The Oil Drum | Feeding the Beast

132 comments on Feeding the Beast

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joule on July 18, 2006 - 7:28pm

It's so nice to know that as a US taxpayer I am personally paying for not only the bombs and jets the Israelis are using to destroy Lebanon and Lebanese civilians, but also for the fuel that goes into those jets.

Such a deal!

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step back on July 18, 2006 - 7:39pm

See? We finally agree. I also think it is so nice.

(Couldn't resist that one --but let's not escalate this into a mini war again. Remember, you lobbed the first provocation here. Peace.)

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joule on July 18, 2006 - 8:27pm

Since you think what Israeli is doing in Lebanon is "so nice", how about being a sport and pick up my share of the tab for the free jet fuel they're getting from us?

Better yet, how about being a REAL good sport and pick up my share of the $3 billion+ that the US Congress bestows upon Israeli every year? It's in your interest; not mine.

(Couldn't resist that one --)

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sendoilplease on July 19, 2006 - 12:06am

"It's in your interest; not mine. "

I would not be so sure of that. It may not be to your liking but it may be in your best interest and you might not know it...

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 12:37am

Hmm. How is this in my best interest?

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Jack Greene on July 19, 2006 - 1:21am

odograph,

Well let me see . . .

Israel is an ally of the USA.
They are a democracy, not a dictatorship or fanatical religious movement.
They do not want to return to the 7th century A.D.
Radical Islamic-Fanatics are better dead than alive.

a) They won't try killing me if they are dead.
b) They won't continue making women 2nd class citizens.
c) They won't mutilate women, as they do in some cases.
d) They won't use nuclear bombs.
e) They might try translating a few more books from Chinese, Japanese and English into Arabic.
f) Do I really need to go on?

I assume you all realize that SA, Jordan, and Egypt, and the Gulf States, are not unhappy with this entire play. They do not want Iran to jump ahead in world politics for a bunch of reasons.
Don't forget we subsidize the defense of all of the above and send a lot of food/stuff to Egypt.

Frankly, I think Israel should nail Syria and get rid of the Assad family/Alawite dictatorship, OR, not have hammered fragile Lebanon. But they now have as of tonight Israeli soldiers in Lebanon.

This will not end soon.

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Oil CEO on July 19, 2006 - 2:18am

Well said.

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 4:48am

This is what Joule actually said (underlining added):

It's so nice to know that as a US taxpayer I am personally paying for not only the bombs and jets the Israelis are using to destroy Lebanon and Lebanese civilians, but also for the fuel that goes into those jets.

I was thinking it is nice for Joule to "know" this.
I should have known better than to instigate another round of feces flinging in our TOD monkey cage. Then again, I must subconsciously enjoy this ploy (because it leads to attention getting, entertainment, sense of control over others, ... and all those other psychotic human tendencies which I, like many human creatures, possess).

This kind of exhibition unfortunately reinforces the doomer-gloomer part of my brain because even we TODder's cannot restrain ourselves.

(A "self-restraint" clip from June 2003 Al Jazeerah cartoons, you'll find translation there and also a pictorial insight as to how "they" think.)

The next dream from today's AJ cartoons:

P.S. I do not wish death for anyone just because they have "bad thoughts". I've had many bad thoughts in my life which I now regret.

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fleam on July 19, 2006 - 4:57am

Thank God for Al-Jazeera.

Those cartoons are clever and there's a great deal of truth in them.

Freedom of speech bugs you, huh?

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fleam on July 19, 2006 - 5:02am

Oh, and go check out that tippy UN tower folks - the statement is by John Bolton, the US's representative to the UN.

Really Al-J prints some fine stuff. If you read the captions instead of making up your own, you can see that those horrible monkeys over there are humans beings who hurt and bleed too. Maybe your God has told you they all need to die, but not everyone believes in your God. That little weedy buy in sandals walking along the road, you know, the guy you had great fun splashing water on with your SUV, might just the the God who kicks your God's ass.

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 5:24am

fleam,

we sometimes agree (maids are people too).
and we sometimes seem to disagree.

you wrote (with apparent deep feelings):

you can see that those horrible monkeys over there are humans beings who hurt and bleed too. Maybe your God has told you they all need to die, but not everyone believes in your God.

