415 comments on DrumBeat: September 21, 2006
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415 comments on DrumBeat: September 21, 2006
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Wrong! I can imagine thousands of things that have no affect on the price of oil. The question is whether supply and demand or speculators and hedge fund managers control the price of oil. Pay attention!
Are you taking up space on this list by just trying to be funny? Any damn fool knows we are not talking about oil spilled in the snow or sand. If you have some intelligence to add to this discussion please do so and stop posting nonsense.
The price of oil, all over the world moves together. If WTI spot price goes up, contracted oil from Saudi Arabia goes up as well. Check out world spot prices as compared to contract prices here.
Ron Patterson
As for price being influenced by anything you can imagine - prices are set by human beings. As a matter of fact, price itself is something that is imagined, looked at in the sense that price is a human construct, agreed to by those engaged in the transaction. For example, the money I use to pay for things every day does not say anything about the United States - and the price is not in dollars anyways. The fact that you imagine a factor to have nothing to do with price has absolutely nothing to do with two other people thinking it does - and if they are the ones buying and selling, your not being able to imagine what is influencing them is meaningless. To give a hint - look at how the Soviet Union used oil as a political tool.
As for the example of oil leaking - a bit obscure, but I decided to leave the explanation out. In Saudi Arabia, the infrastructure in place has been fairly simple to build and expand, and in that sense a barrel of oil in Saudi Arabia tends to have a production 'price' value which seems to be either in the penny or very low dollar range. On the other hand, the oil being produced in Alaska has extensive costs associated with it. In other words, what is the 'price' of a barrel of oil being leaked in the desert compared to the tundra? For the oil producer, that difference is measurable in terms of cost, as compared to price. This was a poorly done reference to the idea that the cost of producing oil keeps going up (in terms of infrastructure, for example), regardless of the price. Oil may be fungible, but the cost of production has a certain influence on how much the oil is worth, regardless of price.
Price is not an illusion, far from it, but price is not physical reality either. And I didn't even begin to touch upon EROEI - is it possible to even have a price for something which could be seen as negative - if it takes 5 units of X to produce 4 units of X, is price relevant? At some point, price capitulates in the face of reality - if you can imagine that. For example, how much does a passenger pigeon egg currently cost, or is price just a foolish perspective in terms of passenger pigeon eggs, from someone being anything but funny?
On inventories, the following points make the number not very meaningful:
- Now (9/06) the only reason US oil inventories are up are because of draw downs in the US SPR that haven't been replaced.
- As Days Forward Cover, current US inventories (minus SPR withdrawls is at the low range.
- Minimum US crude oil stocks for proper functioning of the system according to Matt Simmons are between 280 and 300M barrels - now we are "awash" with crude with 325M barrels, that only 1 to 3 days of supply before problems.
- Almost all countries in the world except the US (because we've drawn down and not replaced our SPR) have lower than average oil stocks in 2006.
- Drawdown in US SPR
http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverStream/Pages/pgDailyInventoryReportViewDOE_new.html Strategic Petroleum Reserve Net movement of 13.4M total from Sept 05 through Oct 06. Net US SPR drawdown of 11M barrels, net OECD donation of 2.4M barrels. No new fillings of US SPR ordered since Sept 05 and for foreseeable future.Very good info. Thanks.
Actually it is easy to get this idea -- the latest EIA weekly oil report released 9/20/06 begins with the title "How Low Can it Go?" and relies on both "technical" chart data (it is stated that the decline represents "the second-largest uninterrupted decline in the history of the survey (dating back to August 1990") and then also uses inventories as a reason why oil prices are dropping. A chart is very conspicuous that shows higher than average crude oil inventories (of course no mention of world oil inventories and the fact that we've withdrawn from the SPR). No other reasons are given for the price decline. see: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp
As near as I can figure it .. all the dynamic
forces in the market place are played out on
a daily basis and reflected in the then current
spot contract price .. All the industry players dealing
in the actual physical commodity price their "deals"
at some differential to that spot price ..
Triff ..
(Not necessarily quickly, though. I believe there's a big correction coming up, from the fact that the market has ignored that oil is finite and immensely hard to replace, but this underpricing has been going on for decades.)