The FED is so corrupt that the revenues raised would just be wasted through the usual pork barrel, earmarked appropriations that line pockets and get us no where.

I agree, but I think the funds must primarily be given back as tax credits in order to sell the tax increase. I envision determining how much the gas tax would impact the average income family, and giving back a tax credit to offset this. That tax credit would gradually vanish at higher income levels. A portion should be earmarked for funding NREL and similar agencies, or for giving rebates to help purchase fuel efficient cars.

I think taxes need to be levied, but at the state and local level where there's much greater accountability and transparency and citizen input as to how revenues are spent.

If every state would implement a similar tax, that would work. But they won't. California might put on a $1 tax, and if Nevada and Oregon didn't follow suit there would be a lot of Californians driving across the border to get their gas.

State and Local accountable?

Bwahahahahahaha!

Here in Illinois, we just sent a governor to prison. Chicago corruption is legendary.

The problems arise when you don't send them to prison, not when you do.
A lot of Californians already do drive into Oregon for gas, mostly along 101 from Crescent City to Brookings; otherwise, the distances are too far and negate any savings. [Local taxes in Humboldt and Del Norte counties create quite a price disparity, which at times I've seen at 50-60 cents/gal.] When I was in Tahoe about 18 months ago, the same dynamic was in place as CA tax is lower than NV tax.

If you provide credits to offset the tax, then you severly decrease the revenues for your project. IMO, monies for PO and AGW must come from the general fund because the monies needed to do anything serious is far greater than the amount raised by a gas tax net of credits alone. I offered a national solution for this quite awhile ago at TOD.v1--The dismantling of the global US Empire and its support structures would free up over a trillion dollars per YEAR to use toward mitigating AGW and PO, with no new taxes needed other than the repealing of Cheney's tax cuts. And just think of the drastic reductions in carbon emissions and petroleum use rolling-back the Empire would make possible. IMO, Powerdown starts with Imperial rollback.

If you provide credits to offset the tax, then you severly decrease the revenues for your project.

The objective is not to generate (net) revenue. I agree that going that route would kill any chance of success. The objective is merely to raise the price of gas, raising the incentive for conservation and alternatives - without punishing consumers. It has to be more or less a "free lunch" in order to sell.

We could even sell it as a "punish Big Oil". Because conservation will cause less gasoline to be sold, it will have a negative impact on revenues. So, I might have to fight Big Oil on this one.

If it has the effect you hope, it will have to increase it each year if it's to remain revenue-neutral.  

Personally, a gas tax refunded via a cut in payroll taxes would be a great deal for me.  I don't drive much, since I live walking distance from my office.  

But if everyone does what I'm doing, the government will be losing money, unless the gas tax increases or the rebate decreases.

You probably would need to pay attention to careful matching of revenues to credits.

Interesting, there are two potential stimuli to the economy: revenue would decline, increasing the deficit, and so would the transfer to oil states: the "oil tax" effect.  

In theory you'd need to reduce the credit faster than revenues declined, to keep the economy on an even keel.

RR: I think it is a grand idea, but as I said to WesTexas some time ago, I think it a political dead end.

There are enormous constituencies for low gas prices, and very few for raising gas prices. Any politician who voted to raise the prices of gas would be voted out post haste.

I don't believe that our present Congress would pass such a bill, and I'm positive Bush would never sign it into law. In addition, I find it hard to believe that ANY future Congress would vote to raise these taxes. And what future president would sign it into law?

Better to let progressive shortages do the price lifting for us. Even if the price is coming down now, nothing short of a major recession will protect prices from going up next year. And the year afterwards, etc.

>The objective is merely to raise the price of gas, raising the incentive for conservation and alternatives - without punishing consumers.

Another words, you want a solution where everyone can continue to chow down two large pizzas and a large cake without gaining a single ounce. Do you remember the phrase "No Pain, No Gain"?

What makes you think the program would have no pain?  Every gallon would come with another dose of financial pain; the fact that the average person would get more money back than their extra fuel taxes wouldn't change that.  Bulk purchasing power and marginal cost are two different things, and incentives are set at the margin.
>What makes you think the program would have no pain?  Every gallon would come with another dose of financial pain

Because Roberts plan is to refund tax money back. Therefore consumers aren't truely burdened by the tax.

You just moved the goal posts; you changed "incentive" to "burden".  (You also fail to note that the effect on profligate users probably would be a burden.)

Most people aren't burdened by the cost of home lighting, but they still have a strong incentive to buy CF lamps and capture the savings.  Same thing with a gas tax and per-earner (i.e. not influenced by gas consumption) refund.

When traveling between Michigan and Iowa I always top off the tank before crossing into Illinois. Last trip the difference between Iowa and Illinois was 33 cents. We already have a race to the bottom between the states over other forms of taxation.
A fossil carbon tax needs to be effectively global to prevent even more flight of manufacturing to the 3rd world. A tarriff on goods based on embodied fossil energy could bring this close to reality.
I still think Carter's oil import quota concept would be more effective than a simple tax.
I don't think that import quotas would be productive.  All they would do is (if there was enough oil in the world) make it cheaper for overseas consumers than those in the USA.  It would also tend to divert oil-intensive activities to the rest of the world, which might be less productive overall.
No go. Congress would probably credit it back on some awesomely complicated, corrupt, and/or counterproductive basis, like a lot of other things. Maybe they would use the revenue to make the mortgage deduction even juicier, thus defeating the purpose. They can't resist the urge to play dictator, to engage in social engineering.
I agree with Robert. The magic words that would get a significant gas tax on the books are "revenue neutral".

The gas tax scheme that I invision would be very simple:

  • Tax all fossil fuel sales at a rate determined by the TOD poll.
  • Split the proceeds equally among all citizens.

Since most people think that they are less than average users, this scheme might actually sell.
"Since most people think that they are less than average users, this scheme might actually sell."

ha ha!  That wouldn't suprise me a bit.  But one thing I'd try for is a zippy name.  Because you can't fly anything unpopular without a good name.  So I propose the the following:
Patriot Tax
Energy Independance Tax
Energy Security Tax
Homeland Defense Tax

I'm sure someone out there will have something better...any takers?

"If every state would implement a similar tax, that would work. But they won't. California might put on a $1 tax, and if Nevada and Oregon didn't follow suit there would be a lot of Californians driving across the border to get their gas."

***
I don't think so.  Very few Californians live within 100 miles of either the Nevada or Oregon borders.  It COULD work in California if there were the political will here.

AS

No kidding.  The areas bordering Oregon and Nevada are fairly low population compared to the rest of the state.  Most of our biggest cities are on the coast, and there's really not much of anything North of San Francisco.  And seriously, how many people are going to drive 100 miles to get cheaper gas?  I'd say driving even 50 miles round trip would be stretching it (25 miles from the border).  Even if it made sense from a strict financial standpoint, because the difference in cost was large enough, most people value their time, or simply don't have enough time, to be driving an extra 100-200 miles round trip per week.  We totally could make a big difference on our consumption by levying a gas tax.  

But, same problem as at the Federal level, we don't have the will.  People in the U.S. don't have the right mentality for a gas tax.  Put simply, collectively we just don't give a damn.  This is different than how things our in Europe where there is real concern about the impact of pollution and thus people are more accepting.  I've said this before elsewhere when discussing this topic and I'll say it again here: our problems are not political, they are cultural!  And changing an entire culture is extremely difficult and it doesn't happen over night.  

