It is interesting that most of the major models are coming converging at a point right about  the year 2020 or so.  If you average the models you mention (ASPO, EIA,IEA and CERA) and then count in the forecast of our Iranian friend Dr Ali Samsam Bakhtiari is predicting the emergency begins essentially now, but even he is now saying peak is still about 5 years away.  If you take his position only slight long, it gets close to the models above.  

Not to be forgotten are Jean Laharre, (all liquids post 2020), and of the French chief of explration for  Total,  M de Margerie who does not give a year, but simply declares the 2030 drean if 120 million barrels a day as impossible, "never" to use his words.

But M de Margerie throws the monkey wrench in the works, by confusing together the concept of geological peak and logistical peak.  His quote:

"The IEA was mistaken in using recovery factors that failed to consider the timing of new resources coming on stream. M De Margerie said. The world was confusing the issue of reserves with the scale of the problem in producing those reserves. He said: "The oil reserves are there, that is the good news, but what we can bring on today to meet demand is limited by factors other than what scientists see in a lab or think-tanks."

Note that last sentence, because it is much more important than it looks....the words "The oil reserves are there, that is the good news...", is about as far from the existential definition of true "peak oil" as you can get.

 What M. De Margerie is talking about is much closer to what the long posts supposedly by "energy digger" later down this string, a depiction of a world oil and gas industry that has been gutted by the cheap energy prices of the 1980's and 1990's, now without reliable technicians and employees, rife with graft and corruption, and with aging and decrepid equipment, and still, witht the world facing energy crisis, even catastrophe, no ability to gain needed investment.

Again, that is not a definition of "Peak Oil".  It is a depiction of a cyclical industry depression.  It would also explain the price increases in oil and gas without peak oil, in that we are now having to try to play catch up to try to get the industry back up to standard, to avert economic disruptions.  

It seems that everyone is starting to come to a broad set of major "understandings", that can be loosely said this way:

a.  The URR numbers are almost totally unreliable, and have to adjusted repeatedly, thus making the dating of geological peak oil or natural gas all but impossible.  Demand changes, and market management in the energy industry, combined with mismanagement of investment in the industry, make the picture of real production capabiliity of oil and gas completely unknowable.

b. There now seems to be enough production capacitity visible in the system to provide oil and gas to 2020, all liqiuds slightly longer, without serious market disruption caused by geological shortage.  If there is demand destruction of a serious impact, that number of course would be pushed further into the future.  Crude oil, gas and condensates can be considered for all practical purposes interchangable through LNG, LPG and gas to liquids technology.  However, logistical, geopolitical, financial, and market structure disruptions of very serious nature are very possible at any time, of almost any magnitude, and completely without warning.

c.  Massive, very massive, investment in the energy industry of the world is long overdue.  The emergency right now is people, money, politics and heavy machinery and not geology worldwide.  It is a different emergency than geological peak, but an emergency nonetheless.  But, it creates a completely different set of scenarios confronting the industry, the investor, the customer and the nation, that will respond different to approach than geological peak oil.  This is of extreme fascination, aod poses some fantastic opportunities.  It is of the most ludicrious fantasy to expect this scenario to produce a "back to the Earth" simplicity any time during our lifetime.

d.  The above scenario does not preclude, or in any way compete against true geological peak of conventional light crude oil, which evidence indicates may be getting near, or could already be past.  On the other hand given the URR numbers, the corrupted investment and market control, we cannot know, and may not be able to know for many years after it occurs.  Geological conventional peak oil is essentially a moot point.

Conclusion:  We are now in a race, one of the most heated ones we will ever undertake as a culture, between the forces of depletion and the corruption and decay of a crucial industry, and the energy structure that will replace it.  (Hirsch calls it, rather stiff upper lip fashion "mitigation", I call it the "new design age", but it is the same thing, massive restructuring and efficiency  increases and energy diversity) .  We will need the most technical, artistic, inventive and creative population in our history, and an educated core of young people that surpasses our prior great generations.  Evidence is building that we are running further behind than ever, and this will be our major failing, perhaps the back breaking one. There is no indication that physics or science are the limiting factors.

Again, and this is absolutely and essentially imperative to understand:
Due to the extreme amount of energy that will be in available in the world for the right price and with the right arrangements.  Trillions upon trillions of BTU's of energy will be available even if no renewables/alternatives succeed, in the remaining crude oil, retainable methane, natural gas, and bio fuel easily digested.

Peak does NOT mean the world is running out of energy, that is a child's assumption.

  With efficient solar and wind capture, that amount will of course soar.  But it will not, despite the romanticism, be equally distributed.  Some may live their life without fossil or renewable energy, just as man did for thousands of years.  But many many million people will always know energy, for centuries to come, and all the things that modern energy bring.

