Dems pumped about gas prices

This is my single biggest gripe with the Democratic party. I side with the Democrats on most issues, but their demagoguery on gasoline prices is very annoying to me. I understand that the politics of the issue are effective for them, but do they honestly think things would be different had they been in office? Would they have had the guts to make the drastic changes that we need? And do they really think cheap gas prices are what we need?

Meanwhile, automotive journalist Ed Wallace, in DFW, continues to assure listeners that gasoline prices are coming down, i.e., go ahead and buy the SUV to drive to and from the suburban mortgage. Ed suggests that oil prices may collapse because of a glut of production.  (He continues to assert that Peak Oil is at least 50 years away.)  

IMO, this is the prevailing message that Americans are getting via the media.  

well, i'm a democrat and if i was in office, things would be different.  After 9/11, i would have gone to the people and told them how this tragedy was caused by our dependence upon oil, and that it was time to make the necessary sacrifices to eliminate that dependence to ensure that something like 9/11 never happened again.

People were ready to band together, make a sacrifice, and do something that would make a difference.  It would have worked.  But, of course, the repubs pissed away the greatest opportunity in history to make the world better.

The question is, would Al Gore have taken the opportunity after 9/11?  I personally think that he would have, and I would love to peak into that alternate universe where he was rightfully sworn in as president (instead of this really bad joke of a universe where the greatest failure in history has been sworn in).

Yeah, it's a pity. I was thinking pretty much the same thing after 9/11 — they'll come to their senses now and promote energy alternatives and conservation. Little did I know, they do not have any senses to which to come.

I'm pretty sure Al Gore would have taken such measures, and the right wing would have made screeching noises and thown feces from their cages. I could live with the screeching noises more easily than the hard crash we're headed for now.

The fact that the democrats would rather engage in useless political posturing, rather than addressing the very serious issues at hand suggests to me that they don't have the guts, nor the vision, to make the drastic changes needed.

Completely agree. The "strategy" is reprehensible.
Well...hmmm..."useless political posturing"...I believe the Democrats learned from the Republicans that this is how people get elected these days.

"addressing the very serious issues at hand"

"don't have guts, nor vision"

"drastic changes"

My, my...so tell me who in the recent past has displayed that they can do those things.  Certainly not the current administration.

I think you're being hypocritical to say the least.

My, my...so tell me who in the recent past has displayed that they can do those things.  Certainly not the current administration.

I think you're being hypocritical to say the least.

Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

Given that 1). I have never, ever defended the current administration; and 2). This was a story specifically discussing the actions of Democrats with respect to high gas prices, how, pray tell, is it that I am being hypocritical? To say the least.

Sorry, but I see now that your response wasn't directed at me. My apologies.
No...that's ok.

I promised myself I wouldn't give a damn about politics anymore and here I go.

It's going to be an ugly mess of an election this fall and these are just the first shots off the bow (Dems capitalizing on gas prices, Republicans trying to get the prices down, character assassination on both sides, etc.)

In the meantime, Rome burns...frustrating.

And I wish to note that neither party has done anything close to what's necessary...perhaps I'm harder on the Dems because we've already seen the Repubs plan...resource wars and not much else.
Frankly, not much of a stratagy; more like a short-term tactic.  Since the D's have no plan to significantly lower fuel/oil prices, they will be vulnurable to the same tactic if they win control of either house this November.

Besides, I like higher and higher fuel prices.

No, I agree...we need higher gas prices to change behaviors and the Democrats probably know this too.  But, they have to get elected first.  So they will have to play to people's emotions and pocketbooks.  That will score points that way.  

Once they gain some power, they can whatever they want.  Promises made during elections are not necessarily delivered once in office (that's kind of a rule isn't it).

I have a relative in a Congressperson's office (whom I ply with peak oil info to the extent I can without becoming a pest) and he acknowledges that the gas prices issue has everything to do with getting elected and that afterwards they can take a more comprehensive approach.  What that would mean I don't know.  
So much for democracy when even the highest minded citizens acknowledge that it is necessary to lie to get elected because it is assumed that the electorate is so stupid that they can't handle the truth. (Big sigh)
I would go so far as to say it's not just assumed, it's also 100% true.  
e pluribus unum
Democrats and Republicans each represent a diverse ecology of economic, political, social and cultural interests, concerns, and beliefs.