>I envision determining how much the gas tax would impact the average income family, and giving back a tax credit to offset this

If understand this correctly. You want to impose a gas tax and then refund the money back to consumers? How will that curb consumption? All consumers will do is funnel that tax credit back into their consumption. Some enterprising business will offer loans on their gas tax credit (as the do for income tax returns) so that consumers can continue immediate gradification spending habits.

Plus how do you track consumption? Do you think major of will keep all thier gas reciepts. I can't imagine the waste of man-hours (and energy) involve in managing all of the paper work.

The only real way for the US to curb global consumption is to raise interest rates.

>. That tax credit would gradually vanish at higher income levels.

Thats silly. For high income families, even high prices of 4 or 5 dollars isn't going to change their consumption habits. Hell some of them charter private jets for $7K to $10K for a weekend getaway. An gas tax that can be afforded by the low and middle classes is peanuts for the wealthly.

>A portion should be earmarked for funding NREL and similar agencies, or for giving rebates to help purchase fuel efficient cars.

Fuel efficient cars are already tax deductable. A better option would to increase the gas-guzzler tax and increase the milage rating so that more vehicles are exposed to this tax. The Tax revenues should be used to fund PO mitigation projects, such as water projects to supplement aquifier depletion in the mid west. If people cant eat, it does really matter if they can drive a efficient car or can use public transportation.

You want to impose a gas tax and then refund the money back to consumers? How will that curb consumption? All consumers will do is funnel that tax credit back into their consumption.

But they won't necessarily spend it on gasoline. They might consume, but they have an incentive now to conserve. They will have more money at the end of the day by choosing conservation options.

Plus how do you track consumption? Do you think major of will keep all thier gas reciepts. I can't imagine the waste of man-hours (and energy) involve in managing all of the paper work.

You wouldn't do it like that. You figure out what the average consumption is, and you base refunds on that. Those who consume more than average will be penalized, and will give that penalty to those who consume less. Those who consume less will be rewarded.

Thats silly. For high income families, even high prices of 4 or 5 dollars isn't going to change their consumption habits.

Then they shall surrender cash to those who do change their consumption habits. That is the point. The winners will be those who decrease their consumption. Their winnings will come from those who choose not to.

>But they won't necessarily spend it on gasoline. They might consume, but they have an incentive now to conserve. They will have more money at the end of the day by choosing conservation options.

Spend it on what? What ever they spend it on is going to use fossil fuels. What if they use the refund money to on a vacation 3000 miles away. So instead of using refined gasoline, they use refined jet fuel from the supply of oil. How does that make a difference? What if the gas tax makes it cheaper to fly instead of driving? Or perhaps they will fill up with Ethanol or diesel or some other fuel that does have the tax?

>You wouldn't do it like that. You figure out what the average consumption is, and you base refunds on that. Those who consume more than average will be penalized, and will give that penalty to those who consume less. Those who consume less will be rewarded.

How do you do that?  What if I am a handman, repairman or a plow man that requires me to travel for my job. Do you penalize them when its absolutely necessary for them to use a large amount of fuel? Sorry, but you haven't thought this through at all.

>Then they shall surrender cash to those who do change their consumption habits. That is the point. The winners will be those who decrease their consumption. Their winnings will come from those who choose not to.

It wouldn't work that way. The money given back will simply be use to consume products and services that use fossil fuels. All you will accomplish is shifting consumption slightly different and perhaps into different refined petro. products.

If you haven't figured it out yet, Money is stored energy that can be redeemed in just about any form the consumer wishes it to be. The only real way to cut consumption is to cut GDP or decrease the population.

Spend it on what? What ever they spend it on is going to use fossil fuels.

Use fossil fuels at what level? The fact is that countries with high gasoline taxes have lower per capita energy consumption. Coincidence?

What if I am a handman, repairman or a plow man that requires me to travel for my job. Do you penalize them when its absolutely necessary for them to use a large amount of fuel?

Were they penalized over the past year due to high gas prices? What's going to happen to them after oil production peaks and prices skyrocket? Well, they could certainly raise their rates to cover the fuel increase, and I believe they can deduct the cost of fuel that they consume doing their job - even now.

All you will accomplish is shifting consumption slightly different and perhaps into different refined petro. products.

Countries with high gasoline taxes refute your argument. There is a strong correlation between the size of the gasoline tax and per capita energy usage - even in the U.S. among different states.

>Use fossil fuels at what level? The fact is that countries with high gasoline taxes have lower per capita energy consumption. Coincidence?

Robert FWIW, If I have a Chemistry question or a need a someone to dispute Ethanol, your the guy I would ask. When it comes to discussions involving economics and consumption, not so much.

  1. How does decreasing US consumption affect consumption in Asia?

  2. What affect on global market oil prices with a decrease in US consumption have?

  3. What will happen to consumption in Asia if global Oil prices decline?

  4. How can we (the US and Europe) enact policies within our govts to reduce the consumption of fossil fuel in nations that we can't regulation or enact laws in?

>Were they penalized over the past year due to high gas prices? What's going to happen to them after oil production peaks and prices skyrocket?

I am not disputing that we need to reduce consumption. The argument that I trying to get through is that a US gas tax isn't the answer, and isn't going to reduce it if your intention is refund gas tax money back.  From my propective you think you've only got a hammer (gas tax) and every problem is just a nail. Your trying to solve one problem, that prevent the gov't from using new income as a source for more wasteful spending, by refunding gas tax money back to taxpayers. If you give them money back, they just use it to consume energy, perhaps in a different form or perhaps not. You have no way of determing how that refunded money will be spent.

>Countries with high gasoline taxes refute your argument. There is a strong correlation between the size of the gasoline tax and per capita energy usage - even in the U.S. among different states.

None of those countries refund their gasoline taxes back to their tax payers. The use them to find there entitlement programs which is a another whole big discussion. BTW, does European gas taxes and regulation affect US consumption? How will a US tax affect consumption in China, India, and the Middle East?

Hopefully I am getting through!

Best of Luck.

Robert FWIW, If I have a Chemistry question or a need a someone to dispute Ethanol, your the guy I would ask. When it comes to discussions involving economics and consumption, not so much.

Also FWIW, I work in the Planning and Economics group. I do lots of economic analyses.

How does decreasing US consumption affect consumption in Asia?

How has decreasing European consumption affected consumption in the U.S.? Does this mean that European's lower consumption is effectively meaningless? Of course not. They are much better prepared for price spikes and Peak Oil, because they have designed a society around high oil prices. Since we are the world's largest consumer of oil, we need to worry about reducing our own consumption before worrying about what Asia is doing. At the least, we will be better prepared for Peak Oil.

If you give them money back, they just use it to consume energy, perhaps in a different form or perhaps not. You have no way of determing how that refunded money will be spent.

I also have no way of determining how they spend any of their current take home income. But you have no chance of implementing something like this unless it is revenue neutral. Their take-home pay won't change, unless they start conserving. Of course the people who conserve are the least likely to spend extra money on energy, IMO.

Hopefully I am getting through!

