236 comments on DrumBeat: June 16, 2006
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Here is a fascinating article from last year. There are apparently a bunch of people out there who are convinced that the rate of innovation is slowing drastically.
This does not bode well for the techno-cornucopian position that we will be able to innovate our way out of the Peak Oil box - for instance by developing fusion reactors that fit in the trunk of an electric car or something.
This contrasts starkly with Ray Kurzweil's notion of an imminent "Technological Singularity", a spritual/technological notion that a transcendence of the human condition through technology is both possible and desirable. Needless to say, Kurzweil disagrees vehemently with Huebner's conclusions.
The linked article goes into this in some depth, touching on such disparate topics as capitalism, globalization, ethics and the nature of progress. I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the future of the human race.
And I am one of them. Indeed, that's how I came to peak oil. I always figured technology would save us. Until I started wondering why we weren't colonizing other planets, like those 1960s SF TV shows predicted.
I came to the conclusion that The End of Science was real. As for why...I think Tainter has the right explanation. The low-hanging fruit is plucked first. We're running out of low-hanging fruit.
We have discussed this before, more than once. Someone posted a nice link to a Business Week story about it, but it's on my other computer. And Discover magazine had an article about it a few months ago, too.
I've long been convinced that intelligent species exist, but only for very short periods of time cosmologically speaking. I now believe that those species probably exist near the peak of their technological capabilities for only an extremely short time, probably less than 500 years, depending mainly on their rate of reproduction (less fertile species exist longer).
The reason is twofold: first, we develop on spheres where stored resources are axiomatically finite, and secondly our techological development allows us to rapdly dominate all the resources of that sphere. This leads automatically to a situation of overshoot, where the easily available stored resources support exponential population growth, followed by a Malthusian collapse. The time required to enter that overshoot depends on three things - the availability of resources, the overall fertility of the species, and their ingenuity. A reduction an any of these factors leads to a broader curve (slower ascent and descent) without changing its fundamental shape.
I no longer see expansion into space as a saviour. the reason is that the growing ability to exploit local resources causes the population to start exploding well in advance of the development of pinnacle technologies like mass space flight. I also expect that the utilization of renewables would not play a major role in saving a species, because by the time the need to collect such diffuse energy was obvious it would be too late due to exponential population pressure and the depletion of the foundational stored energy sources.
I'm obviously guilty of massive anthropocentrism here, because my primary assumption is that intelligent species arise in conditions much like those we have here. Still, it seems like a reasonable first approximation.
Therefore, the existence of Fermi's Paradox proves that such an energy source does not exist.
The conclusion: Ultimately there is no way out of the finite-resource box.
Given the enormous energies that are just barely beyond our grasp, it is hard to believe that no civilization anywhere could manage to bridge that gap and produce a solar-powered interplanetary and then interstellar civilization.
One clarification: a "space travelling species" beaming out lots of electronic signals is still the same species after it returns to the dark ages, right? It's just that we're no longer detectable to other civilizations with advanced receivers.
What about Dilithium Crystals?
Actually, my main objection to manned space flight for research and exploration isn't that it costs too much, but that it takes too long. We spend extraordinary amounts of effort (effort=time and money) trying to make sure nobody gets killed. Launch a robot, and if it blows up on the pad nobody but the designers (and maybe the odd computerized kitchen blender) mourns.
The usual reasons given for going further into space than geosynchronous orbit have generally been resources, energy and human diaspora. All have been revealed as pipe dreams as we got past the gee-whiz stage of space flight. I used to be a Solar Power Satellite fan, but lately the idea of spending that kind of money to beam microwaves through the atmosphere has pretty much lost its appeal for me.
We do need lots of observation and communications satellites to keep an eye on our planet in crisis and to link those in remote places into the global village. Beyond that, we have ground-level problems aplenty to spend the money on. Manned space exploration isn't going to mitigate the impact of $100 oil on villages in Botswana, or even Indiana.
