mountains and killing those fish.

I was raised in an area that was mined without any environmental controls in the early 1900's.  The area was left cratered and desolate, with the river running bright orange every spring from the mine runoff.  It took a century for the wildlife to come back.  Of course looks can be deceiving, since the area is still toxic to human.  My home town is a cancer node and I've watched about a  lot of people die horrible deaths.

As long as we live in an industrial civilization there will be mining.  

Oaksmoke: Don't know anyone who lives on the old mine sites, but the minerals that drew the miners in the first place tend to end up in the drinking water even in undisturbed areas.

Sooner or later, there will be no more hard drives.  But fortunately, fish DNA will have survived, and the fish will be back.  

Civilization was a lot of fun while it lasted.

Rare earth magnets are not strictly speaking required for hard disks, are they?
Talk about deceptive!!  Thanks for enlightening us as to how great a job has been done reclaiming the coal mining areas of America.  Coal is causing death and destruction all over China and will cause global warming to go completely out of control and we are supposed to get excited by the supposed greening of the Sahara.  Tell that to the Inuit.  Tell that to all the high altitude species which will die at high altitudes. And will this balance out all the land lost along our coastlines.

On the bright side, I will not live along enough to fully experience this hell hole we used to call the earth.  

I was actually born and raised in the area just north of Newcastle in England.  When I went to work I went by bus past large hills of waste.  I have posted before of smogs so thick I could not see my hand in front of my face, and the buildings were black, and soot fell on the washing on the line.  That was the way it was. For many folk at the time you worked at the mine, because that was where the work was.

The land has been restored, the air is much cleaner, and the buildings have also been cleaned and restored.  I can remember, at the pub, men talking about the wonder of being paid almost as much to work at the local chocolate factory as they had been paid at the pit, and being able to see the sun between Sunday and Friday. I have posted pictures, and could also post pictures from the hills were my great . . .great grandparents mined which are now considered to be moorland to be protected from the ugliness of wind turbines.

There are parts of southern Illinois where houses are built and orchards grow on the old spoil banks, and fish are found in the water that fills the valleys between them.

I am aware of the problems that exist in China, which is in many ways going through the issues that confronted Europe after the second World War, when nations had to be brought back from the destruction of that war.

However, to neglect the strides that have been made from those times, and the technologies and legislation that now significantly reduces the long-term impacts of mining is to deny reality. The Chinese Government recognizes that they have problems, and are working to solve the problem, but in the present situation the demands for energy to build the plants that supply the rest of the world with cheaper goods, is driven to a level that limits what they can do.

And while coal is part of their answer they are also aligning supplies of oil and natural gas into the future, that while improving their environment, concurrently reduce the supplies that are going to be available to the United States, and Europe. It is a concern that I have posted about before, and will likely again.

China also has a long list of hydroelectric projects that they want to build as well as 30 nuclear power plants.  And a few wind turbines as an experiment/to gain experience.

With these, China can, I think, reduce their reliance on coal.

At the moment Chinese reliance on coal is actually increasing, and there's no sign of that trend reversing.
I'm not trying to be insolent, just curious, could you post a couple of data points for that trend thing -- it only takes two data points to make a line :-)  We love data in TOD don't we?
I'll get back to you next Monday with the new BP energy review, too lazy at the moment :-)
Chongqing, the sprawling municipality at the upstream end of the Three Gorges reservoir, has revealed a plan to build two big dams on the main channel of the Yangtze River, the Chongqing Morning Post (Chongqing chenbao) reported yesterday [Mar 21].

If approved, the Zhuyangxi and Xiaonanhai hydropower projects would bring to four the number of dams spanning the central section of China's longest river.

Gezhouba, completed in 1988, was the first dam to block the Yangtze. Forty kilometres further upstream, construction of the concrete dam at the Three Gorges project, which stretches for 2.3 kilometres across the river, is to be
completed in May. (All parts of the mammoth project are due to be finished by 2009.)

Cai Qihua, director of the Changjiang [Yangtze] Water Resources Commission, recently led an inspection tour to the proposed Xiaonanhai and Zhuyangxi dam sites, the Chongqing Morning Post reported. Xiaonanhai is located 40 kilometres upstream of metropolitan Chongqing (and 650 kilometres upstream of the Three Gorges dam), while Zhuyangxi is 140 km upstream of Chongqing.