There will be winners, and they will be very well off indeed.  Sadly there will be losers.  But "modern" technology and culture will go for many more centuries, and if it is done right, we will be dealing with these problems on other worlds centuries from now.

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

I disagree.

  1. The petroleum industry simply hasn't found large amounts of new oil in a long time. They are using technology that is considerably better than 40 years ago: 3D seismic, horizontal drilling, gas injection, deep water, and so forth. And they have invested heavily in those technologies. Add to that the nationalization of oil resources. Venezuela and Russia are following a different model than the "globalization" we've been promoting.  

  2. Major, experienced players like Pickens and Simmons are saying the best years are behind us. Debating URR's and corrosion conspiracies won't change the relationship of oil demanded vs. oil produced.  

  3. There is an ominous, emerging picture involving resource depletion across fisheries, rain forests, desertification and aquifers, to name but a few. This will accelerate the competition for scarce energy.  

  4. The sinks are in trouble. GHG levels are not at defcon 3any longer: glaciers are melting, permafrost is melting, the methane clathrates are bubbling.

  5. The M.E. is in overshoot. Water and soils will not support those populations. 80% of Saudi Arabia's food is imported. Probably 95% of Palestine's is. The instability there will not be solved with "democracy". It is being resolved with war.  

  6. We have no domestic energy strategy. The President, Congress, and our corporate leadership are supporting ethanol. Our game is to produce our way to prosperity with corn or biomass. This is ludicrous.

We have a lot more in common with the inhabitants of Easter Island than many here want to recognize. Even within this group, with a minority of exceptions, Cherenkov, Beggar, Cyclicious, Pedex... the vision is still grounded in the car...  

I agree with you that oil will not run out tomorrow. But the real issue is lead time. What substitutes do we have ready to come online within the next few years as it moves beyond $100 a barrel? None. We have none. We have no game plan for $100 oil. At $200 oil, we have coal.

Then we are cooked.

 

We can make coal to liquid at 100$ a barrel. Sure, steep prices are up now, but so what? We can and will build more steel plants and more methanol plants.
It won't be 100/bl as the energy inputs for the process get dramatically more expensive, including the energy cost to mine and make the steel, etc. All those old cost numbers presume the rest of the energy cost remain stable.
Nah, the energy costs will stay the same. Coal is coal, uranium is uranium.
Diesel is much more important for farmers than for miners. Diesel is less than one half, less than one quarter, less than one eighth of the cost of iron ore, or steel, or pipe.
What's really going to hurt is when all those under employed people making ten bucks an hour are suddenly getting paid as much as you do. You're going to think it's the end of the world when the sixteen year olds start getting apartments and cars and it comes out of your slice of the pie. Even when the pie gets bigger, your slice will get smaller.
The pendulum swings, and then swings back. Welcome to 1973!
I disagree about not having a gameplan.  We don't have one in so far as our government doesn't have a viable one.  But smaller energy players are ramping up.  The current level of oil prices are generating massive investment in solar and wind power.  We're also seeing other "alternatives" like oil sands and CTL, even ethanol, being looked into.  Hybrid automobile technology is opening up the door to electric cars when liquid fuels become scarce.  Then there's always nuclear.  

We have a lot of options on the table, and they are being fully explored now thanks to higher energy prices.  The problem isn't that we don't have a plan and we're not doing anything, the problem is we're still not doing enough.  The expansion of wind and solar power, combined with research into CTL, cleaner coal technology and, yes, even ethanol, give a lot of reason to be optimistic.  Not that there won't be problems, but clearly we have options other than complete societal collapse, which is what's important.  

I think a lot of the doomers here underestimate how quickly our society can change.  Compare 1900 to 1950 to 2000 and look at how different things are.  By 2050 things could be equally different, with trains everywhere and only a few, small electric cars.  


Will,

You have some interesting and very valid points, one in particular and I will come back to that, because I think it is so critical.

Using your numbering system, which makes a thought or two on each of your points so convenient, to your point

  1. "The petroleum industry simply hasn't found large amounts of new oil in a long time."  To some extent true, but I don't know how hard they have been looking in a long time.  The searching methods you describe are relatively recent.  Through the 1980's and 1990's, we have to take their word for how much they have been searching.  With oil and gas at historic lows when inflation adjusted, and oil and gas flowing freely from the North Sea and Persian Gulf, why would they have spent vast amounts looking for it.  Do not be too surprised by some big finds if the price stays about $70 a barrel for very long. On the "Venezuela and Russia" point, we will see.  China once felt that way, as did Libya.  Going it alone is tough, even if you have oil and a very small home population.  Just ask Libya.

  2.  Pickens and Simmons carry some weight given their long experience, and I think the phrase "the best years are behind us" on oil and gas may well be true.  This bodes for tough times, but is not proof of impending peak by itself.  But that is a strong argument to me.