I recently read The Singularity is Near. While I disagree with a lot of what Kurzweil wrote, and he didn't even address the problem of future energy supplies, that book is mind-blowing. It gives you something to think about. Regardless of what happens with PO, there are certainly some interesting times ahead. But I have to wonder if someday Kurzweil won't wake up and think "Energy supplies....Should have thought more about that".
RR
RR
The only hope might be a big advance in fusion technology which allows cheap abundant energy, or some theoretical breakthrough in string theory (or some competing model) which gives us a much deeper physical insight and could lead to radical new technologies. At present, neither of these possibilities seem likely.
Someone joked once that we would soon reach a point where the rate at which library shelf space that is filled with scientific journals would soon exceed the speed of light.
This wouldn't violate the laws of relativity however as there would be no information being transmitted.
This could lead to new ways of gathering energy, much more efficient ways of using energy and enourmous cultural changes that could challange our old notions of what it is to be human and what life and death is. There is physical "room" for very intresting things, if we work on it.
If men get to choose which genes are preferred [and when], we may just dig ourselves out of this mess
I guess I would look at it this way. The affluent 1 billion are for the most part uninterested in developing things that are affordable and practical for the remaining 5 billion. There simply isn't any money in it, so instead they 'innovate' by developing new ipods and cellphones and all that rot.
Technologies that are practical for the 3rd world might be things like solar cookers that are easily made with materials that are available in the 3rd world. It would eliminate the need to collect firewood, and reduce pressures on deforestation. At least for a while - increasing human population would eventually overwhelm any ecosystem.
The evidence is pretty clear that as a society improves child mortality and becomes more prosperous and educated they slow there birthrate.
He got an education and received a Bachelor's in 1921. He had two children, but by the time my father and aunt became adults of breeding age in the late 1940's the world population had doubled to 2 billion. I reached breeding age in about 1970 when the world's population was about 4 billion. My one child is now 18 and, thank god, I'm not a grandfather yet, but by the time he has grown children the world will probably have 12 billion people, and our current 6 billion is destroying the world. Oh sh*t.But,to change as my family has done the world needs prosperity and education and quickly.
I know the moron above is a right-wing troll. But his evil b.s. needs to be called what it is, evil,stupid and simplistic. If we don't identify narcicsistic BS they think that its all right.
It's all a matter of priorities.
Basically, people who believe this do not have an accurate sense of time.
There were commercial plane flights about a decade after the Wright Brother first flew. Not so with spaceflight. Why? Because the problems are harder to solve.
Tainter takes a quantitative approach, as much as possible. He looks at the number of patents granted, for example:
He also considers the money companies spend on R&D vs. the payback on their investment, and the benefits of medicine.
Note that this does not literally mean the end of science. It's more like "peak science." Yes, there will always be more knowledge out there. But it will be more difficult to extract, and more difficult to turn into a useful form. If it weren't, it would have already been discovered.
How many joules does it cost to lift my body (and a suitable container) up out of the gravity well?
Why the heck would you assume that 'free energy' would show up to solve that?
(the per capita stuff proves nothing at all about total rate of innovation. in fact, it hide it. more engineers (a good thing) dilutes the per capita messurement.)
No. I am arguing that cost and energy are integral parts of technology.
Why? If discoveries are infinite and equally accessible, shouldn't more scientists and engineers mean more patents?
Not that costs for certain actions (spaceflight) remain high.
Not that "discoveries are infinite and equally accessible"
The article above refers to a study by James Huebner (more here), which divides the rate of innovation by the current U.S. population:
Now, I think he's done is make a sneaky semantic definition that "innovation" must be "per population."
I don't get that. Consider the mental experiment in which an island nation is composed of 100 scientists, each producing one innovation per year. Add another 100 scientists, you get another 200 innovations per year, but per Huebner you'd be "flat."
It's gets interesting if you add yet another 100 scientists (100 more innovations) and 300 gardeners (the place had been getting overgrown). Whoops, per Huebner the "innovation" just dropped by half (even though it went up in real terms).
