Comparing the entire cycle from stuff in the ground to useful product is more meaningful.

That is one of Roberts main points. He is rightly pointing out that the efficiency of gasoline is being compared to the (slightly positive) energy balance of ethanol. To start from the stuff in the ground, oil/gasoline beats ethanol by a factor of 20 (or more)times, depending on boundaries.

Ethanol does in fact transform some solar energy into usable fuel. But its replacing something that is millions of years of stored solar energy that is more energy dense and of higher quality. To reiterate, if ethanol has an EROI of 1.3:1 and the entire find/refine/distribute oil/gasoline cycle has an EROI of 8:1, then gasoline, from a societal perspective, has 7/.3 =23.33 times more energy return than corn ethanol.

I don't think the gasoline and diesel inputs really count. They could be offset by using ethanol and eventually will be to some degree.

If some of the produced ethanol is used to replace the gasoline and diesel inputs, then that ethanol is no longer available to society, which means smaller input and smaller output. While this might lead to higher net energy, it would require a larger scaling of non-energy inputs.

We have time to aim, fire and shoot only a few alternative energy bullets (along with reducing our energy footprint as a culture). Corn ethanol is a misguided shoot from the hip national waste of one of these precious bullets. I too am tired of rehashing these arguments, but smart well intentioned people are confused. 3 ethanol plants are being built every month, and a year from now there will be 8 built every month, largely coal fired. When the grain ethanol bullet is fired, it will take a decade before the bullet stops. Which is why its important to not go down this path, at least not nationally.

Actually, I agree with just about all of that. In the US ethanol is a farm subsidy first and an energy policy second. From an energy perspective, I think the US would be better served by reducing import tariffs to ethanol and seeing how the whole thing plays out.

However, I see the arguments for and against as being equally confusing. My objective isn't to promote ethanol, particularly grain-based. I have no opinion as yet on cellulosic, but have no reason to believe it is any better at this point.

However, I do think that sugar cane-based ethanol makes sense in a certain regions and only to a scale not greater than 10% of current global consumption.

I think the lack of care in referring to corn-based ethanol as if it is all ethanol is no less confusing than the pro-ethanol falsehoods.  I think that failure to be clear that the accusations are only accurate in referring to a specific process (grain) is as willful and wroimg as any from the other side. The same goes for damning ethanol (or any other potential solution) just because it can not replace every bit of oil product we now use.

I see the arguments for and against as being equally confusing.

YOUR problem!!!

Why is it that we have to rehash these arguments again and again among TOD posters?
You should have made up your mind one way or another and be able to support your position by at least PLAUSIBLE arguments even if challengeable and challenged.

If you don't know what you are talking about keep reading and STFU instead of spreading your confusion.

When you have a good point to make, I wish you would refrain from weakening it with petulant Acronyms. ('STFU')  If it was only your own reputation that was affected, maybe I'd leave it alone, but it really undermines making and keeping a productive discussion going here.

Even without the 'TF' in the middle of it, 'Shut Up' is beneath you or any of us.

Bob Fiske

100 grain ethanol plants in operation.

40 more being built.

7 existing facilites are being expanded.

Not only has the path been paved but they're putting up lights.

It seems to me that the simplest (i.e. ignoring infrastrcture cost, water use, soil damage, etc) relevant metric from a peak oil perspective is the ratio of fossil fuel inputs to useable energy outputs.

Thus:
gasoline: 1 BTU (petroleum) input -> 0.8 BTU output
ethanol: 1 BTU (mix hydrocarbon) input -> 1.3 BTU output

In this context, inputs are just inputs; they may be, but are not necessarily, consumed.  It seems inappropriate to ignore the "input" of oil that becomes gasoline, just because it isn't literally consumed (i.e. burned) in the process.  You still have to put it in the front end, in order to get product out the back end.

Calculated this way, ethanol does beat gasoline.  Fine, so be it.  But it's a very simplified metric, and the net benefit, while positive, is small.

I think that this entire arguement is really a distraction from the bigger question of appropriate energy policy.  The detractors of corn ethanol are wasting their time splitting hairs over the definition of efficiency or EROIE, at least in the context of public debate.  The points that need to be made, loudly and clearly to the public, are these:

  1. If you're concerned about peak oil, ethanol is no solution.  It's positive, but it's not positive enough to offset rising demand coupled with declines in production.

  2. If you're not concerned with peak oil, but just want to reduce oil use (e.g. for national security reasons), then ethanol is still a waste of time.  The externalities are very high, and the return on investment is low compared to energy efficiency measures.

The pro-ethanol lobby has completely bollixed those who are interested in actual sane, sustainable energy policy by focusing excessive attention on the energy return question.  And the ethanol detractors have, for the most part, fallen for it.  We need to stop dancing to their tune, and talking from their frame.  Instead, accept their arguements as being "close enough" to correct, and demonstrate why those arguements are not sufficient to support a national move towards ethanol.

Disclaimer: all the above statements are specifically about corn ethanol.  Sugarcane ethanol is a different story, and cellulotic ethanol is a largely unknown story (and is therefor not a proper basis for making energy policy, IMO).

This is pretty much what I have been trying to say. Thank for doing a better job.