I understand Jevon's Paradox quite well, I just don't fully accept it. I also understand your wish to raise interest rates - it is just that I see no path to getting something like that implemented. I see more resistance to that - which might be difficult for Joe Consumer to understand - than a revenue neutral gasoline tax designed to reduce our consumption.

>>How does decreasing US consumption affect consumption in Asia?

>How has decreasing European consumption affected consumption in the U.S.?

Now your are spining by answer my question with an off topic question. Please answer the question "How does decreasing US consumption affect consumption in Asia?" Any  reduction in US consumption will be consumed by Asia. US gas taxation is not a realistic method to control global consumption. Until you can prove that a US gas tax can reduce global consumption your just wasting time. You have not achived any goal.

>They [Europe] are much better prepared for price spikes and Peak Oil, because they have designed a society around high oil prices.

This isn't true, Europe is still very heavily dependant on heating oil, and Natural gas. And I can prove it. Just look at the European Natural Gas crisis and how a lot of business might need to shutdown if they can't get adquite supplies of natural gas. The Gasolinediesel tax has shifted consumption to Natural gas.

Europe's high population density will make it impossible to sustain a modern economy without adquite fossil inputs. For instance, Europe Agraculture is very depend on fossil inputs to maintain high crop yields to feed the population. They are just as unsustainable as the US, and perhaps even worse because they lack any significant coal reserves.

>Their take-home pay won't change, unless they start conserving. Of course the people who conserve are the least likely to spend extra money on energy, IMO.

You cannot increase energy taxes without raising interest rates, otherwise inflation will rise, resulting in higher wages that will remove the expense of the increased taxes. Once inflation kicks in no one will bother to save and opt to spend everything they make in fear of losing it to inflation.

>I understand Jevon's Paradox quite well, I just don't fully accept it.

This isn't about Jevon's Paradox. Its a simple Economics. Global Demand for Oil is already above supply. Therefore if any one nation reduces consumption some one else will immediate use. India and China can not fulfill there current Oil demand. You can read all about their Oil crisis in the India Times. If the US cuts demand by 5 mmb/d tommorrow, it would be immediately bought by China and India. The demand is already there, there will be zero lag.

Am I getting through yet?

>But you have no chance of implementing something like this unless it is revenue neutral

Taxes are not revenue neutral. What other tool is? Answer: Interest rates.

Please answer the question "How does decreasing US consumption affect consumption in Asia?"

This is really silly. This is just Jevon's Paradox. But I reject that argument that we shouldn't try to decrease U.S. consumption just because people in Asia might consume more. Decreasing U.S. consumption decreases the worst-case scenario possibilities in the U.S. Steps that we take to make our society less dependent on fossil fuels are good steps to take, whether Asia increases their consumption or not. It goes right back to my question about decreasing European consumption. Application of your argument would say that this didn't accomplish anything for them.

This isn't true, Europe is still very heavily dependant on heating oil, and Natural gas. And I can prove it.

Reread my statement: Europe is better prepared for Peak Oil. That they are still dependent on heating oil is a straw man, because it doesn't address my argument that they are BETTER PREPARED than we are. And the reason is because fossil fuels are more expensive there. This has lead to less per capita energy usage, fuel efficient vehicles, widespread mass transit, and little suburban sprawl.

>But I reject that argument that we shouldn't try to decrease U.S. consumption just because people in Asia might consume more.

Its not "if they will consume more", its is absolutely asurred. Growth of consumption of Oil in China is constrained by supply. Remove the supply contraint and they will continue to consume more.

Jevons Paradox discusses that conserveration will lead to savings that will fuel growth in the future. In our present situation the demand is already exists. Consumption is contrained by supply. By reducing the US consumption would permit additional oil to flow to India and China help meet their current demand. There would be zero net decline in global consumption

Consider the 1973 Arab Oil embargo. During this time, the demand for oil was above consumption because of supply contraints. When the embargo ended supply consumption immediately increased. This is the situation China and India. have. They already have the infrastructure and population to consume a much larger amount of Oil. The only thing that is holding them back is the amount of oil they can purchase on the open markets.

>Europe is better prepared for Peak Oil.

This isn't accurate. This is would require a lengthy off-topic discussion, and is far off topic anyway.

I am not disputing that we need to reduce consumption. The argument that I trying to get through is that a US gas tax isn't the answer, and isn't going to reduce it if your intention is refund gas tax money back.
So long as gas is cheap, US consumers aren't going to act to use less of it.  We've subsidized ethanol (a failure at less than 5% displacement) and tried CAFE regulations (a failure which did not even prevent the SUV phenomenon).  Taxes are the one thing we haven't tried.
If you give them money back, they just use it to consume energy, perhaps in a different form or perhaps not.
Maybe they use it to buy energy-saving vehicles, solar panels, or the like.
You have no way of determing how that refunded money will be spent.
This is by design.  Purchases with less embodied energy will be more attractive to the consumer.  Purchases which replace energy consumption with other things will be more attractive.  All virtuous choices become more attractive; the government wouldn't have to go picking them out one at a time, allowing the markets to find solutions that policy-makers never would.
None of those countries refund their gasoline taxes back to their tax payers. The use them to find there [sic] entitlement programs which is a another whole big discussion.
The US doesn't have huge entitlement programs aside from Social Security and Medicare.  Even Medicaid is being cut back.  If you think voters will accept diversion of tax funds after they've been promised a full offset, I think you misjudge the electorate.
How will a US tax affect consumption in China, India, and the Middle East?
How does Chinese dependence on Middle East energy affect US energy security?  Aside from making it far more difficult to market foreign-built guzzlers to the US consumer, that is.
>So long as gas is cheap, US consumers aren't going to act to use less of it.  We've subsidized ethanol (a failure at less than 5% displacement) and tried CAFE regulations (a failure which did not even prevent the SUV phenomenon).  Taxes are the one thing we haven't tried.

I am not disputing that we need to reduce consumption. I am disputing the method of using a gas tax to achieve that goal because it will fail on a global scale. Any policy enacted must reduce global consumption period.

>The US doesn't have huge entitlement programs aside from Social Security and Medicare.

I was referring to Europe's entitlement programs. Robert said that the High gas taxes curb demand in Europe and that it works. But Robert plan is to refund gas tax money back, which is pointless since consumers will just use the refund to buy more gas or use it on something else that also uses fossil fuels. Robert is attempting to slap on a band aid to remove gov't waste on tax revunues. No matter how many band aids you slap on, you cannot fix the fundemental issues with a high gas tax policy.

>>How will a US tax affect consumption in China, India, and the Middle East?

>How does Chinese dependence on Middle East energy affect US energy security?  Aside from making it far more difficult to market foreign-built guzzlers to the US consumer, that is.

Why must everyone answer my questions with another off topic question? Please just answer the question or don't respond.  The point I am trying to drive home is that its pointless to conserve at home if some one else is just going to waste it anyway.

Slapping out a simple plan to cut US consumption isn't going to address the fundemental issues. Lets come up with a realistic plan that addresses total global consumption.

Thanks

 

I am disputing the method of using a gas tax to achieve that goal because it will fail on a global scale. Any policy enacted must reduce global consumption period.
And you think that cutting consumption in the nation which accounts for ~22% of the total wouldn't address the global issue?

Cutting US consumption would also address the balance of trade and a bunch of other things.  If there were fewer petrodollars out there, more of the money going to oil producers would be other currencies.  This would cut the value of those currencies (like the yuan) and reduce the amount of oil that they'd buy.