... so I call B.S. on dividing by innovation. It only has any kind of interest if you aesthetic/moral goal is to get everyone in your population involved in innovation (no more lifeguards!!!!).
- True genius, which leads to dramatic discontinuous innovation, if freakishly rare. We don't often get a Copernicus, da Vinci, or Einstein. Looking at this on a per-capita basis won't show us much. But it only takes one innovation by a Sabin or Salk to start vaccinating the whole world.
- Dividing by population calculates the likelihood that any one person will innovate, but it obscures the total amount of innovation. With population essentially flat in the high-tech western countries (excluding immigration), and growing in education-deprived countries, it is pretty clear that you will train fewer scientists per capita worldwide, leading to fewer innovations per capita. Your country may vary.
- Innovation quality is hard to measure, but quantity is up. Total US patents granted have increased steadily:
1963 48,971 (18% foreign) to2004 181,302 (48% foreign)
source: http://www.uspto.gov/go/taf/us_stat.pdf
The big news in this regard is China. We talk a lot here about China's economic growth in terms of its impact on the energy situation, but I know in my field we are seeing an enormous emerging effect from Chinese research. More and more papers are appearing with fundamental breakthroughs from Chinese institutions.
For generations, a billion Chinese have been trapped in feudal conditions, living as primitive peasants one step from starvation. Now, at last, China's economy is improving, and one of the major effects of this is that millions of potentially brilliant researchers are being saved from lives of back-breaking labor and allowed to work up to their intellectual potential.
I believe we are going to see a tremendous burst of creativity and discovery as a quarter of the human race is finally allowed to bring its intellectual powers to bear on the problems we face. Millions of potential Chinese Einsteins and Newtons will finally be able to offer their gifts to the human race, just when we need them most.
We tend to fall into the trap here of thinking of people as just a cost, a drag, mouths to feed and needs to fill. What we forget is that, on average, people produce more than they consume. The riches we see around us are thanks to hundreds and thousands of years of people doing just that. As China steps up to the international plate it, too, will not be a net cost to humanity, but a net boon, perhaps the greatest we have ever seen.
Could be. It'll be interesting to see how the Culture(s) of China develop at this point.. I wonder how much innovation comes with new freedoms, or whether it grows with need, such as we seem to be heading into.. Is Necessity the Mother of Invention?
Diluting comes from the simpler root: to dilute.
There is no evidence that mental ability is a major selective trait. At the time they procreate, most 20-something humans are not yet using the the neocortical part of their brains for selection of an appropriate mate. It's more of a sniff test.
Just about every huan being "invents". It's no big deal. The issue is more so, what specifically do you invent?
On the other hand, Stephen Hawking has used Godel's incompleteness theorem to argue that physics will never be complete:
Gödel and the end of physics
While Hawking is right, in science as in the oil industry production rate is a crucial consideration. If we need two huge new scientific ideas a century to keep our civilization going, and we only get one, we're in a pickle. Developing a bunch of small technological improvements on existing concepts is like drilling more infill wells in a depleting field. We all know how much that helps.
Einstein published his first paper in 1905. It forty years later that the whole bomb thing capped the story.
... but forty years (BLINK!) it's all one thing to someone looking back at the great "moments" in physics.
You arent' making some claim that the same fields have to explode over and over again are you?
http://www.dorsey.com/files/Nanotechfig1.gif
Growth in 'nanotube' patents.
Now, if physics were to finally unify gravity and quantum theory, that would be a breakthough.
A lot of the nano stuff spans physics and chem, but as an old chem major I wouldn't say that "de-innovates" the inventions. Everything is based on something older.
Really, I think you retreat into a tautology. We can never invent the things we've already invented. We've got to move on.