In both parties there are a wide range of emotional, intellectual, political and spiritual maturity and various degrees of honesty, integrity and clarity.

The collective challenges we face cannot be meaningfully addressed with the proverbial 5-minute elevator speech. We need to build relationships with allies and those we may too readily identify as adversieries.

My own bias is to look for the most mature leadership across the artifical boundaries that too often seperate us and provide a whole systems framework that encompasses energy, the living environment, public health and social cohesion, land use and transportation, economics and finance, science and technology, and shared values and concerns.

There is a slow but growing sense that there is a crisis a brewing. And the more clear, consise, confident and kind we can be in orienting one another during this transition, the more likely we will cultivate the collobrative skills necessary to be truly helpful to the whole.

Pipe dream.

(I am not a murikan but I still fear the "collateral damages")

That was a beautiful speech, now for a little reality.  

We first have to get to the "mature" leadership level.   When I hear "mature", I usually think of someone that doesn't take petty shots at people, is secure in their identity, that tries to be honest, that can handle the bad news as well as the good, that tries to work cooperatively with others.

Now, please tell me who in power or soon to be in power (Democrat or Republican) is going to fit that bill?  

Being nice and kind is not in the nature of the US political process at this moment in time.  Perhaps a national crisis will change all that, but I hate to have to wait for the crisis to find out.

who's who in this crazy zoo
Chuck Hagel and Barack Obama both strike me as sincere, intelligent and honest. Gore seems to have grown considerably since his loss in 2000.

But national and regional leadership doesn't have to emerge from the usual suspects. Both Clinton and Carter were relatively obscure before winning the highest US elected office.

And we shouldn't necessarily limit our list of potential leaders to those in the political arena.

reality bites

We do agree that the current political process doesn't attract and mature leadership.

There's no shortage of cynicism, excessive pride, fear and anger, greed and hopelessness.

But how often do we individually cultivate our own capacity to, in Ghandi's words, "become the change we seek"?

Yes...I was thinking Obama may be one of the few that has the charisma and integrity to get something done...we'll see.
The Republicans have shown they will use anything and everything, any opportunity for political advantage.  Now you see the Democrats doing it and you think it's "bad" politics.

Christ, at least they are not attacking people for NOT being patriotic or really getting injured during combat.

So when I see people bashing the Democrats for trying to get elected by any means possible, I think it's hypocritical.

There are no more "etiquette" rules for elections anymore, Robert.  The Republicans made sure of that in 2004.

Dragonfly, ultimately I think you'll find that the two parties are in fact two sides of the same coin. I see only minor tactical issues between republicans and democrats. On the current policies, both foreign and domestic, they are very much in tune.

Its not hypocritical to bash democrats for not acting as a true opposition party. They should be taken to task for it. Who needs republican-lite? There needs to be a true political alternative, and right now I don't see it.

Time will tell who's viewpoint is correct. But if democrats do take the House in Nov. and nothing sustantive changes, don't say I didn't tell you so beforehand.

Robert, I was also replying more to shepseskaf than you.
Yeah, I saw that only after I posted. Again, my apologies.
Well...hmmm..."useless political posturing"...I believe the Democrats learned from the Republicans that this is how people get elected these days.

I never indicated that politicians of both parties haven't engaged in posturing/bloviating to to get elected. The results speak for themselves. Since the democrats seem to be following the republican lead in this, they're rendering themselves just as useless.

I think that you construed my comments as an ad hominem attack on the democrats. It wasn't. I was merely stating that I don't agree with the many who seem to feel that a change in leadership this November will ultimately mean much in regard to the most pressing issues facing this country being addressed.

My, my...so tell me who in the recent past has displayed that they can do those things. Certainly not the current administration.

To me, it really doesn't matter whether politicians in the recent past have displayed that they can address issues like Peak Oil. What matters is that what happens now. If the current crop can't get the job done, then they need to be replaced. That refers to members of both parties. Someone obviously needs to forcefully articulate the fact that this country is headed for disaster and measures need to be proposed to help steer the boat towards the shore, and away from the precipice. Posturers and bloviators are not going to get the job done.