There is also the issue of economic vulnerability.  Right now the US can't do anything which would substantially affect the world supply of oil because we'd suffer the most.  But if that weren't true, China (as the imperialist force in Asia at the moment) would have to cut oil dependence or leave the US able to squeeze Beijing into submission just by fiddling with the taps somehow (say, by helping some Shiites bomb pipelines in S. Arabia and starting something with Iran).

Why must everyone answer my questions with another off topic question?
It is as on-topic as your constant changing of definitions and shifting of goalposts is.
The point I am trying to drive home is that its pointless to conserve at home if some one else is just going to waste it anyway.
Right now I am lighting my whole place with two CF lamps (total consumption ~25 watts), editting on a flat-screen monitor (large savings over the CRT it replaced, and the next one will be even better) and driving about a mile to work.  The savings make me better off than the people who are wasteful.  Eventually, those people will be forced to change their habits and I'll be here as an example.
>And you think that cutting consumption in the nation which accounts for ~22% of the total wouldn't address the global issue?

No, it would not. China has the fastest growth in Oil consumpion. In 1997 China was a net exporter, by 2004 it was the second largest importer. China's Oil import growth was slowed because of lack of supply. If the supply constraint was removed (perhaps by declining US consumption), it would probably surpass US imports in less than a decade. China has 1.4 Billion people, all eager to share the american dream. Slightly behind China is India with about a billion people, also very eager to obtain the american lifestyle. In addition, both of these countries lack any regulation on consumption, nor are there any significant enviromental laws. Both also subsidize fuel prices below market prices into order to prevent excessive fuel prices from curbing economic growth.

>There is also the issue of economic vulnerability.  Right now the US can't do anything which would substantially affect the world supply of oil because we'd suffer the most.

The real vulnerability is declining access to oil in a oil dependant economy and society. Raising the interest rates would be effective in curbing global oil consumption.

Suffering will happen no matter what policies are inacted. Ideally, it would be far better to have some sort of semi-controlled landing instead of a straight vertical crash. The gas tax does nothing to affect the trajectory since it will not result in a global reduction in consumption.

> The savings make me better off than the people who are wasteful.  

Good, but you need to get the entire globe to do the same to make a difference. Using a Gas tax will never achive that goal. FWIW: Even with the minor changes you have made, you are still very much dependant on fossil fuels, and these changes will not make much of a difference. When Oil production declines in just a few years, you will still be facing the same problems as everyone else.

>It is as on-topic as your constant changing of definitions and shifting of goalposts is.

I noticed you still haven't answered the question. How about another go?

BTW: I haven't changed my definitions or shifted goalposts. When you or someone else had posted an off-topic statement, I have done my best to respond to it. The points that I have been driving from my original response to Robert's comment are:

  1. A gas tax will not reduce global oil consumption, only shift consumption to other parts of the world.

  2. Refunding gas tax money will not curb consumption since, consumers can just rotate the refund to purchase gas or other good and services that use corpus amounts of energy.

I can't make it any easier.
China has the fastest growth in Oil consumpion.
Okay, what do you want to do about it?  More to the point, what good does it do them?

Note that you could stem that trend by proper allocation of the tax receipts - see below.

The real vulnerability is declining access to oil in a oil dependant economy and society.
Oil is only a vulnerability if you continue to need it; the less the national economy depends on it (relative to others', e.g. China) the less it matters.  Further, the only way to change the current situation of vulnerability is to get the economy to move to something else.  Taxes and other negative preferences are the most efficient and effective method.
you need to get the entire globe to do the same to make a difference.
Not true.  You could allocate the fuel taxes to fill the SPR or other reserves; this takes oil away from other economies and also reduces carbon emissions.  Allocating taxes to fill reserves places costs upon those parts of the economy (and not just the US economy) which are dependent on oil and gives relative advantages to those parts which use other sources of energy or dispense with need altogether (through efficiency measures).

Taxing imports based on their embodied oil prevents the displacement of demand overseas.

A gas tax will not reduce global oil consumption, only shift consumption to other parts of the world.
You're assuming that the production of oil will continue at the same level regardless of net demand and price.  Given the cost of developing new fields, this assumption is highly questionable and probably wrong.
Refunding gas tax money will not curb consumption
Incentive or disincentive to consume is a function of marginal cost.  As the fuel tax with flat refund increases the marginal cost without any increase in disposable income across the spectrum, consumers will be rewarded for cutting their consumption and more will do so.  Those who favor goods and services with less embodied petroleum will have more disposable income than those who favor the opposite.  This builds a reward for cutting oil consumption.

What gets rewarded gets done.  Your assertion is not just baseless, it is the opposite of reality.

>>China has the fastest growth in Oil consumpion.
>Okay, what do you want to do about it?  More to the point, what good does it do them?

Raise Interest Rates. The US is still the worlds reserve currency. By raising rates in the US, it would force the entire world to do the same in order to keep capital from moving to nations with higher rates and to prevent domestic inflation.

Raise rates cuts wasteful consumption across everything, not just personal transport. It would force consumers to also purchase smaller homes (likely consume less energy) and purchases goods and services that they need, not what they want since they will no longer be able to afford to use debt to fuel their lifestyles. For instance, how many americans would be able to afford SUVs without loans.

On the flip side, higher interest rates also protect savings from inflation, while higher taxes promote inflation. It also forces business to become more efficient in using capital to expand their business. Higher rates will force business to spend money more wisely and not jump foolishly into developing or expanding their business into wasteful enterprises. Higher rates will also help protect existing pension plans by lowerer the risks associated with reaching for yieldreturn on investment. Today because the interest rates are so low, many pension plans have turned to very risky investments (hedge funds, etc). Finally, interest rates do not unfairly penalize low income families and those that live on a fixed income (retirees). These people usually don't have much credit anyways and usually only buy what they absolutely need. Inflation also affects these folk harshly since they generally lack the capacity to increase their income and  keep up with inflation.

>Not true.  You could allocate the fuel taxes to fill the SPR or other reserves; this takes oil away from other economies and also reduces carbon emissions.

This would have been a good idea if we could guarentee that the SPR was managed correctly. The issue with using the SPR is that the politicians in office can use it to influence elections. For instance dumping oil from the SPR to help them get re-elected. It is impossible to determine how this reserve will be used or wasted in the future. The SPR Oil reserves can be used just as unwisely as tax revenue.

>You're assuming that the production of oil will continue at the same level regardless of net demand and price.  Given the cost of developing new fields, this assumption is highly questionable and probably wrong.

Decliningn oil production (or declines in new production) is irrevelevant. The objective of any conservation effort is to husband remaining resources so that they last longer. At the minimum, we want to reduce demand below production. Ideally we want to end all wasteful consumption of fossil fuels globally, and use a the remaining reserves to migrate the infrastructure way from dependance on fossil fuels. If consumption in Asia is left unchecked, they will continue to expand another oil dependant infrastructure.

>Those who favor goods and services with less embodied petroleum will have more disposable income than those who favor the opposite.  This builds a reward for cutting oil consumption.