The design institute of the CWRC, which was also the principal designer of the Three Gorges project, has begun doing design work on both of the proposed new dams.

Xiaonanhai, the smaller of the two projects, with one gigawatt of installed generating capacity, would be built first, China News Service (Zhongxinshe) reported. Zhuyangxi would have a generating capacity of 3 gigawatts, cost US$3.75 billion, and be built between 2009 and 2016, the Chongqing Morning Post reported.

At least 21 large dams are also planned or under construction on the Jinsha River, as the upper Yangtze is called. The four biggest projects (Xiluodu, Xiangjiaba, Baihetan and Wudongde) are being constructed by the company building the Three Gorges dam, and are slated to have a combined installed capacity of 38.5 gigawatts, twice that of Three Gorges.

Apart from producing power, the four dams are designed to tackle a serious problem facing the Three Gorges reservoir: They are supposed to help block silt and prevent a dangerous buildup of sediment behind the Three Gorges dam.

The construction of more than 100 large dams on the upper Yangtze has already worsened the flood risk on the river, a Chinese expert told the Fourth World Water Forum in Mexico City yesterday [Mar 21].  

Cheng Xiaotao of the Beijing-based China Institute of Water Resources and Hydropower Research said the dams were causing longer-lasting and higher floods.

He advocated shifting from flood control to the non-structural approaches of flood management.
(World Water Forum Bulletin, Mar 22)

Fact box: YANGTZE / JINSHA DAMS

YANGTZE: Two dams currently span the river.Plans for two more have just been announced
Dam Location Size (GW) Status
Gezhouba Hubei 2.7 built
Three Gorges Hubei 18.2 under construction/being commissioned
Zhuyangxi Chongqing 3 proposed
Xiaonanhai  Chongqing 1 proposed

JINSHA: Below, five of the more than 20 large dams planned for the Jinsha (as the Yangtze is called upstream of Chongqing municipality)

Dam Location Size (GW) Status
Xiluodu Sichuan/Yunnan 12.6 under construction
Xiangjiaba Sichuan/Yunnan 6 under construction
Baihetan Sichuan/Yunnan 12.5 site preparation
Wudongde Sichuan/Yunnan 7.4 site preparation
Hutiaoxia (Tiger Leaping Gorge) Yunnan 2.8 designed

(As a frame of reference, 1 GW = an average nuclear plant, although hydro typically has a significantly lower capacity factor.  I suspect that many existing Chinese coal plants will be run seasonally (in the winter) when demand is higher and and water flow typically lowest once thes edams are completed + 30 nukes).

Younger people on TOD probably never saw the stunning movie "How Green Was My Valley", but it can be picked up on DVD. It was filmed in 1941, in black & white. Still a great film about the deteriorating environment in a coal-mining town in Wales. Take a look at the Internet Movie Database:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0033729/

Yep, no question, there were strip mines in southern Illinois that were successfully reclaimed. I had a friend who bought some played out mines and did the reclamation. I was down there myself a week here a month there. It was a positive experience, gratifying, and profitable. My friend Gary has had his ears open for the last 30 years for another project that just might be possible. There ain't one.
Go to West Virginia and see the mountain top removal. There is no reclaiming that. You view that landscape and you can only contemplate the active presence of evil.
Why anyone is susceptible to coal PR entirely escapes me.
Why anyone is susceptible to coal PR entirely escapes me.

Why all humans have brains that evolved from those of primitive and frightened ancestors into ones that are easily bent by Madison Avenue escapes me at times too. (Psst, is that second guy in line a terrorist? And who does that first guy think he is?)


(Forgive them, they know not what they are.)

I'd love to design a school curriculum that included a form of a "self-help" course -- say, a little bit like Tony Robbins or Stephen Covey.  I'd think that a course like that would be immensely popular and useful.
If this 'self help' involves having 7 children like Stephen Covey, then it might be a bad idea:-(
Teaching kids how to have children is definitely NOT what I'm talking about!
Your evolutionary research is a bit dated...


Yea, I saw the more advanced one later and was going to post it except that too many TODers are going to identify with, and be offended by, the hunched ape on the right.

Also the picture of Homo Non-Erectus-againus is missing the oil barrel powering his computer and his mobile home. :-)

Thanks for this revealing comment.  Clearly HO has no idea what s/he is talking about, and the fact that s/he never said that those successful reclamation efforts applied to all mining sites makes no difference whatsoever.

