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196 comments on Energy Prices, Inflation, and Personal Savings

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AlanfromBigEasy on July 2, 2006 - 10:23pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I have a different perspective (no surprise).

"Old Urbanism" can be quite energy efficient.  As long as we have an organized monetary economy, I think vital urban areas will be a better place than isolated rural areas. (Phoenix & Las Vegas not included).

I use 6 gallons/month and could cut that down to 4 easily and 2.5 or so gallons/month in a pinch.  Supplying our stores can easily be done by rail (Union Pacific, NorfolkSouthern, CSX, Canadian National, BNSF, Kansas City Southern) as well as barge and ocean shipping.  We have excellent food within 100 miles (salt, fresh & brackish water + rice & dairy & fruit & sugar).

If we trade food & cotton for fuel, it will come through New Orleans.  If you want coffee, it will come through New Orleans.  If we import steel or copper, it will come through New Orleans.

As for fear of crime (or much else), that is just not a major motivator for me.  

And I informed the police of a 3 generation family from the Missouri Ozarks that are, apparently, dealing meth to construction workers. So drugs are not uniquely an urban problem.

And I can get through the winter without any heat at all if need be (note my last winter).

I spent 4 months helping a friend get his business going (he lived ~6 miles outside Searcy, Arkansas on 44 acres).  I was shocked at just how much driving was required to live even with a decent sized garden.  His job before starting his own business was in South Little Rock, trips to Wal-Mart were several times a week, etc.

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Todd on July 2, 2006 - 11:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Alan,

I responded to Lou below.

Look, you are a mouth to feed.  You do not produce anything unless I missed it in some post.  I appreciate your intellect but that only uses joules.

Here are a series of reasonable queations, my answer to all of them is "yes."  What are your answers?

1.  I can provide for my energy needs.  
Comment:  I cannot provide mineral engine oil but I can limit my engine hours to preserve it and run my engines on wood gas.

2.  I can provide my food.
Comment:  Yes, I can.  Boring but sustaining.

3.  I can provide my power.
Comment:  Yup, beside my PV system, I can run either my 8kW gas generator or my 23kW diesel generator on wood gas.

4.  I can provide my household and irrigatation water.
Comment:  Again, yes.

5.  I can preserve the food I grow.
Comment:  Barb had a post on this a few Drumbeats ago that I idn't have time to respond to.  The answer is yes. We can steam can,waterbath can, dehydrate, vacuum pack and vacuum pack and freeze (remember I will have power even if the grid goes down).

I don' wat to run this into the ground but shipping coffee thru NO isn't an answer.

Todd

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AlanfromBigEasy on July 2, 2006 - 11:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I know how to operate and fix (some things) an utility size power plant, gas, coal (weak) or hydro (not nuke rated).

I grew up gardening and have a fairly good knowledge of orchard farming in different climates.

I have good ties to Iceland and Landsvirkjun (their national power company), so I can "bug out" there in extremis. The alternative, in extremis, would be my grandfather's farms in the Bluegrass area of Kentucky,  But I will stay here in New Orleans as long as a monetary system stays functioning.

Rainwater cisterns are quite doable & easy.

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Todd on July 3, 2006 - 12:43am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Alan,

Here's the crux as I see the urban versus rural debate and it comes down to complexity.  And, maybe I should have approached your intial post from this perspective and left out all the ancillary stuff.

Most, but not all, rural lives are probably an order of magnitude less complex then urban lives/living, that is, they do not depend upon complexity (I am not saying that technology is unimportant.).  

A simple example:  It snows in the higher elevations here - even though we are only 20 miles from the Pacific Ocean.  No one "takes care" of snow on the private roads, which encompasses most of the area because it is the boondocks.  We have been snowed in for a couple of weeks and others we know of were snowed in for up to 6 weeks this past year.  That's life.

Now, how would an urban are deal with this situation?  How would those urban areas deal with being totally cut off from civilization for these lengthts of time?  Especially, if it was the norm?