It doesn't work that way, because gas taxes penalizes low income families more than middle class and the wealthly who already live fairly frugally. Those that have money will simply use to refund to consume energy anyway. Even if you refunded tax money disapportionally by refunding the lower income families more than the wealthy. These people would simply use the extra income to purchase goods and services that use energy.

Consider this simplified scenero. Every day from now on a family puts away one dollar for every gallon of gasoline they purchase. At end of the year, the family can spend that money on what ever they wish. What would the average american family do with that money? Most likely they will use to purchase good or services that use energy. Maybe it will be used for a vacation to the bahamas, or to buy a new car, a wide screen tv (shipped from half way around the world) All of these purchase use considerable amounts of oil, and therefore a program that refunds gas tax money is not an affect method to create conservation. It does really matter where oil is consumpted in the form of gasoline, jet fuel, or plastics. Oil is a finite resource.

For a gas tax to cut consumption, control of the refunded money would need to be restricted to a set of good and services that disapportionally use less energy. This would be an extremely difficult objective to achive.

Raise Interest Rates. The US is still the worlds reserve currency.
Good, a concrete proposal.  That's far more cogent than I usually get.  But raising interest rates both increases the rate of increase of government debt, and it also damps down economic activity in general.

I don't see why economic activity in general is a problem.  Emission of fossil carbon in general, and use of petroleum in particular, is the problem.  Economic activity which displaces or replaces these things is to be encouraged, while a general increase in interest rates would oppose it.

Last, this would not necessarily affect China.  China's banks are government-controlled and are unlikely to move investment away from the mainland in response to the Fed.  The way to hurt China is to disadvantage inefficiently produced or subsidized goods via tariffs; China's are both.

higher interest rates also protect savings from inflation, while higher taxes promote inflation.
A tax shift is not a tax increase.
The objective of any conservation effort is to husband remaining resources so that they last longer.
Didn't you just complain that US conservation efforts would just shift consumption to e.g. China?

My purposes in conserving and replacing oil are to reduce GHG emissions, make the US less dependent on (and ultimately independent of) despotic regimes such as Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, and play to our relative advantages in non-fossil energy supplies and thus strengthen the USA compared to e.g. China.  There is no point in making oil last any longer than we need it.

Those who favor goods and services with less embodied petroleum will have more disposable income than those who favor the opposite.  This builds a reward for cutting oil consumption.

It doesn't work that way, because gas taxes penalizes low income families more than middle class and the wealthly who already live fairly frugally. Those that have money will simply use to refund to consume energy anyway.

So consider the following hypothetical example:
  • A $2/gallon petroleum tax is applied, which generates roughly $400 billion/year.  This is refunded as a deductible on Social Security taxes, averaging $2780 per wage-earner over the US's ~144 million workers.
  • Mr. and Mrs. Low Income, who both work and earn a combined $30,000/year, currently use 1180 gallons of motor fuel per year between them.  Their after-tax income increases by $5560 per year, offset by $2360 in fuel taxes and some increase in consumer costs for transport.
  • Mr. and Mrs. Low Income decide to replace one of their old vehicles with a new hybrid car, which cuts their fuel consumption to 550 gallons/year.  They get to enjoy a nice car and offset the payment with another $500/year in reduced fuel taxes.

Are you saying that nobody would do this?  Really?

You might also be right, that mostly the rich would buy the hybrids to save money.  But the rich eventually trade in the hybrids, which are purchased by poorer people like Mr. and Mrs. Low Income.  Either way the benefits of economy trickle down to the less-affluent, while they benefit from the tax offsets immediately.

Every day from now on a family puts away one dollar for every gallon of gasoline they purchase. At end of the year, the family can spend that money on what ever they wish. What would the average american family do with that money? Most likely they will use to purchase good or services that use energy.
And if they paid back into savings based on the embodied energy of what they bought, they'd be more likely to purchase less energy-intensive goods and services simply because they would be cheaper and yield more for their savings.
>But raising interest rates both increases the rate of increase of government debt, and it also damps down economic activity in general.

Increased interest rates would very likely have the opposite affect on gov't debt and spending. The increased interest would force congress to cut spending and get serious about debt reduction. As it stands because interest rates are low, the gov't has no issues with deficit spending and actually incourages them to go on using credit to finance wasteful spending. Low interest rates cause wasteful spending.

>I don't see why economic activity in general is a problem.  Emission of fossil carbon in general, and use of petroleum in particular, is the problem.  Economic activity which displaces or replaces these things is to be encouraged, while a general increase in interest rates would oppose it.

To be fair, there is very little economic activity that does not use fossil fuels. I believe we will see a fairly dramatic drop in oil and gas production soon. It very likely that two largest fields, Gharwar and Cantarell are about to go into terminal decline(probably sometime in 2007 or early 2008).

>Last, this would not necessarily affect China.  China's banks are government-controlled and are unlikely to move investment away from the mainland in response to the Fed.

US interest rates do affect China's economy. There is a lot of foriegn capital that has left the US and Europe because the interest rates were so low (hense the drop in the dollars value compared to other currencies). By raising US raises investors will move capital away from China (and Asia) because of the higher yields and implied lower financial risks. Chinas gov't controlled banks would be force to follow US rate hikes to prevent capital from moving to the US. China, Europe and the majority of major central banks usually adjust their rates when the US fed makes significant changes to US rates. For instance, when the US lowered its rates (down to 1% in 2004) the ECB (european Central bank) and the Chinese central bank both lower their own rates (although not to 1%). When the US began raising rates, both the ECB and Chinese raised their rates (although not as much as the US did). If Central banks do not raise rates and print money to maintain liquidity in their domestic market, it will lead to inflation cause a whole set of new economic problems.

>A tax shift is not a tax increase.

Taxing energy always leads to inflation. This is because businesses pass on their higher energy costs to consumers, which in turn demand higher wages to adjust to the higher costs. The cycle feeds on itself causing inflation.

>Didn't you just complain that US conservation efforts would just shift consumption to e.g. China?

A higher US interest rate would force the worlds Central banks to raise their rates resulting in decreased economic growth and reducing demand for fossil fuels. Higher rates would also promote businesses and consumers use energy more efficient and spend capital more wisely. ie smaller homes, cars, etc.

>A $2/gallon petroleum tax is applied, which generates roughly $400 billion/year.  This is refunded as a deductible on Social Security taxes, averaging $2780 per wage-earner over the US's ~144 million workers.

Social security surpluses are used by politicians as a "slush fund" to pay for programs that will help encumberments get re-elected. That last place you want higher tax revenue to end up is in entitlement program funds. ie politician X campaigns to raise entitlements using the extra revenue or use it to build a new highway to create local jobs, etc.

>Mr. and Mrs. Low Income, who both work and earn a combined $30,000/year, currently use 1180 gallons of motor fuel per year between them.  Their after-tax income increases by $5560 per year, offset by $2360 in fuel taxes and some increase in consumer costs for transport.

What ever money that is refunded to them can be used to consume fossil fuels. What ever increased tax revenues received by the gov't will be used for additional wasteful spending. Over a period of about 3 to 5 years, the gas tax will result in increased inflation (proportional to the increased tax rate), as businesses pass on higher energy costs to consumers and increased tax revenue coupled with poor gov't spending managent. Higher interest rates is by far a better choice.

>And if they paid back into savings based on the embodied energy of what they bought, they'd be more likely to purchase less energy-intensive goods and services simply because they would be cheaper and yield more for their savings.