I express my opinions on the wishing of death upon others and on extremist cult religions nearby this post (see my response to Jack Greene)

Clearly you have been inflamed into an angry & bitter mood.
I'm sorry.
I just wanted everyone to engage in some critical thinking about the fate of humanity (e.g. how do collapsing human organizations deal with increasing stresses?). I guess this provocation merely caused more anger and hurt and flaming. It did not get too many people to "step back" and see the bigger picture.

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SkyWick on July 19, 2006 - 5:24am

I was watching a tv show the other day called tribe . I'm in the UK so you may not have heard about it. It was essentially about this western guy who goes into some of the most primitive tribes and lives as one of them... as much as you can being an outsider. The last show was all about the Nyangaton who live on the borders of Ethiopia, Kenya and Sudan. He decided to visit these guys because the year before he lived with their neighbours the Suri. The two do not get on. The Suri had filled him with stories about how evil and barbarous the Nyangaton were. How mercilessly they killed the women and children.

However what he found out when he lived with the Nyangaton was that they were not the devils they had been made out to be. They were just human beings getting on with a difficult life. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place, the Suri had all the best pasture land, meanwhile they were surrounded by other tribes pushing into their territory. They were struggling to survive. As humans have done since time immemorial they fought for their lives, they killed people and have a culture that encourages it; that is the only option they have left to survive.

I don't see that the western world has really become any better at dealing with an overcrowded planet. Diplomacy is easy when you can afford it, and we do not even manage that very well these days. And remember there is a lot of blood on our hands. We are in our position of comfort precisely because we have fought for it.

Israel, Lebanon: I don't see much difference, just a bunch of humans trying to make do with what they have and when the purse strings start getting a little tight. Just as we do. There are atrocities aplenty to go around. And no doubt unreported stories of self sacrifice and love.

This is the real problem that peak oil exposes. It removes the illusion of the western worlds `humanity' and shows us for the animals we really are. Not that there is anything wrong with being an animal.

For all our achievements and abilities, our suffering and love. We are still subject to a world of finite resources, and when they start to run out we will fight for our land and our right to live just as the Suri and the Nyangaton do. Just as Israel and Lebanon do.

It is easy to blame Hezbollah. Their interests are against ours. But remember they are humans, and largely humans who have suffered to the point that there `humanity' has eroded away. One of the interesting things about the Nyangaton was that even though their culture was all for killing the enemy. It was really hard for them to do it. They had to have ceremonies and prep talks from the elders and really psyche themselves up. The rest of the time they seemed gentle souls as most humans are; enjoying a friendly wrestle, spending time in the bush with their mates and time at home with family. I doubt that Hezbulla are much different. And what of the many civilians, the men, women and children who are simply trying to scratch out an existence.

It can also be easy to blame Isreal. The big bully. One of the biggest armies in the world using out of proportion force to tackle a far weaker foe and killing many innocent civilians in the process. Yet they also are just humans, living in a crowded corner and surrounded by people who at best dislike them and many who would like to see them removed from the earth. Their towns and cities are also being hit by rockets and civilians dying.

I say again. This is the real problem that peak oil exposes. It shows us to be the primitive human animals that we are. For all our compassion and ability to care for one another, when we find ourselves up the creek we fight for our corner.

My heart goes out to all those suffering to in Isreal and Liberea in the conflict and to those on this forum who are also suffering in our own ways.

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BrianT on July 19, 2006 - 9:01am

Sky Wick: Very eloquent (and very politically incorrect). I guess no one informed you that when this subject is brought up every day on TOD you need to pick a side. One side is totally evil, one side is more saintly than Mother Theresa. Never mention that most of the casualties on both sides are civilians (often little kids)-if they are not on your side they deserved it. It is the closest thing TOD has to the Jerry Springer show, or the WWF. Get with the program.

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 11:02am

SkyWick & Brian T,
Both well said.

I think this post exposes "The Beast" within us all.

In each country (be it Israel, Lebanon, Iran, etc.) the average person is merely trying to live his or her life, trying to meek out a living in trying circumstances where there are not too many options for how to survive.

The average person sees only what his or her eyes show them, what the ears speak of to them.