For those reading this who were born without the sarcasm detection gene, that first part was, indeed, sarcasm.

Of course we've done a hell of a lot of damage with mining.  Only a moron would claim otherwise.  But only someone equally (and perhaps willfully) out of touch with reality would suggest that ALL mining has such a horrible environmental impact.

But I suppose that really wasn't your intent, was it?  You just wanted to manufacture a chance to hold your breath and kick your feet and throw a little anti-American tantrum in the middle of a serious discussion.  By all means, continue; I'm the last person to try to stifle someone else.  But I've reached my limit with this kind of mindless BS, so I will fight back as the spirit moves me.  

Of course we've done a hell of a lot of damage with mining.  Only a moron would claim otherwise.  But only someone equally (and perhaps willfully) out of touch with reality would suggest that ALL mining has such a horrible environmental impact.

From all I've read about mining and the mining propaganda, there are apparently lots of morons claiming otherwise.

You may be right that this is a rant, but my own opinion, based on a fairly considerable amount of reading on the subject, is that the efforts to mine and reclaim in an environmentally sound way are being massively eclipsed by the 'devil take the hindmost' approach to mining. This applies to other extractive industries as well. It is difficult not to feel the revulsion when seeing this happen and seeing the Bush administration supporting this kind of destructiveness in a big, big way. The trend IMO is not only bad on a worldwide scale, but extremely bad. My little voice and even littler vote do basically squat to change this.

because of this article i have lost all respect for you heading-out.

re-claimed mine land: you don't seem to get the point that even re-claimed the land is not even a fraction of what it once was. i have seen pictures, what was once forest becomes life-less park land with a few trees scattered about in semi grid like pattern or they just make it grass land while zoning it for development.

as for your global warming comment, you have to be absolutely nuts to think a little bit more farm-able land in a desert is worth more then all the other farm-able land which will disappear along with the death of millions of people etc.

[rant warning]
on a side note, after reading some of the purposed solutions  to many of our problems 'global warming, po, etc' i am starting to think that to save the health of the planet we might have to be taken out or reduced in population by about 90%. i shudder when i think of what will happen after we do any of the following.

massive dumping of chemicals to encourage algae growth to suck up c02.

massive seeding of the air with particulate matter to block out sunlight.

building 'artificial trees' to suck up c02 while not giving out all the good things that trees give us.


TrueKiaser...

You said, "because of this article i have lost all respect for you heading-out."

Your remark, "on a side note, after reading some of the purposed solutions  to many of our problems 'global warming, po, etc' i am starting to think that to save the health of the planet we might have to be taken out or reduced in population by about 90%..."

And a remark like that surely causes me to have some doubts about respect for you...

The way in which the environmental/peak oil people talk so easily about "taking out" human beings is causing many people who understand the seriousness of these issues to begin to distance themselves from the so called "peak" movement.....I recently made a statement, and everyone here seemed to pretend to very conveniently not understand what I meant....I said that I had sent a friend to some of the Peak Oil sites, including TOD, and that he had unfortunately read some of the type of posts that that are most horrifying in their implications....he told me that thank you, but he would prefer not to read what he called "eugenics by way of fuel shortage."

There is a need for some small resemblence to sanity in what we say, and the understanding that what is sometimes said almost "on a side note" has much more terrifying implications than the result of "Peak Oil" itself....

I once read a great thought by a petroleum geologist who understood the peak oil issue very clearly, and accepted the premise.  He said..
The danger is not in peak oil itself however, but that we will do something very foolish in reaction to it."

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

 

Can I second the motion of ThatsItImout?  While I'm not impressed with mining companies (most of them damage their local environment significantly and some do it disastrously), I find the "dieoff" brigade to be both morally repugnant and intellectually blinkered.  I sincerely hope TrueKaiser isn't a member.

So, here are some things to think about:

  1. The US is by far the most energy inefficient country on Earth, particularly in the use of oil.  Merely bringing the US into line with per capita oil consumption in the European Union (not exactly a starvation diet) would result in a major fall in US oil consumption and change the global production/depletion equation considerably.  It is therefore unsound to generalise from US experience to the world.

  2. There's no way that renewable sources will give us as much energy as now provided by fossil fuels and, as many people here have observed, peak uranium is not that far off either (and a damn good thing, too, in my book).  On the other hand, what should be looked at for the long term is the eventual total sustainable global per capita production of renewable energy.  Other sources (e.g. oil, coal, etc) should be seen as a transition bank.  The sooner we get working on building the renewable energy economy, the less pain there will be in the transition.