BTW, have they stopped giving Nobel prizes in physics? That might convince me that it is done ;-)
http://www.epa.gov/cfo/images/iac_image016.gif
I'm reminded of an article that appeared in the LA Times. It was called Utopia lost. The author, Andrew Yarrow, bemoans America's loss of optimism:
Someone named Martha Voght wrote the following response:
Whether they know about peak oil or not, Americans intuitively understand that things are different now. We are not going to be staying in hotels on the moon or taking a flying car to work any time soon, as seemed so possible in the '50s.
I wouldn't want to confabulate economic factors with the fundimental question of whether innovtion is slowing.
And I don't it is possible to separate them. Economic factors are the reason innovation is slowing.
Tainter's The Collapse of Complex Societies is essentially an economic argument.
If a separate measure were not available he would not be able to do his comparisons of innovation relative to population or investment.
So, of course the are separable. Otherwise there would not be two axes on those graphs.
http://www.bio.org/speeches/pubs/er/images/patents_approvals2.jpg
http://www.themeat.org/rant/patentStats1963-2004.png
In absolute terms, they are going up.
to enter you need a multi-million to multi-billion dollar facility and stock it with people who spent about half a decade in school dedicated to a specific function of said lab.
so basically bio-tech further proves the theory rather then disproving it, otherwise someone like me could set up a bio-tech lab in his basement on 1,000 dollars or less.
ROI is actaully complicated because in a competitive market people will be overspending to get an innovation days ealier than their opponent, and nab the patent.
The final days of the human genome race provide a case in point:
http://www.researchmatters.harvard.edu/story.php?article_id=205
As Tainter put it, an increase in spending on R&D of 4.2% yields an improvement of only 2%. At that rate, even if every one of us becomes a scientist or engineer, we'll be losing ground.
People (like the good Dr. above) who total US industrial R&D costs are totalling the costs of such battles. The total of course does not represent the basic cost for the research. It could still have been done for less, by one company. The advantage of the race is that it presses the pace of course, and also that some other side-benefits might also be encountered sooner.
And this does happen in the real world. The "teams" racing for the human genome were one example. In a more trivial field, how many companies design portable mp3 players?
It's a great advantage of our system that we can do "lossy" research like this. We have the resources to over-fund some areas, and gain from the resulting "races." We are also fortunate that when the market does not provide an incentive, private foundations or governments may provide "X-prizes" to spur along such competitive effort.
If you ask me a tech race is better than a production subsidy, by far. Better to put up a $1B prize for a method to produce ethanol at some favorable EROEI/ROI than to drop much more than that to inefficient producers.
Point cases aren't going to prove the general. As bad as I think patents are as a general measure, they at least span many disciplines (including the trivial recreational ones that increasingly attract our attention ... there's a patent on the Super Soaker, right?)
Look at the years. The huge jump is in 1944-1945, just at the end of World War II. That's when all of the companies who had developed technologies used in the war effort were able to patent their creations as they were declassified from solely military use. The big leap and decline directly following that might be related to the development of commercial applications for military technology. (Hey! This microwave radar thing makes my lunch get hot! Wild!)
If you throw a rat into a tub of water, he will struggle and flail and do anything he can think of to get out of it. Humans are not that different -- you throw us into a situation where we know we are doomed, where we cannot deny it, when people are dropping bombs on our heads or our kids can't get food because the long haul trucks have stopped running...then we struggle. We flail. And we create, because that's what monkeys do. Grab sticks and start seeing what can be done.
Of course, it helps to have a unified front or target to go after. The US in particular hasn't seen anything as unifying as WWII since that happened. Or possibly even before; it was a rather singularly clear sort of conflict.
Unfortunately, as long as there is profit to be made on stringing along the oil dependent voters in the US, Big Energy is going to do their damndest to confuse the issue and make a unified effort to fix the problems we've gotten ourselves into all the more difficult. Which is why we, as the aware, have to do our damndest to get the signal through all of the noise that the Big Energy types are putting out. I honestly do think that we can win this fight, or at least go down with an effort to be proud of, if we can pull ourselves together long enough to raise our fists.