Unbeknownst to many of the average citizens, civilizations around them are collapsing. There are not enough jobs to keep everybody happily employed. So artificial industries of hate are built up. If only we kill and anhialate the people on the other side of the border, things will get better. Remember it's "us" against "them". They are the axis of evil and "we" are the good ones, the ones that our God has chosen to be victorious over "them". They are in their last throes and we are on a non-negotiable path towards paradise.

It is a scene almost copied from George Orwell's "1984".

How many of our government leaders (or religous leaders) are preaching something like this to us?

These are the bell tolls of collapse.
The elites do not have any new tricks to pull out of their rabbit hats. So they set one group of peons against the other. Let the fun and distractions begin! The monkey cages are rattling again.

Meanwhile, out in a dessert spot, an oil well is slowly running out of the lucor of life. At the edge of a forest, more trees are being felled. Underground in an aquifer, the water level invisibly drops. Up in the atmosphere, the CO2 concentration silently increases. But whose got time to pay attention? We are having too much fun killing each other.

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 4:54am

p.s. I guess that is why this Thread is named "Feeding the Beast" (although the thread launchers were talking about Valero, but then again, even they threw in an "Israel" instigator into the intro)

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fleam on July 19, 2006 - 5:04am

Nah it's called "Feeding The Beast" after, apparently, the term used in the VLO company to mean getting the oil in each month to keep up with production. Kind of like any biz, there's a certain amount of turning the crank that has to be done to keep it going. And perhaps feeding the hungry machine is getting harder or taking more flexible standards for VLO lately.

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Dave Cohen on July 19, 2006 - 9:19am

My little "instigator" was newsworthy but I knew it would provoke some discussion. But that's a discussion we need to have.

Also, I didn't get into Valero government contracts, political action committees and where the money went. That is also worthy of discussion but I left it out of the main post. The jet fuel to Israel deal is one of many such contracts that Valero has "landed" in past years.

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 11:13am

[It's] a discussion we need to have

Dave, I agree.

When I first learned of Peak Oil, it started me on a journey.

I tried to tell everyone I knew about this impending disaster.

And yet, "their eyes glazed over".

That led to some tough questions:

Why did their eyes glaze over?
What kind of beings are they that they can ignore this?

The answers were not pretty.
They are we.
They are irrational animals.
They run in herds, often with mindless abandon.
Each one of they (we) thinks he/she is better than the next one.
If the bad thing happens, it won't happen to me. It will happen to the "less deserving" other, to the "them", not to the "us".

Until we deal with The Beast that is us, we really will not be able to deal with problems like Peak Oil, Global Warming, Population explosion, etc. The true problem is The Beast that lies within. (Use "lies" with both meanings.)

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 5:12am

Jack Greene wrote --and I'd like to comment on this:

4. Radical Islamic-Fanatics are better dead than alive.
a) They won't try killing me if they are dead.
b) They won't continue making women 2nd class citizens.
c) They won't mutilate women, as they do in some cases.
d) They won't use nuclear bombs.
e) They might try translating a few more books from Chinese, Japanese and English into Arabic.

First, many "Islamic-Fanatics" cannot help being what they are. They were taught this from birth just like you and I were taught from birth to make money and be part of the Smithian cult (--the Adam Smith cult that worships consumerism and specialization and the Invisible Hand).

Second, it is morally irresponsible to wish death upon any human being as long as there are viable alternatives at the moment for yourself. (Israel has no viable alternative at the moment for itself because they already tried diplomacy & cease fire agreements and yet the Hezbollah rockets keep coming, the Palestinian rockets keep coming.)

Third, because I was raised in a highly religious Jewish up bringing (and have since then gone heathen), I know that belittlement of women is not an Islam-only attribute. It is very much a part of Hassidic Jewish tradition as well. If you study extreme Jewish Hassidism versus extreme Muslim Fanaticism, you will find that there is very little that separates the two with regard to how they view women. Both religious sects are mind control cults. Perhaps Islam is a bit more mind controlling because they require muttering to yourself 5 times a day, whereas Judiasm only calls for 3 major mutterings per day.

(No disrespect meant for believers of either religion. They are human beings like me. It's just my personal opinion.)