Finally, I do think that in the past (if not the recent past) politicians on both sides of the aisle have addressed the serious issues at hand, and displayed guts and vision in advocating for drastic changes. If its happened before, it can happen again.

OK...I take back some hostility.  Just as long as we are bashing both parties equally.  I agree that there has been greatness displayed within both parties in the past and this could always happen again.  There just seems to have been a massive drought of greatness in recent history.

I've seen a few rainshowers of hope, but nothing like the squall we really need to break the drought.

Here's to hope for greatness in the future and more choices for leadership in this coutnry.

What I see around me is a feeling of 'throw the bastards (incumbents) out!'. Wheather they are Dems or Reps matters not. If the incumbent is challanged in the primaries (a la Lieberman) then he/she may lose there. If unchallanged the incumbent is likely to be defeated by the challanger from the opposition party. However these people are usually party pols rather than independant thinkers so may very well toe the party line even more than those they are replacing. The voters have no knowledge of how these newcommers think on much of anything. It sure would be nice to have some new(good) ideas to vote for!
They do not. This is why people like RR will ultimately become disillusioned and why the system will collapse. Those with the vision and knowledge to make a leap forward to a more sustainable future cannot displace those that play the system for their own social standing because the bulk of the rest of us don't want to hear the truth; we want to hear what lets us sleep well at night.

Goodnight America. The Democrats are proof that the country is going down.

Not exactly posturing, bear in mind Hillary wants to send more troops to mideast.

But in the bigger picture, the Dems are every bit the creature of the neo-liberal Washington Consensus as are the Rs. At least here in Maine, they don't want to touch energy/food/housing/work/income issues. It's all about "what can we do for big business today". Money, campaign contributions, who the leadership gets to hang out with and who they admire - that all plays a part - but there is something else, that most 'mericans of any party can't imagine they have the power to make any changes. Not that any are needed, after all, because the economy is doing just great and McDonald's is handing out Hummer toys. That iron triangle thing. The typical 'merican politician is a clueless corporate stooge; his job is to use politics to move the trough to his crew of corporate buddies.

Maine's energy policy amounts to buying 50 more Priuses and a night out at Al Gore's movie.

Beyond that, no, the Dems don't have the guts or vision to handle what's coming down the road. They cannot deliver on their promises to the voters in this post peak scenario. The tide is going out, not rising.

Of course, they'll keep delivering for their real masters.

Experts warn U.S. Is coming apart at the seams. The Democrats should be able to handle that, but not any more. Their whole concept of more power to government doesn't work: the progressive rationale has collapsed because more regulation only leads to more corporate predation. The big guys have bought the process from start to finish. How Peak Oil and a lot more of LESS is going to affect our political process is going to be fascinating. The Rs are structurally capable of dealing with Peak Oil; they have the castles, the gold and the churches. The Dems got debts and two jobs to put food on the table while their leaders are dining in the castles.

cfm in Gray, ME

What would you have them do?  They hold neither chamber of Congress, nor the WH, and the Republicans have done a masterful job of locking them out of almost every part of national governance.

At this point, all the Dems can do is campaign like hell so they can get into power and then do something.

Then it would be nice if they would campaign like hell. Don't see it.

They're not - at all.

All the big name Democrats are in the pockets of Republicans, supporting the war and business as usual.

Garth

Replying to
"Then it would be nice if they would campaign like hell. Don't see it."

As a Dem precinct captain I would much rather see the involvement of "it would be nice if WE would campaign like hell" rather than the apathy and detachment of "they would campaign like hell".
Certainly the Dem's have more than their share of clueless demagogues and the pandering on gas prices irritates me too. But the Dem's also have people like Reps Mark Udall(CO)and Tom Udall(NM) that have been strong leaders for R&D in renewable energy/energy efficiency.
I would urge TODers to get off their duffs (and off this blog for a little while) and get involved in politics at the local street level. It is interesting/educational and sometimes you win! Colorado Dems took back the Colorado House and Senate from the Repubs last election, preventing all kinds of evil-doing.
If you don't like a candidate's position, support an opponent in the primary, run yourself, or challenge the candidate to defend their ideas. Personally I have had good conversations with several Democratic office-holders where we both learned about peak oil, renewables, efficiency, and implementation details.
Colorado passed Amendment 37 , requiring a minimum renewable power production as a result of grassroots citizen activism.