They won't consider saving money if there is inflation. Why save money if its just going to be inflated away? However higher interest rates does persuade consumers to save. Higher interest rates causes lower inflation and increased yields on savings.

>My purposes in conserving and replacing oil are to reduce GHG emissions, make the US less dependent on (and ultimately independent of) despotic regimes such as Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, and play to our relative advantages in non-fossil energy supplies and thus strengthen the USA compared to e.g. China.  There is no point in making oil last any longer than we need it.

When Oil production collapses GH emissions will increase. This is because gov'ts, consumers, and business will turn to dirty fuels that produce far more GH emissions. They will increase us of fossil fuels and use renewable sources in non-renewable ways. For instance, in the Northeast, lots of consumers purchased wood stoves to help heat their homes. As oil and gas become expensive, the demand for wood to be used for fuel will soar, causing deforestation. Before the development of Oil and gas, much of the Eastern US was deforested from the demand for winter heating, and running equipment. When Oil and gas became accessable, cheap, and easier to use, the trees grew back.

Today, the US population is more than twice as large as it was during the begining of the 20th century when oil and gas began development. It wouldn't take very long to deforest the region again (we have better technology to harvest wood and more people that need fuel). This time around it won't just be the US destroying the local enviroment, it will happen all over the world, especially in Asia. I have now doubt that GH emissions will more than double once oil and gas become expensive.

Because I'm short on time (won't even be able to read much until Monday night) I'm only going to be able to address a few of your points:
there is very little economic activity that does not use fossil fuels.
Wind power uses very little compared to what it displaces.  There are also huge variations between activities which are net consumers.  Changing the balance of activities and investment from heavy consumers to light consumers or net producers is a positive step.
It very likely that two largest fields, Gharwar and Cantarell are about to go into terminal decline(probably sometime in 2007 or early 2008).
Cantarell has been in decline since last year.
Taxing energy always leads to inflation.
That's the point, to increase the price of oil-intensive goods and services.  Feeding the tax back as an addition to wages automatically increases purchasing power to compensate.  Goods and services which are less oil-intensive will increase their prices less or not at all, thus becoming more competitive, more attractive to consumers and tend to shoulder out oil in the marketplace.
Social security surpluses are used by politicians as a "slush fund" to pay for programs that will help encumberments get re-elected.
It can only do that if they're allowed to keep it.  A full refund of the tax as a rebate doesn't leave it in their hands.
What ever money that is refunded to them can be used to consume fossil fuels.
You keep repeating that, without ever acknowledging - or realizing - that the net effect on purchasing power is zero and that the increase in the marginal cost of oil and oil-consuming goods and services creates an incentive for all consumers to buy something else, and all producers to economize or replace oil in their businesses.

Tonight, I paid $2.499 for diesel.  Saving a gallon would leave me two and a half bucks to the good, or roughly 6 cents per mile the way I drive.  If diesel cost $4.499, it would be a lot more attractive to spend time closer to home and drive slower when heading elsewhere.  It would make the closer destinations relatively more attractive.

They won't consider saving money if there is inflation.
The same can be said for high interest rates.  If you can get a 7% return on investment by insulating your house, but a 10% return on a bond, most people will put their money in the bond.  2% interest makes insulation more attractive than bonds, especially because the insulation is a hedge against inflation in energy supplies.
When Oil production collapses GH emissions will increase.
Doesn't this mean that it is REALLY important to get the pro-efficiency, pro-wind, pro-solar, anti-GHG regime into place now?  If we don't get the R&D and industrial investment moving that way pronto, it may be too late.
>Wind power uses very little compared to what it displaces.  There are also huge variations between activities which are net consumers.  Changing the balance of activities and investment from heavy consumers to light consumers or net producers is a positive step.

Then simply provide special low interest rates on loans that promote the construction of energy efficiency systems and sustainable enegry. What ever incentives work with tax breaks would work equally or better with special low interest rates. If one is going to go into debt in order to save money, you can bet your bottom dollar they will make every effort that it pays off. This is not so with a tax incentive, since they can come out ahead even if it doesn't save the money.

>Cantarell has been in decline since last year.

The key word is "terminal" decline. I believe production from these fields will drop below 50% of current production probably either next year or in early 2008. The water cut is rising rapidly and neither producer is willing to cut production in order prevent billions of barrels from slipping by (never to be recovered). They are literately sacrificing billions of barrels just to maximumize production.

>Goods and services which are less oil-intensive will increase their prices less or not at all, thus becoming more competitive, more attractive to consumers and tend to shoulder out oil in the marketplace.

It doesn't work that way. If inflation gets a hold in the economy, people just go on consuming their usual way. If it gets real bad they will increase their wasteful spending habits. For instance, during the 1970's, a period of stagflation, there was no effort made by consumers to conserve, nor was there any sigificant effort to build more fuel efficient vehicles. It wasn't until interest rates rose significantly during the end of the 1970's that the nation took interest in efficiency. When the interest rates rose, the auto industry was forces to produce smaller cars because people could no longer afford to purchase large vehicles.

>The same can be said for high interest rates.  If you can get a 7% return on investment by insulating your house, but a 10% return on a bond, most people will put their money in the bond.

Not really, If interest rates are high, consumers do everything to cut costs. For instance, they use lower wattage light bulbs, turn down the thermistat, use fans instead of AC, etc. If installing insulation saves money they will do that too. What your missing is that majority of US consumers have little savings and a lot of debt. As interest rates rise debt become painful, and they act to cut costs so they can pay down their debt. They also can't afford to take on more debt to continue their wasteful spending lifestyles.

>Doesn't this mean that it is REALLY important to get the pro-efficiency, pro-wind, pro-solar, anti-GHG regime into place now?  If we don't get the R&D and industrial investment moving that way pronto, it may be too late.

To be honest its already to late to prevent severe hardships. I believe we only have a few of years left before oil and natural gas shortages begin. There simply isn't enough time make a transistion now. The way gov't works (special commitees, feasibilty study, yada, yada) it will take them a decade before any serious contruction effort begins anyway. Then consider NIMBY and all the  resistanct change by the public. Look what happen to the wind farm project off the coast of Massachusetts.

Only investing in wind is feasible. Solar is not practical because of a number of factors. For instance the manufacture of solar panels uses lots of energy, lots of water, can creates large amounts of chemical wastes. If you include all of the associated costs (mining, processing, clean up (toxic wastes) solar panels have a negative EROI. Although Wind does have an issue since it can only produce electricity when the wind blows, but can be offset using man made lakes than can used excess wind to fill and be drained through hydro-turbines when the wind isn't blowing enough.

The real issue is one of transportion fuels and the our massive economic dependance on petro chemicals, fertializers, pesticides, plastics, etc. These can't be replaced with electricity. Its also not practical to heat tens of millions of building using electric heat.

FWIW: I don't see america or the rest of the world making any serious investment in replacing fossil fuels until we experience a severe energy crisis. There are probably less then a dozen politicans activity speaking about peak oil in the US. The rest are either looking to pass laws to develop the remaining reserves or to go after the oil companies. Neither of which will make the slightest difference in the long term.

In my opinion, your best option is not wait for gov't action, but start work on your own preprations as soon as possible. Ideally you want to avoid living in urban centers and become as self sufficent as you can. If your holding out for some national effort, you will very likely be disappointed, plus you'll be left up a smelly creek with out a paddle and a boat when the crisis begins.