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Jack Greene on July 19, 2006 - 9:34am

step back,

You make some good points. The part on female mutiliation is pretty much spot on, but I would point out, and that is what I was thinking about, in Southern Somalia with the Islamic regime now in place, you will not see that practice going by the wayside. BUT, even in Puntland or other northern Somalia areas that do not support Bin Laden and Company, it may continue.

I always got a kick out of the two blocs trying to stop extending the right to vote to women in the USA was led by the clergy and saloon keepers.

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oldhippie on July 19, 2006 - 7:58pm

Southern Somalia? Is that what this is about? Oh please.

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smekhovo on July 19, 2006 - 3:10am

Let me correct the only statement you make which has a clear meaning.
No radical Muslim practices female circumcision. No-one at all does it for religious reasons. It's a traditional custom in some African societies, some of which are Muslim.
Also, "subsidize the defence of" is an interesting way of putting "install puppet tyrants to rule".
As to the rest of your nonsense, go on by all means. It's not as if those who believe it are accessible to argument.

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fleam on July 19, 2006 - 4:02am

Here's how to read the McNews coming out of the Israel-lebanon situation right now:

For "Hezbollah base" read "child care center"
For "enemy fighters" read "grade school kids", "grandmothers", "walking wounded", etc.
For "bomb making facility" read "hospital"

You get the idea. The Israelis are taking the "nits will be lice" approach, for extra credit look that saying up.

------------------------------------

For extra-extra credit, go find a book called "Radical simplcity". It has a feather on the cover. Feathers are cool. The author was a nice little cog in the machine, and realized he didn't agree with what his tax money was being spent on, what his engineering ability was being used for, etc. He decided the only real means of protest was to stop being so damned useful to the machine. How he did this was to go to living on so little money, that he pays no taxes.

This solution is looking more and more viable to me every day. In fact I'm trying not to look at it more than necessary because the more I do, the more it looks mandatory.

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Oil CEO on July 19, 2006 - 4:42am

Bullshit. Keep it fact-based. I could make much worse statements regarding
Arabs/Palestinians/Hezbollah/Hamas/Terrorists.

And my statements would all be facts.

You are smarter than this. Cut the crap.

How would you respond if you were the Israelis? How would you respond?

Tell me what your expertise on the Mid-East exists of. Tell me. I want to know. I want to know where you get your history and your opinions on this matter.

How would you respond?

Extra Credit - Why are Israeli weapons designed to be the most effective against military targets while their enemies weapons are designed to inflict the most amount of damage to the largest amounts of civilians possible?

Why did the Israelis decide to strike one of Lebanon's largest dairy factories(in the Bekaa) at 3AM - when none of its 200 hundred employees would be working there? Why not strike at 9AM when they could have maimed everyone?

Don't even try to make light of the fact that a dairy-factory is not a military target. You would only be verifying you understand little of twentieth-century warfare.

Just answer the questions.

How would you respond?

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fleam on July 19, 2006 - 4:55am

If I were Israeli? In other words, if I were Jewish? I'd be one of the few, the proud, the almost unknown in the US, the dissidents. If I were really religious I supposed I'd be one of the groups of Hassidim who are anti-Zionist.

Up here in San Francisco there have been protests by Jewish folks against what Israel is doing. At the rate things are going, they'll get larger. Others will join in too.

Meanwhile, you're getting a "warm fuzzy" over those photos of the Israeli kids writing their names and slogans on bombs in red ink, bombs slated to land on other, non-Jewish, kids tomorrow.

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Oil CEO on July 19, 2006 - 5:25am

No. Wrong. Try again. I didn't even read past your first sentence.

If you were the Israelis. That's what I said. I didn't say Jews. I said Israelis. That's why I threw in the instruction that you just answer the questions. I don't need editorials. That's what I have newspapers for.

Try again.

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pedrodelgado on July 19, 2006 - 7:49pm

And if you were Palestinian, how would you respond?? Hate breeds hate, in either direction.

And Jack Greene, surely you realise that the Iran "nuclear crisis" is more to do with petrodollars than whether or not Iran intend to learn how to make nuclear weapons.