Well, what exactly are they supposed to do seeing as the Republicans control all three branches of government?  Complaining about the Dems is just dumb, IMO, because it's clear the Republicans aren't doing anything worthwile.  Throw them out and maybe we'll have luck with the new guys in town.  Certainly it can't be worse than our current government.  
Most Americans, including many of our elected officials, believe that high gas prices are caused by conniving oil companies and price fixing by OPEC. This view is only helped by the record profits of most oil companies. Most people see this as price gouging rather than companies doing what they're supposed to do. The average person doesn't believe we are running out of oil. I also think that many of our politicans hold this same view. I'm sure a select few understand the reality of PO, but not the majority.

Given these facts, their posturing is understandable. Plus, they are politicans after all. What do you expect them to do? ;-)

The Great Myth of the Deomocratic Party is that big (oil) corporations are the problem, and they must be Punished to make Everything All Better Again under Fearless Democrats who will whip the Evil Ones into shape.

The Great Myth of the Republican Party is that corporation executives are Public Servants who use the Magical Mystery Powers of The Market to solve all our problems and make Everything All Better Again--just give them a few more tax breaks;-)

With few exceptions (e.g. the late Paul Welstone), I rarely vote for major-party candidates.

I'd say that captures a lot of the reality.  Neither myth is that useful to us ... but I'd say those are the non-peak-aware default positions of the two parties.
There is no "good" party and no "bad" party. Both parties are wrong on energy.

But we "don't" need an energy policy that encourages consumption, and the American way of life must be negotiable. And we must get out of this dumb, stupid civil war in Iraq! Those people will be fighting that war 100 years from now unless one side completely kills off the other.

So we must choose the lesser of two evils. And it is my opinion that the Democrats are by far and away the lesser of the two evils.

Ron Patterson

The key issue between the two parties is not Peak Oil, but dictatorship.
When Dick Cheney made his speech in 1999 while still at Halliburton, he said that increasing oil production would be a "challenge" and implied that the blame was on the major nationalized oil companies.  Which happened to be Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.  That in turn fit into the ultra-capitalist ideology that his people, Bush and the Christian Right imposed on the GOP - not an ideology of fair competition at home and peaceful trade abroad, but the idea that any human anywhere on earth who did not serve the purposes of certain corporations was an enemy of what Cheney called "The American Way of Life".  Which was non-negotiable.  Which is dictatorship.

All of that in turn fit the agenda of the Project for a New American Century, calling for America not just to maintain military superiority, but to destroy any society, democratic or not, that dared challenge American supremacy.  Access to oil could allow a rising Asian industrial power to do that.

I think Cheney at the very least was waiting for an incident to overwrite this aggressive ideology on the views of "normal" capitalists who aren't very different whether they are Republicans or Democrats.  Think of it as an artificial attempt to do here what occurred in Britain between the early Victorian era (free trade) and the late Victorian era (world conquest and Christianization).  Both are the result of an aging society with declining ability to make anything useful.  The Neocons may have had a sick fantasy that a neo-Victorian America could civilize the world by grabbing at the levers of power, and mourned the sort of constrained democracy that existed in late Victorian Britain, where church, state and capital worked together to brainwash a formerly restless population (the Chartist movement, Luddism) into supporting imperialism and militarism through a meaningless 2-party system.  To me, that is as bad as a dictatorship, because it is harder to identify and oppose.

Cheney didn't expect China to grow so quickly, or Iraq to be pacified so slowly.  That created a danger that many mainstream capitalists would defect like they did in 1992.  The administration's moves at authoritarianism at first were not out of line with what you'd expect in Europe in the late Victorian age (everyone had an Interior Ministry and spied on reformers).  Since 2004, the restraints are all off.  The stupid neo-cons probably wanted to create a Victorian age that went on forever without that unfortunate 1914 matter, but now like the authorities of that age, the leaders of this project must now preach militarism, perpetual armament, aggressive Christianity, exaggerated grievance, and fear of terrorism (it was Anarchists back then).  That paved the way for August 1914.