  3. It might just be that we'll have to go back to the per capita energy consumption of (say) the 1920s if we are to live in a sustainable society.  That may provide some difficulties, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.  Further, it will not simply be a matter of winding back the clock.  It should also be considered that many industrial processes are far more efficient & less polluting (per unit of production) than they were back then.  And, finally, many inventions and medical discoveries have been made since then, and many of them will be sustainable in a low energy future.

  4. People who talk about a population explosion and geometric increases in the world population are out of date.  Here in Australia, it is commonly discussed in the media that population growth is slowing around the world and the global population will max out at around 9 billion in about 2050.  In industrialised countries, the ones that consume most energy & other resources, the process is more advanced.  The population of Japan is peaking this year, most EU countries will peak very soon if they haven't already, and Russia is in free fall.  Even in the poorest Third World countries, the birth rate is steadily trending down and has been for decades.  Yes, the sheer size of the human population is a problem and it's going to get worse before it gets better, but get better it will.

  5. Current socio-economic & geographical development patterns in the US are a product of the existing political structure.  Even from here in Australia, I can tell that the US political establishment (i.e. the existing system of two parties, both of which are deeply linked to the major corporations) is "on the nose", as we say here, with the vast bulk of the population.  Bush, for example, only got re-elected because his opponent stood for nothing.  When the world wakes up to Peak Oil (which it will, sooner or later - facts are stubborn things), the political credibility of the entire establishment, and not just that of Bush & his Big Oil buddies, will be abolished - totally.  A new political force will arise, putting forward a program to deal with the crisis, and the Republicrats (not my invention, but I like the word) will be history.  I can't name that force from this distance, but with the old establishment swept out of the way, many currently "impossible" things will be possible and some reality-based adaptation to Peak Oil & Global Warming will be begun.

  6. In the rest of the world, or at least most of it, Peak Oil will have a less drastic effect than in the US.  We aren't so deeply entrenched in the car culture, the corporations have somewhat less influence, and we don't suffer from the particular patterns of racism that create inner urban ghettoes and generate "white flight" to often gated communities in the suburbs & exurbs (there's plenty of racism outside the US, but the patterns are different - check out the Paris riots in November last year).

  7. Food production is often cited as a problem by the "dieoff" brigade.  This assumes that agriculture everywhere is the same as in the US.  It isn't.  In other countries, agriculture is a lot less energy intensive.  Further, there are many Third World countries where food production has dropped markedly because of imports of subsidised US products.  Mexico is one.  If the US has to cut production greatly because of energy shortages, it will turn from a food exporter to a food importer - but there are many countries which could fill the gap.  Finally, in many Third World countries, much land is now given over to non-food crops for export to industrialised countries.  If the markets for the non-food crops disappear, this land will be put back to use growing food.

  8. The world will survive Peak Oil.  The human race will, as well.  If we wake up to ourselves in time, we will still have a pretty good life.  Peak Oil will help us wake up and the other fossil fuels will provide the transition bank to manage the change.
1. The US is by far the most energy inefficient country on Earth

The standard retort to this line of argument was that the U.S. consumed 25% of the world's energy but produced 30% or so of world output.  With the rise of emerging markets over the past few years, the U.S. dropped to about 22% of world output.  Still, using 25% of the world's energy to produce 22% of world output isn't so bad.  Anyhow, on a per GDP basis I thought that lots of countries had higher energy consumption per unit of GDP, like China.  Doesn't this depend on how you measure efficiency?
2.There's no way that renewable sources will give us as much energy as now provided by fossil fuels

That's not what scientists say about concentrated solar power (CSP aka Stirling Engines).  Here's a quote "The southwest region of the United States is ideally suited for this [CSP]. In fact, a solar farm 100 miles by 100 miles could satisfy 100% of the America's annual electrical needs." (www.stirlingenergy.com)

The standard retort to this line of argument was that the U.S. consumed 25% of the world's energy but produced 30% or so of world output.  With the rise of emerging markets over the past few years, the U.S. dropped to about 22% of world output.  Still, using 25% of the world's energy to produce 22% of world output isn't so bad.

How much of the output is driving back and forth while becomming obese?

Exactly 16.178251% of it!  :-)

I use the phrase "standard retort" on purpose -- not a lot of countries are buying our "output".