My point is that Tainter and, probably, Odum would say that urban complexity is doomed to fail.

Todd

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AlanfromBigEasy on July 3, 2006 - 1:22am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The counterpoint is what is the ratio between energy consumed (particularly liquid fuels) and economic value added ?

My impression is that most rural living is much more energy intense (especially for transportation) and comparable or slightly less economic value added.

In a non-collapse environment, that will work strongly against rural living and make access to social services (for instance medical) much more difficult.

The rural life of today is not that of 1900.  It has (appearances to me) evolved into a very energy intense lifestyle, with "driving everywhere".  The "once a month" trip to town lifestyle is long gone.  And drugs have migrated as well :-(

BTW, There is a particular type of weed that grows well on disturbed ground in New Orleans that makes good (if spicy) greens.

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AlanfromBigEasy on July 3, 2006 - 1:36am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
If we go somewhat slowly down the road to collapse (aided by climate changes), rural living will likely suffer worse at first (especially if climate works against them; The Grapes of Wrath was the result of economic depression combined with climatic collapse).

But if the collapse went to completion and urban living became completely untenable, then the rural areas are the only alternative.  Not that rural areas would be good, just not as bad as collapsed cities in the midst of a terrible die-off.

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Don Sailorman on July 5, 2006 - 4:34pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Families starved to death on the south side of Chicago in 1932.
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AlanfromBigEasy on July 5, 2006 - 5:46pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
They also starved to death in rural Kentucky.  Each of my parents were aware of those that starved to death in farming country.  One (details hazy) had a child partially crippled by polio and the father had arthritis.

If one is not in prime health and physical condition, you need  a support network.

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oldhippie on July 3, 2006 - 1:41am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I have no idea how productive and self-sufficient Todd is, but generally in late 20th, early 21st century American cities subsidize suburbs and rural areas are heavily subsidized. Nothing like current rural life would exist without a steadsy flow of tax dollars generated in cities. This is an exact reversal of the historic norm where cities suck the hinterland dry. America reveres a fictional pastoral idyll and the votes in Congress go to the boonies. Oh well.
There will be plenty urban/rural squabbles if TSHTF. Conflict predictable, outcome unknowable
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slx on July 3, 2006 - 3:43am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Of course, the first world cities suck on the resources of the third world, passing some drops on to the country neighbours. Cities need imports of goods.
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AlphaMaleProphetOfDoom on July 5, 2006 - 7:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hey look a dick size contest broke out between the country boy and the city boy!
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Don Sailorman on July 5, 2006 - 8:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Matt, get out the measuring tape. What is six and a half inches divided by pi?
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Don Sailorman on July 5, 2006 - 10:34pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Outcome favors those with
  1. the most long guns
  2. the best training (i.e. veterans)
  3. the best aim

Here's looking at you, babe . . . .
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wkwillis on July 6, 2006 - 1:21pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think the outcome favors those living in New Zealand...
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Don Sailorman on July 7, 2006 - 5:11am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Agreed. NZ is God's Own Country.
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Oil CEO on July 7, 2006 - 3:53pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Check your email.
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markincalgary on July 5, 2006 - 5:46pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
It's possible to live fairly sustainably in either a rural or urban setting. Yes, your average rural resident lives an energy intense lifestyle, probably more so than your average urbanite. Now that I'm rural, I'm painfully aware of this.

However, my experience has been that I had less freedom to build a sustainable existence in the city than I do on my rural property. Things like zoning restrictions, small lot sizes and community standards organizations made it difficult to impossible to do many of the things I wanted to do to move towards a less energy lifestyle. The cost of living alone made it necessary to work full-time (ie. 5 days of commuting) to make ends meet in the city. This is no longer the case now that I'm in a rural setting.

I've tried to live sustainably in the city and in the boondocks. For me, it's easier in the boondocks.

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196 comments on Energy Prices, Inflation, and Personal Savings

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