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Oil CEO on July 19, 2006 - 10:44pm

This is exactly my point. There is no "how would you respond if you were Palestinian". There is no responding for them in this case. They instigated. They provoked. They initiated. It is only for the Israelis to respond. The only hate being spewed is coming from the terrorist fanatics, the Arab world, anti-Israeli elements, and bigots in general. The moral equivalence game doesn't work here. Look at who you would be backing. Horrible, horrible people.

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step back on July 20, 2006 - 4:38am

They provoked. They initiated. ... Look at who you would be backing. Horrible, horrible people.

Oil CEO,

We are often on the same side in these "Us" versus "Them" games, but here I must respectfully disagree.

A Palestinian child who is born into one of these squalid settings has no choice, no free will. He or she begins to be programmed with the messages of hate and victimization from the moment they are born.

Of course Israel did not put them there, did not make the bed from which these Palestinian children/terrorists-to-be arise. It's a long (and hotly contested) history about how the "Palestinian" people got kicked out of one place and then the other (Jordan, Lebanon) because none of the Arab countries would have them. But now here they are, pressing against Israel's borders, their hearts filled with envy and hate; their abdomens strapped with ball bearings and gun powder.

Where does the hate come from?
(And more intrestingly where do the explosive plastics come from? --they don't grow on local fig trees you know.)

First and foremost it/they come from having an "ownership society".

All of Allah's children are equal,
but some are more equal than others.

Some get to become kings or shieks and get to control the black gold that flows from Allah's underground vaults of gold.
Others get to live in squalid camps without hope of any future.
The elite's of the Middle East must keep the downtrodden in check and under control.

But how to do it?
There must be an object of hate, a distraction, to keep the monkeys under control in their cages. There must be an "us" versus "them". And who better to pick on than to create the illusion of 7 million "Goliaths" versus 100 million "Davids" and to fill the minds of the uneducated Davids with ever-lasting hate and crazed desire for "vengence", for a taking back of the lands they were meant to "own" --because surely they are not going to get to "own" the black bubbling lucor meant for the leisure class.

In America, we have the "American Dream" for keeping the underclass in check. It works. The 250 million working slobs all think that one day they are going to move into Jed Calmpett's McMansion, if only they shoot their lottery ticket gun in the right direction.

In the Middle East they have the "Palestinian Dream" for keeping the underclass in check. It works. The 500 million unemployed/ underemployed slobs all think that one day they are going to move into Chaim Calmpettberger's McMansion, if only they shoot their suicide belt in the right direction.

So are "them" Palestinians all horrible, horrible people, or just more victims of a "Dream" plan for keeping "ownership" exclusively with those who deserve to be part of the ownership class?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not an old commie. That system is far worse than our current Smithian approach to life. But the Smithian approach is not working either. It is showing signs of collapse. Too many people are suffering for mindless reasons.

What to do? I wish I knew. I don't have a clue. This is one of the problems that I hope some of the smarter people out here in TOD land can come to solve.

The brain power is out here. But first we must stop flinging monkey feces amongst ourselves; keep the primitive parts of our brains in check, and focus the rational parts of our collective brains on rational understandings of the problems.

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pedrodelgado on July 20, 2006 - 5:39am

I'm not trying to defend the terrorists, but I completely disagree with this statement:

The only hate being spewed is coming from the terrorist fanatics, the Arab world, anti-Israeli elements, and bigots in general.

There is hate spewed by Israelis, massive suffering is inflicted upon the Palestinians (which again leads to further hate). There is loads of anti-Arab hate on this thread. US/UK invasions lead to even more hate.

I really don't understand how you can solely blame the hate on one side.

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step back on July 20, 2006 - 7:35am

"Hate"
"Blame"
"Fault"
"Terror"

These are all noise concepts invented by the human brain. We monkeys fling "blame" and "fault" at each other.

Mother Nature does not hear these noises.
She is slowly lowering the monkey cage deeper into the waters of extinction.

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Jack Greene on July 19, 2006 - 11:47pm

pedrodelgado,

I agree that petrodollars play a role with Iran and Nukes, but you do not think that the Gulf States and SA are not scared of a Shiite regime run by non-Arabs across the Persian Gulf, and that does not influence our/USA foreign policy?