Just my opinion. I must be feeling feisty today.
Even cornucopian Marshall Brain (he does the "how it works" books) has lamented the lack of the "next big thing" that's kept the US economy growing. He says that through history, there have been huge advanced in technology that kept things going, the automobile in the teens and 20s, the new tech of WWII in the 40s, computers in the 60s and 70s and even 80s. He notes that "nanotech" and robotics have not become the Next Big Thing. Although the Internet certainly ranks up there with the car or radio as a society-changing technology.
Of course, being a cornucopian, his viewpoint is our society simply runs on new ideas. Somehow, God or someone rewards humans with endless energy as long as we keep on coming up with new ideas. I should note that this is essentially the bedrock American belief about this matter. Little American scientists and engineers etc., as they're growing up, are indoctrinated with the idea that we live better now than people did in Europe in the 1600s because of our more liberal and enlightened ideas. The whole (excellent) series Cosmos by Carl Sagan is an extremely eloquent, well-done, and entertaining look at history from this viewpoint.
I've been saying for a long time over on my site that the two technological areas that will have a huge impact on our energy situation are nanotech (as above) and genetic engineering (cheaper, more efficient biofuels processing). These are extremely high multiplier areas, where even a single, seemingly minor breakthrough can be scaled up to broad application and have a huge impact on world energy markets.
They're not the "holy cow!" level of advancement like General Relativity or DNA, obviously, but I wouldn't trade them for anything right about now.
http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=9843
Well, when you read the article it's kind of hard to see what they're so excited about. It's some kind of molecule that gives you greater control over emulsions, like mixtures of oil and water. I guess it is supposed to make water injection work better, but it's not clear how.Even if this is a case of a somewhat over-eager press release, it's clear that researchers are looking at energy problems in a new way. And with nanotech and biotech just coming out of the labs and into serious application, chances are we will in fact see significant enhancements in energy production. Whether they will really be revolutionary and disruptive remains to be seen, but the potential is certainly there.
Is this the idea that technology will deliver us painlessly through the transition to a post-fossil fueled world? Is it the belief that technology will just barely be able to keep modern industrialized civilization from crashing like the Hindenburg? Or is it somewhere in between?
My personal view is in the gray area between those extremes. Technology will clearly play a huge role in our energy future, and we won't see a collapse of modern civilization or even the end of the suburbs, but we're still in for a lot of human and economic pain for a couple of decades, at least.
What does that make me? A techno-opti-pessimist?
Just someone with a reasonable view. Some folks gleefully predict the collapse of western civilisation because they are chicken to look at their own mortality. The psychological term is projection. Some people whistle in the dark because they do not wish to examine their own behavior. And, some just sit at their computer keyboards and masturbate a lot.
But, in these word about Peak Oil sometimes a little wisdom and humor arises from the collective unconciousness of the Human Race. But, the truth is I'm 54 and will probably be dead in 30 years, and most everyone posting will be dead in 50 or 60 years.Continuing along about the same is the most probable course with lots of improvements and lots of shocks.
A guy like that needs to be reminded that:
- He is the free market
- He is the technology
- Necessity is now
Let "him" therefore bring on to us all these fusion reaction marvels and seamless electrical salvations that he promises. We have complete faith in him. But even our most glorious leader Ronald Raygun said, "Trust, but verify". Now is the time for verification. Bring it on.Strange I thought Lenin said that first and it was used by Dzerdjinski afterwards. Makes me fall into the temptation of looking for similarities between those guys...
Maybe that relates to some of the up-thread comments. Innovation does not equal dream fulfillment. It just means adding to the technological base overall.
First off, the "market" does not have a brain and therfore it does not choose to go one way or the other. Each businessman looks to optimize his return on dollars invested ($RO$I). If you had a tried-and-true way of making money versus a very risky possibility of making money, which way would you go?
Most innvoavtions are a result of government subsidy. Industry rushes in at the end, after it has been proven (tried-and-truthified) that a given innovation will make money.