  3. I will get back to....It is big, but in a different way...

  4.  M.E. in overshoot.  Yes, your are certainly correct on that one.  your sentence "The instability there will not be solved with "democracy". It is being resolved with war."  I would differ with that conclusion however....war doesn't seem to be resolving anything.  These are desert environments not suited for supporting massive numbers of very consumptive people.  Only extremely efficient and sustainable design will make it possible over the long haul, and population restrain.  But, this does not directly impinge on oil production, and in fact, only encourages these people to produce and sell as much oil as they can to support their populations.  The idea of the Arabs using the "embargo weapon" declines each day as they need the money more and more.

  5. Is a philosophical discussion.  There are those who believe that a centralized energy program at the federal level could do more harm than good, as it would come under the sway of big money lobbies and persue not what worked best, but what was best lobbied for and paid for.  You mention what you call the "ludicrous" corn to ethanol program.  This is a perfect example of Archer Daniels Midland, General Motors, and the farm lobby getting an "energy program" that may be more consumptive than helpful.  

Now back to your points 3. the one I cosider "the biggie"., the "sinks" problem, in particular on GHG and the "resource depletion" concerning natural resources, biosphere, water, and plant/animal diversity.  I see these as somewhat seperate but yet related to the energy issue.  The fact is, there are many who consider these issues of far more pressing concern than peak oil itself.  Al Gore, who seems to understand the problem of peak oil, in recent remarks on the "David Letterman Show" said, even if we have the oil and other fossil fuel in more than enough abundance, we can't burn it due to the critical Greenhouse Gas issue!  If we accept that theory, then Peak Oil becomes a non-issue anyway.  Even if we find ten new Saudi Arabia's, we cannot burn the fuel, at least not unless we can squester the carbon release!

The carbon release issue poses a whole set of problems different than peak oil.  One writer phrased it as the attempt to get energy without releasing carbon, which essentially rules out most currently existing technology, with or without the fuel to make it run.  If we accept this paradigm as correct, then renewable energy (solar and wind), nuclear fusion, nuclear fission,  and carbon sequestering become the only technology of the day.  And one more thing:  Methane recapture from waste.  

Without carbon sequester, coal to liquid, gas to liquid, tar sand oil, Venesualan heavy oil, oil shale, peat bogs, etc. are all out of the question.

So to me, while different in nature than "peak oil",  it is your argument of the "sinks", in particular the carbon sinks, that carries the most weight, and tells us where we must make our first and most pressing effort.

But again, this is a considerably different nature of problem, and future scenario, than straight up "peak oil" and poses a whole differentt set of problems, some of them perhaps much more daunting to solve than straight ahead peak oil would be.

Either way, we know that conservation and efficient design are the sure ways to bring carbon release down now.  Solar, wind, methane recapture from waste, and use of natural gas and LPG Liquid Petroleum Gas or propane) and carbon sequester to make use of the remaining oil and coal and possibly some tar sand (although I don't hold out high hopes there).

You asked, "What substitutes do we have ready to come online within the next few years as it moves beyond $100 a barrel? None. We have none."

Well, at a $100 a barrel, oil is still relatively cheap, given the amount of energy it has per pound or per square foot.  But the replacement is looking more and more like the electric power grid.  The concept of the plug hybrid may be within two years per Toyota, and they know the hybrid business like nobody in the world. The idea of the "grid based transportation system" is far too radical to go into here (there have been many posts on TOD on it, including some of mine, and also, go check out
http://www.calcars.org

So my argument is still the same:  Peak could have been yesterday, but my bet is still "peak, al liquids" 2020, and a very radical change in transportation fueling (well, not just radical, but completely revolutionary....it will rock the transport/liquid fuel market to the core....:-),, and could in fact leave much oil in the ground, many OPEC and other producers reeling, and collapse in price of oil.  

Then, we attack the carbon sink!  
Thank you for a fascinating discussion!
Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

Will, I think your 5 points are an excellent summary of why we are likely to have very serious problems in the very near future (within 5 to 10 years). In a sense peak oil is not the 'real problem', although it is a very significant part of it. The whole model of developed human life, population, food production, industrialisation, economics and even the basic philosophy of our societies is looking unsustainable. For 'advanced' human societies to survive very major and fundamental changes in human behavior are likely to be needed, the probability is that significant disruption and destruction will be a necessary pre-requisite for such change to happen on sufficient scale.

I think that the recognition of climate change is steadily gaining traction. Much too slowly, true, but soon there should be sufficient significant events like increased extreme weather, summer melting of the Arctic ice cap, to foster the chance of at least some serious policy and behavior change. However, we'll not know if any positive changes we might make will be sufficient to avert catastrophic climate change until many decades later so, sadly, we will almost certainly do too little, too late.

I would add just one major point to your 5:

6. Our economic and financial systems will be extremely threatened. They will very likely breakdown significantly and quite possibly break almost completely. This will probably severely prejudice our ability to cope with the other problems.