What I am constantly amazed at is we get something like 13-15% of our oil from the Gulf and SA, but Europe and Asia will be hit much much harder.

When a nuke is used in anger we/planet will have moved up to a new level of violence. In the hands of an anti-semitic leadership as exists now in Iran, I would be very scared if I lived in Israel, or even SA.

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step back on July 20, 2006 - 5:05am

When a nuke is used in anger ...

Jack Greene,

Will the Iranian theocracy actually lob the bomb on Israel? I'm not sure. What will they do the day after that tomorrow for keeping their underclass in check?

Anti-semitism serves as the perfect vehicle for keeping the hords on the other sides of the palace walls. After Israel is gone and the Holy Lands are poisoned with radioactive waste, what will the Iranian theocracy do for an encore? They are not "stupid" you know. If a bomb is going to go anywhere, it is not going to get lobbed next door to the poor suffereing Palestinian brothers (see my response above to Oil CEO re these horrible horrible people).

One --but not the only-- "logical" target for an Iranian bomb is the far away cities of New York or Los Angeles because these are Jewish "enclaves". Once the 100 year war starts with the American unbelievers, who cares what happens in Israel? The American front will be entertainment enough.

But why start with America when the Iranian bomb can alternatively land in India, home of the even more despised worshippers of the pig and conveniently located in an expanisionist direction to the East? (See map below.) After that, Persia can arise in all her glory to take on the godless, commie Chinese. The game plan has to be much bigger than little ole' Israel. There is no oil there. There is no land there. There is nothing there. It is just a convenient distraction.

(Right click & "view image" to see bigger)

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 5:39am

fleam,

I live in the Bay area too.
Much as you might believe you know the Jewish community here, you are prejudicially mistaken.

There is no cabal.
We don't all get together and drink the blood of Muslim babies every night (have you seen the movie, The Little Vampire?).

The Jewish community in the Bay Area is very splintered and divided along almost every issue you can think of. We think for ourselves (some of us). There are reform temples, conservative synagouges and yes, even Hassidic ones. The Hassidics themselves are divided as to whether return to Israel at this time is the right thing to do. That is why you will find Hassidic communities in Israel who have made the "aleeyah" (the rising up) and those who remain in the Diaspora (the post-Rome dispersion of the Jewish from their homeland of 2000 years).

If you want to be open minded, you should read some middle of the road articles about the Jewish religion.

I try to read up on Islam and the Koran.
I even have friends who are Muslim.
I do not believe that all Muslims are evil and desrving of death or hurt, just as I expect you to understand that all Jews are not evil Passover-blood suckers who need to die. Most Jews are actually nice people: doctors, dentists, shrinks, college professors, garbage collectors ... every walk of life. Obviously you have been exposed to many blood libels and such. It's not your fault. It's just how you were raised up.

Now. Can you open your mind to other possibilities?
Just like the oil cannot go on forever,
maybe the hate should not go on forever?

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Oil CEO on July 19, 2006 - 5:43am

OK. Now I read past the first sentence.

You're not a dissident. You barely know what the word means. You're only what is commonly referred to as "opininionated." That's good, don't get me wrong. Maybe you smoke a little weed, whatever. That doesn't make you a dissident. Nor does it even make you a radical.

Warm and fuzzy. Yeah. You might be slightly out of touch. Slander. I haven't seen the photos. Let's try to stay fact based.

10 times the deaths have occured in Shia vs. Sunni violence in the Mid-East in the last 3 years than have occured with Israeli vs. Arab, Arab vs. US+"Coalition", or US vs. Insurgent violence(combined).

Does that mean anything to you? What are you "dissidenting" about? What exactly are you so opposed to? Do you fail to understand my position?

Again. And let me be clear. As a nation, if you were Israel what would you do? I'll give you 300 words. How would you respond?

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rwmcalister on July 19, 2006 - 6:59am

Hate to jump into this little fray, but I do have to say if I were an Israeli, I would be doing exactly what the Israelis are doing. But if I were an Arab, I would probably be doing what Hezbollah is doing (if you don't have a standing army capable of direct combat, you fight your battles in any way you can). If killing innocent civilians for political gain is terrorism, then what the Israelis (and the Americans for that matter) are doing is just as much terrorism as what Hezbollah is doing. Or is terrorism only where innocent civilians we like are killed for political purposes we don't like but the killing innocent civilians we don't particularly care about to further political causes we do like is "defending oneself"?