Best of Luck to you.

Then simply provide special low interest rates on loans that promote the construction of energy efficiency systems and sustainable enegry. What ever incentives work with tax breaks would work equally or better with special low interest rates.
That would produce the precise corruption you claim to be against.  Preferences would be given, not to the most efficient or effective responses, but the ones with the most powerful backers.

Certain business models might be a highly effective way of reducing petroleum use and GHG emissions, but how do you aim loan incentives at a business model?  Taxes do this quite effectively, as the business in tax shelters proves.

Worse:  if a new and more effective scheme was developed after the passage of such a program and wasn't included under its terms, it might never get any investment because it would require changing the law and going against entrenched interests already profiting from the flow of money.

Worse yet:  no system of subsidies is going to reward people who just stop doing something fuel-consumptive.  Taxes do that implicitly.

Last:  it's mighty ironic to read a proposal for subsidized loans from someone who is virulently opposed to gas taxes.  Just where do you think the government would get the money for subsidies, bake sales?

If inflation gets a hold in the economy, people just go on consuming their usual way. If it gets real bad they will increase their wasteful spending habits.
That must be why American's consumption of gasoline rose during the period of inflation and afterward.

Oh, wait.  It fell from 1978 to 1983.  It was only when Reagan's deficit spending got going (and Carter's energy-efficiency programs had been dismantled and discredited) that gas consumption took off again.

If interest rates are high, consumers do everything to cut costs.
Hogwash.  If interest rates are high, capital expenditures get pushed out by consumption.  At a high enough interest rate, an incandescent bulb is a better investment than a compact fluorescent; you pay for the lamp in advance, but electricity is purchased with discounted future money.
To be honest its already to late to prevent severe hardships.
Yeah, but what does that have to do with the most effective response?  Nothing.
The way gov't works (special commitees, feasibilty study, yada, yada) it will take them a decade before any serious contruction effort begins anyway.
Then why does all your thinking revolve around GOVERNMENT subsidies and the like, rather than private enterprise working on minimizing oil/GHG taxes (and thus oil/GHG problems)?  It's like you WANT failure.
The real issue is one of transportion fuels and the our massive economic dependance on petro chemicals, fertializers, pesticides, plastics, etc.
Transportation fuels are the only one of importance.  The rest are consumed to the tune of a few tens of pounds per capita per year, and could easily be made from biomass.
These can't be replaced with electricity. Its also not practical to heat tens of millions of building using electric heat.
The people living in buildings with electric heat would beg to differ with you.  I'm living in one now.

I wish you'd get your facts straight.  It's like you've got these ideological blinders on, and refuse to compare the bogus map you've been given against the landscape right before your eyes.

>Worse yet:  no system of subsidies is going to reward people who just stop doing something fuel-consumptive.  Taxes do that implicitly.

I was comparing tax incentives vs interest rate incentatives.

>Oh, wait.  It fell from 1978 to 1983.  It was only when Reagan's deficit spending got going (and Carter's energy-efficiency programs had been dismantled and discredited) that gas consumption took off again.

In late 1977 the US Fed began raising interest rates. In 1978 the Fed rate was just under 8% and in 1982 it was above 12%. It wasn't until 1983 that rates began to fall. See the table using the link below:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/RELEASES/h15/data/Annual/H15_FF_O.txt

You can see from the next link below, that during the period of 1959 to 1983 the US fed Gasoline tax was flat.

http://www.artba.org/economics_research/reports/gas_tax_history.htm

So if we to create a chart plotting energy consumption taxes versus consumption it would have no net impact on consumption. In fact, as taxes on gasoline increased consumption increased. During periods of rising interest rates we can see decreased consumption.

>Hogwash.  If interest rates are high, capital expenditures get pushed out by consumption.  At a high enough interest rate, an incandescent bulb is a better investment than a compact fluorescent;

Nope, Sorry this is incorrect. As I tried to explain earlier, as rates rise debt becomes difficult to manage, businesses and consumers do what ever they can to reduce costs. The cost difference between a incandescent bulb isn't that much from a CCFL bulb and makes economy sense to switch. Athough some efficiency improvments would be off the table. For instance, homeowners aren't going to bulldoze their homes to replace them with new homes that are three times more energy efficient. But few if any americans would consider this an option that no matter what financial situation they are in.

Of course if you really want to make homes switch to CCFL or purchase more efficient devices, a better solution would be to ban production of less efficient designs (incandescents). For instance, we could ban the use of inacadence bulbs just like CFC were banned in the 1970s. This could be applied to a signficant number of applicances. Of course CCFL have their issues, since they contain heavy metals and other toxic pollutants that will eventually contaimate ground water.

>you pay for the lamp in advance, but electricity is purchased with discounted future money.

I see where your logic is coming from but it doesn't work that way. For starters, people don't plan ahead. The majority of people go about there daily business and at the end of the week see how much money is left for discreationary spending. Second, in a inflationary cycle incomes rise to offset declining purchasing power. As long as they have extra money left over and their expenses are lower than their income, they won't act to become more efficient. Why would they and they have absolutely no incentive to save money either. In a deflationary cycle consumers and business have no choice but to reduce costs. Cost reduction can come from reduced spending or improving efficiency, or a combination of both. Either way they cut costs, resulting in reduced consumption.

>The people living in buildings with electric heat would beg to differ with you.  I'm living in one now

The issue is that the grid cannot handle adding millions of buildings for electric heat. Only a small portion of buildings use electric heat today. By a far majority, buildings are heated using fossil fuels. Using electric heat is also very inefficient (like incadencant bulbs). There are huge losses converting thermal energy into electricity back to thermal energy. I suspect that when constriction of fossil fuels begins, a significant number of people will begin to start using portable and very inefficient electric heaters (especially in apartments). In this situation, the grid will become overloaded resulting in rolling blackouts during the winter. This of course will be very unpleasant.

>It's like you've got these ideological blinders on, and refuse to compare the bogus map you've been given against the landscape right before your eyes.

I have no ideological beliefs period. I am a realist and strong believer in practical solutions.

>Transportation fuels are the only one of importance.  The rest are consumed to the tune of a few tens of pounds per capita per year, and could easily be made from biomass.

You have grossly under estimated the use for fossil fuels as feedstock for petrochemicals. For approximately every food calorie you consume at least 10 heat calories are used to produce it. Every single product made uses oil or requires some other fossil fuel to produce it.  Second using biomass as a replacement would be converting a renewable resource into a non-renewable resource. When you take biomass off a field you deplete the soil of carbon not just nitrates. It takes a long time for nature to naturally enrich soil into carbon rich top soils. Farms usually only take the crop off but leave the stalk and roots on the ground so that most of the carbon remains. However, if you intend to pull the entire plant and burn in a gasifer for fuels or chemicals, it won't take very long to deplete the soil. This will also result increased GH emissions as soil carbon is remove from the land and put in the atmosphere as CO2.

I was comparing tax incentives vs interest rate incentatives.
You're not really doing it honestly.  There's only one kind of interest-rate incentive, but two kinds of tax "incentive":  one is a legislative discount on taxes for certain activities (same weakness as I noted above), and the other is just the ability to avoid taxes by cutting back or eliminating certain activities (like drinking liquor or burning gasoline).