The Democrats would not have initiated this process even if they had understood the threat of Peak Oil because the process was designed to create a very extreme end point.  They would have muddled their way into the resource wars like they muddle their way into everything.  It took the Europeans maybe 40-50 years to get from imperialism to resource competition to war.  But ironically, the very desire of the neocons to use "shock therapy" to accelerate neo-Victorian America into unstoppable might before it was too late has accelerated both the growth of tyranny and the certainty of its failure.    We could reach 1914 in only a few years, or a few months, and this time we've all got nukes.
 

Have you read William Engdahl's "Century of War?" I've only just gone through the preface but already the discussion of the English empire rings true. I only question why you use the word 'dictatorship' rather than 'fascist state?' Doesn't that more accurately describe the corporate/state hegemony now being created by Cheney, Exxon Mobile, and Bill Gates?
Doesn't that more accurately describe the corporate/state hegemony now being created by Cheney, Exxon Mobile, and Bill Gates?

Of your list, the  only one someone has a choice of is Bill Gates.  And with effort, one can choose a different state.

i saw the 6 hour documentary named after it. though while it was good it focused too much on race, it pictured it as the primary motivator above all else. it did not even touch any of the energy issues that also drove ww1 and ww2. it did mention in only a single sentence that the Germans in ww2 wanted the Russian oil fields but downplayed the strategic importance of it to the Germans.
I wanted to be particular in my choice of words.  "Fascist" has been tarred and feathered as a word only used by cranks.  There have been many kinds of dictatorships, while fascism is seen by most of us as referring to just a few mid 20th century dictatorships, thus it is just a kind of dictatorship.

It is logical that in the 21st century we will see new kinds of dictatorships.  But I lived in the Philippines in the mid 1970s and briefly in 1985, and saw an example of a dictatorship that hardly seemed the stark horror that "fascism" evokes.  Here's the Ferdinand Marcos formula for taking over a former US colony whose institutions were patterned on the US:

Elected in 1963 in the usual dirty campaign.  Country has the 2nd highest per capita GNP in East Asia.

Declares temporary martial law in the late '60s due to the usual political gangsterism plus a supposed Communist terrorist threat.

Extends martial law in the early '70s as the new threat becomes the Moslem separatists in the far south.  The country was decaying already, overly dependent on agricultural exports, hit hard by high oil prices, its population growing out of sight.  When I lived there then all American GIs assumed that all Filipinos were corrupt.

Soon the country's economy was failing, and Marcos & the Mrs. really began ransacking it.  I think eventually the "growth" rate of the country reached negative 7%, as it became one of the poorest in East Asia.

Marcos spent a lot of time hogging the media spotlight and the Mrs. came up with lots of "beautify Manila" crap.  In 1975 one could live on Clark AFB for years and hardly know that political opponents were being harassed or beaten.  His most prominent opponent, Mr. Aquino, had been expelled, but no one was talking about concentration camps.  There was still a legislature and multiple political parties.  The corruption more and more was shifting from the traditional landlord elite to the cronies of Marcos, who had risen from a lower class.  The really bad stuff hadn't happened yet, but even at its worst, I don't think Marcos was ever considered organized enough or competent enough to qualify as even a Mussolini-level fascist.

I think much of the above has parallels with America today.  New Orleans is exactly the kind of fiasco one expects from a state hollowed out by cronyism.  I guess those familiar with Latin America probably aren't too surprised by anything Bush & Co. do either.

What makes America a unique threat is its power over the rest of the world.  You put Marcos in the White House and he probably starts a few foreign wars instead of playing up some rural insurgencies.  Because of this power, when the Administration screws up, it keeps punishing the outside world, which then gets more hostile to the US, so on and so forth.  I agree that the neocons and especially the Christian Right have the ideological concepts to take us all the way to fascism.  But it appears that in America, in reverse of Germany, dictatorship must come first so as to indoctrinate the public with fascist principles.