If you were Lebanon, would you then attack Israel since they have now attacked your military (11 killed at an Army barracks bombed by Israel but no declaration of war against Lebanon to justify attacking its military and according to Bush the fight isn't with the Lebanese government).

I also have to ask about the dairy factory (I'll admit up front that I haven't seen the story so don't know the facts surrounding it). I'm ex-military, but I don't remember their teaching us at the Academy to target dairy factories. Are you saying this was really a military base, a terrorist training ground, a weapons cache, or other legitimate military target? Are you saying that destroying the factory was akin to the strategic bombing of Ploesti and the Romanian oil fields during WWII because clearly milk products are crucial to the Hezbollah military machine?

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step back on July 19, 2006 - 1:57pm

I assume the implication is biological weapons. However, I have no facts on this dairy plant icident.

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rwmcalister on July 19, 2006 - 4:53pm

Has there ever been a claim that Hezbollah or Syria or the Palestinians are developing those elusive WMDs? I guess I do remember the "baby formula" factory we bombed in Iraq so maybe dairy processing plants are legitimate targets (although I always doubted it was actually a baby formula factory).

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Don Sailorman on July 19, 2006 - 9:19am

Cowpats!

Camel dung!

Horse maneuvers!

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 9:33am

Bullshit. Keep it fact-based. I could make much worse statements regarding
Arabs/Palestinians/Hezbollah/Hamas/Terrorists.
And my statements would all be facts.
You are smarter than this. Cut the crap.

Um. If the Israelis had found a way to specifically target "terrorists" you might have a "fact-based" argument going. Unfortunately you are perpetuating a misdirection. That is, talk about terrorists, and assume that's helped when someone bombs Lebanon.

Are you smarter than this?

What you have to defend, in a fact based argument, is that bombing Lebanon will help achieve long-term regional peace.

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Oil CEO on July 19, 2006 - 7:16pm

Israel specifically targets terrorism by targeting its leadership. That is only one way it targets terrorists. I will be defending the last sentence soon enough. Especially after today's news.

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oldhippie on July 19, 2006 - 8:01pm

And then at 9 a.m. no one needs milk or the production facility it comes from? Keep it "fact-based".

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Don Sailorman on July 19, 2006 - 9:17am

Can't argue with you.

Once you let Saudi women have drivers licences, who knows what might happen next? They might even object to the open chattel slavery practiced in some Arab countries.

Gotta' keep people in their place. The ones who know their place, they never complain.

Of course it is all the fault of the Zionist-conspiracy plot that in cooperation with the Trilateral commission, the Rosicrucians and Freemason secret order dominates the world with black helicopters everywhere.

Really, it must be true: I read it on a website:-)

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Foxyloficus on July 19, 2006 - 8:12am

I didn't realise that the entire population of Lebanon, Christian and Muslim were, as you put it;

'Radical Islamic-Fanatics'.

How many 'Radical Islamic-Fanatics' have Israel killed in this latest operation?

BTW, Lebanon has a pro-US, democratically (flawed admittedly) elected government.

Cheers.

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Don Sailorman on July 19, 2006 - 1:56pm

How many radical etc. fanatics has Israel killed?

Not anywhere nearly enough. Probably more than the U.S. has in Iraq, because the Israelis are better at this business than the U.S.

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 2:16pm

Do you have any numbers on who's ahead in "limiting civilian casualties?"

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Apuleius on July 19, 2006 - 3:15pm

In percentage of combatants in the death toll, Israel has been beating hell out out of the Palestinians (it varies, but Israel gets over 50% most of the time while the Palestinians are about 10%).

In Lebanon's case, the numbers aren't out yet. But just look at the modi operandi. Hezbollah uses randomly aimed rockets packed with ball bearings. Israel is using NATO ammo, mostly for job creation among civil engineers (thus far).

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 3:38pm

I was thinking us (U.S.) vs. Israel, and the slippery slope as one fights a long war. My feeling is that "minimum civilian casualties" is the only possible goal (from either a moral or strategic standpoint) but that when you don't count (as we haven't in Iraq), you don't know how you are doing.