Some people say that income taxes are a disincentive to work, as they amount to a tax on productivity.  I happen to agree, which is why I propose to tax (oil/carbon) instead.  If the power to tax is the power to destroy, let's destroy OPEC and our environmentally hazardous activities.  If it pays well enough, people will create alternatives and switch to them.

In late 1977 the US Fed began raising interest rates. In 1978 the Fed rate was just under 8% and in 1982 it was above 12%. It wasn't until 1983 that rates began to fall.
It was in 1985-86 that oil prices seriously fell.  It was also right about then that GDP started heading up again.  It's easy to see that these things are coupled; when less money started going to OPEC, more was available for investment and job creation.

The only way to uncouple those two is to disconnect the price of products from the price of crude oil.  If it's expensive to buy OPEC crude and foreign LNG (because of taxes), it makes it relatively cheaper and more attractive to use wind instead of NG-fired turbines, a hybrid instead of a guzzler.  Europe has shown the way; European consumption of motor fuel has remained roughly flat even while GDP has risen.  US GDP has risen faster, but our oil consumption has skyrocketed despite CAFE regulations and other half-measures.  It's well past time to bite the bullet.

As I tried to explain earlier, as rates rise debt becomes difficult to manage, businesses and consumers do what ever they can to reduce costs.
And any cost will do, while you want people to preferentially reduce their spending on fossil fuels.  You're not aiming at the target.
if you really want to make homes switch to CCFL or purchase more efficient devices, a better solution would be to ban production of less efficient designs (incandescents).
I wouldn't ban them, some purposes still require them.  I'd just tax them instead:  1¢/watt on bulbs, 10¢/watt on the rating of fixtures.  CFL's are already discounted down to the $1.50 range, so such a tax would make the retail prices roughly equal.
The issue is that the grid cannot handle adding millions of buildings for electric heat. Only a small portion of buildings use electric heat today. By a far majority, buildings are heated using fossil fuels. Using electric heat is also very inefficient (like incadencant bulbs).
You didn't specify resistance heat (there's a heat pump about 10 feet off my right elbow).

You do show that it's important to ask the right question.  I blogged on that a year and a half ago; I think you'll agree that the combination of cogeneration, wind and resistance heat could save a lot of fuel for very little money.

You have grossly under estimated the use for fossil fuels as feedstock for petrochemicals.
No, you have; only about 11% of US petroleum usage goes to "other", and that inclues aviation gas, kerosene, lubricants, naptha-type jet fuel, pentanes, petroleum coke, refinery gas, waxes and crude used directly as fuel.  The US and Canada only consumed about 110 billion pounds of resins in 2005.  That's roughly 330 pounds per capita.  Compared to US oil consumption of 7.3 billion barrels/year (almost 8000 lb/capita/year), that's chicken feed.

I'll let you do your own research on the contribution of surface-lying crop wastes to soil carbon, vs. roots left in situ with zero-till practices.  The answer I found some time ago is very different from what you're claiming.

>You didn't specify resistance heat (there's a heat pump about 10 feet off my right elbow).

The losses are acculative no matter the technology used. For instance, a fuel is used to heat a working fluid Such as water to a gas (liquid to gas losses), which drives a turbine (further losses) to drive a generator (further losses), that is passed through a transformer (further losses) that is transported a substaintial distance (further losses) to another substation transform (further losses) to your street (loses) to a another transformer (loess) to your heat pump. Before it even reaches your heat pump, more than half of energy is lost, therefore its terribly inefficient. A modern gas furnance can be better than 90% efficient. If you thinking of bring up the losses to transport fuel to the building, consider that there i also considerable losses transporting the fuel to the power plant.

The reason why the majority of buildings today use fossil fuels is because is more efficient and does burden the grid. You cannot simply ignore the gigiantic load using electricity for heating would create. The Grid is no capable of handling it. Lets also not forget about the load required to create domestic hot water too.

>It was in 1985-86 that oil prices seriously fell.  It was also right about then that GDP started heading up again.  It's easy to see that these things are coupled; when less money started going to OPEC, more was available for investment and job creation.

That was mostly geopolitical as KSA opened the spigots causing the price to fall. It has nothing to do with economics. By late 1990 after Iraq invaded Kuwait, the price rose.

I think I have done a good job of proving to you that interest rates are an effective tool to curb consumption and promote energy efficiency. Its not perfect but its effective and has the ability to curb global consumption which a domestic gas tax can't do.

>I wouldn't ban them, some purposes still require them.  I'd just tax them instead:  1¢/watt on bulbs, 10¢/watt on the rating of fixtures.  CFL's are already discounted down to the $1.50 range, so such a tax would make the retail prices roughly equal.

Sure, I was just pointing out a way a better way than a gas tax to get people to use more efficient products. Although banning would be better since its likely the taxes will be used wastefully, ie fund new road construction or entitlement spending. I see no reason to just ban them to simplify the issue, and give manufacture a grace period of a few years to make the adjustments.

>No, you have; only about 11% of US petroleum usage goes to "other", and that inclues aviation gas, kerosene, lubricants, naptha-type jet fuel, pentanes, petroleum coke, refinery gas, waxes and crude used directly as fuel.

That's only for Oil, you need to look at the "other" fossil fuel. The US consumes more btus in n. gas than it does in oil. N. Gas is also running out. Consumption of N. Gas by BTU was nearly double of oil consumption in 2003.

>US GDP has risen faster, but our oil consumption has skyrocketed despite CAFE regulations and other half-measures.  It's well past time to bite the bullet.

Cutting transportation fuels will help but it is not a solution. Any like I said energy taxes on the US does not prevent consumption growth in Asia. Managing interest rates are the only means at our disposal to curb global consumption. Any efforts less then curbing global consumption will be pointless.

Unfortunately it looks like a higher gas taxes are in our future, both parties are now seriously discussing increasing the gas tax. I think we will see some reduction in US consumption (not from the higher fuel costs) but from a pending recession, which will permit China and India to expand their consumption do to the drop in US consumption. China and India currently have major construction projects to add substaintally more refining capacity. The total global consumption will remain flat (plus or minus total global production). I suspect that whatever new taxes are added, they will not increase prices above the gasoline prices experienced this summer.

None of this is a migation program which is absolutely required. The US would need to invest between 5 and 10 trillion in replacment infrastructure, but the US gov't is affectively bankrupt (explained by both a Fed reserve governor and the US comptroller). We have no funds to pay for such a massive project. In a few short year millions of boomers will begin to retire and begin to drain what ever credit is still available. The politicians will do what ever the boomers want (more entitlements) in order to get elected and the will ignore the systematic risks until the system crashes.

You are either grossly ignorant or a liar.  You keep asserting "facts" which are completely false.  Example:
That's only for Oil, you need to look at the "other" fossil fuel. The US consumes more btus in n. gas than it does in oil. N. Gas is also running out. Consumption of N. Gas by BTU was nearly double of oil consumption in 2003.
In a word, bull.  Sayeth the EIA, US oil consumption in 2005 was 40.44 quads, while gas production and all imports under "other" came to about 23 quads.

This not the first time you've asserted something which is exactly opposite to fact.  I refuse to try to carry on a debate with a liar.  Goodbye.