Another scary possibility: the neocons will fail and Bush will leave, but the Christians will enclose their 30-40% of the population in a propaganda bubble, and from 2008 to 2012  the Democrats will get the blame for all the consequences unleashed by Bush.  The Christians will then openly proclaim the ideology of Christian Reconstructionism (or Dominionism - check it out), and impose "fascism" as an outsider party coming to America's rescue after an energy collapse.  I hope that America will be greatly weakened by then and unable to harm everyone else, but it's hard to tell.

We do not and never will have a dictatorship in this country--we are too wary of authority. GW is merely an anti-authority, a good ole' boy working for the corporate state. That is what Mussolini developed and what we now have here.  From wiki, Fascismo: "a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism." Hitler was a dictator and his state was national-socialist. The end result of was the same-forever war.
"We are too wary of authority."
I wish. We adore authority. If you ever loudly said Fuck You to an airport screener, an aggressive cop, any authority figure at all, how many of your fellow citizens would quickly leap to your aid?
'We do not and never will have a dictatorship in this country-  ..'  http://www.motherbird.com/Can'tHap.htm

"It Can't Happen Here"  Sinclair Lewis, 1935

"Sinclair Lewis asks the question - what if some ambitious politician would use the 1936 presidential election to make himself dictator by promising quick, easy solutions to the depression - just as Hitler had done in Germany in 1933."

"...     Lewis's novel was supposed to be made into a film in 1936, but Will Hays who was in charge of censorship for the movie studios, used all his power and stopped the film from being made. Hays felt that a film of this novel would be seen as an attack on the Republican party. "

pstarr wrote
"GW is merely an anti-authority, a good ole' boy working for the corporate state. "
 -- That's Goood Cool-Aid!  He's as far from being a 'good-ol' boy' as you can get, but you seem to have bought the paint-job.

I think you nailed it pretty well.

Anyone who believes there is much difference between the parties is sadly mistaken.  

If you have ever read what it takes to get another party on ballots in each state, you will realize that the Dem/Rep's made it virtually impossible.  

Good Cop / Bad Cop

Here, let me interject a good word for Roscoe Bartlett, Republican Representative from Maryland.  If other house members would actually attend his lectures, perhaps we'd have more awareness on this issue.  He's the best person in the house or senate on this issue, and it so happens that he is a republican.
You know thinking about ole Roscoe got me thinking...is there any way we could list politicians on both sides of the line that the TOD would endorse.  Ones that seem to have a realistic pattern of thinking when it comes to energy, transportation, etc. as we gaze upon the impending peak?

Or is it not the mission of TOD to try to affect politics?

IMO that's an excellent idea.  We need to focus on this next election.  
I am a Democrat but this kind of nonsense tends to convince me that there really is very little hope regardless of the party chosen.  The Dems play into the naive notion that all we have to do is punish the oil companies and all will be better. The better long term strategy is to make the oil companies and countries irrelevant.  We should be raising prices, not lowering them.
Their plan is for all gas stations to go back to $1.50 gas - but with empty storage tanks - at least the sheeple will happy.
This is my complaint as well.

The damage the Dems are doing by using this demogogue strategy is incalculable, in my book.

Locally, the Democrats have even run content on their Air America propaganda station bashing one of our local news anchors -- Don Shelby -- for doing an edictorial commentary calling for less consumption of gasoline. The local Democratic pundits heaped scorn on the notion that we are increasing our usage of gasoline(!) and defended the right to drive more and in whatever car one chooses -- the whole deal.

Political discourse in our country is completely divorced from reality, and is merely designed to manipulate and seduce the populace into engaging in a process which diverts energy from making a meaningful difference in the world.

The way to make change is to change the way we live and to form community efforts in making change.

There is no possibility for liberating US politics from the grip of various elites absorbed in their own (mostly comfortable) reality bubbles.

Politics will change when people liberate themselves from the political process and begin to make positive, sustainable change even as the corrupt "Empire" struggles to prevent its own implosion.

Live the change. Speak truth to power.  Eventually, some of the truth might make a difference in the political discourse.  It is more likley that those speaking truth to power will be marginalised and scape-goated.  Life goes on.