It is a whole other level of immorality to target civilians, but it is the commitment (a real and visible commitment) to minimizing collateral damage that sets us apart.

I'm not sure where the line is, but sometimes I worry about it. Is rocketing a civilian home based on intelligence that a terrorist might be staying overnight "minimum" ... or have we allowed the minimum to shift?

Would everyone here be as comfortable if it was your granddaughter asleep in that home?

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Apuleius on July 19, 2006 - 4:16pm

Compared to sending an infantry battalion to the house and starting an intense pitched battle in an urban area, rocketing is less likely to cause civilian deaths. But then there is the question of whether to use either tactic at all, and for that you have to evaluate the intelligence (how solid does it have to be before you give the go-ahead?) and the ghastliness of the terrorist in question (how many civilians will he kill if he is allowed to live?)

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 4:41pm

I hope that's the kind of calculus being done.

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 8:48am

The first is a very interesting statement. It seems you are declaring you conclusion ("Israel is an ally of the USA.") as your starting premise.

The rest, items 2-6, rest on the unstated premise that Israeli actions will reduce all the "bad stuff" in the middle east.

Can that be proven at this point, this week?

Remember, the question was not "who do you like", it was to someone who had declared these actions in our best interest.

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oilmanbob on July 19, 2006 - 2:47pm

The Zionists are too religeous nuts. They think that God gave them all the land between the Euphrates and the Nile and base their whole government on a mideaval Polish idea of what is orthodox. Reform Rabbis can't marry people in Israel. They have a policy towards the Palestenians reminiscent of the old US policy against the Indians and the South African Apartheid. And its all based on an idea of family that is passed down in a matrilineal fashion. IMHO their policies are the biggest irrritant in the world and the US blind acceptance and support will very likely start WWIII.

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Apuleius on July 19, 2006 - 3:22pm

The ignorance you're showing here is pretty damn profound. Zionists are secular nationalists. They have no belief involving the Nile and Euphrates, and the theocratic elements of Israel's government are inherited from the Ottoman era and replicated in all the Mideast except Cyprus.

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Rick on July 19, 2006 - 4:16pm

ABOUT THIS THREAD

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this as very productive use of TOD. Remember, this was a thread about Valero and refining, yes?

Yes, any conflict in the Middle East has profound implications for oil and natural gas supply. Yes, any scenarios that could bring escalation or detente have an energy impact. But I'm not seeing much relevant, task-focused thinking here.

Personal opinions about who's the bad guy are mildly entertaining for about 30 seconds, then pretty repetitive and tedious. But I'm sure I'm wrong, and so's my old man, and don't even mention my mother ...

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Dave Cohen on July 19, 2006 - 4:29pm

I'll take responsibility for this because I opened up this can of worms. That said, I hoped the discussion would focus on geopolitical considerations as they affect oil prices and supply. Sadly, that is not the case and I should have realized ahead of time that politics would get in the way. I have my own view of what's going on over there but I'm keeping it to myself.

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Rick on July 19, 2006 - 5:40pm

You brought up an interesting point, but nobody pursued it. Although it's obvious that Israel has no oil, I had not actually thought about their sources of supply. With Israel surrounded by hostile neighbours, their oil clearly needs to come from somewhere else (like an oil importing nation, of course). And this also points out their need to pursue nuclear electricity.

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odograph on July 19, 2006 - 5:44pm

It does create a painful microcosm of what's going on over here, in the US. I'd prefer it if we could stand back and state our preference for peace, but both our resource demands, and lobbies supporting specific players, prevent that.

Let's hope we aren't talking in a year about how much the Iran strike was about oil:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/19/kristol-iran/

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ignorad on July 19, 2006 - 10:03pm

1 Remember the USS Liberty,

An apartheid gov at best
They want their neighbors to return to 7th century.
Zionist fanatics are better off on the south pole than in Washington. DC
Remember the USS Liberty

a) They won't try killing me if they are dead.
b) they won't continue making Palestinians 3rd class citizens.
c) They won't murder Canadians in Lebanon
d) If they won't use nukes, then hand them over

No you don't need to go on. Your taking points make no sense.

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