335 comments on DrumBeat: September 30, 2006
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
335 comments on DrumBeat: September 30, 2006
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait til oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”
—Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
I think that hinges on the Indian situation being typical, world-wide. "We" might be in overshoot if "we" are all in the same boat as those Indians, on water, etc.
Any posters from the Canadian Northeast here today, what's your perspective?
No, I think if we had lots of oil, water would not be that big a problem. We could simply build a lot of desalination plants.
Given enough energy, we can solve just about any problem. But when it's energy that is the problem...it's bend over and pass the Vaseline time. (Oops...Vaseline's made of petroleum.)
Why not - the fusion future.
=========It's all about population!
Leanan, this might be true in theory, but it is really ridiculous to propose that we could desalinate enough water to replace the water currently used around the world for irrigation. We would need thousands of desal plants. The Yellow river is used, almost entirely for irrigation and for most of the year it never reaches the sea. Imagine building enough desal plants to replace the water in theYellow River. Or the Colorado River, all the hundreds of rivers and aquifers around the world that are going dry because too much water is being pumped out.
The Soviets diverted the rivers feeding the Aral Sea to grow cotton. Now the Aral Sea is almost dry. Do you suppose that if we had enough oil we could just build enough desal plants and fill it up again? And the same for Lake Chad and all the other lakes and rivers of the world that are drying up because of massive irrigation.
I haven't done the math but I would bet that if we wished to replace all the world's irrigation water with desalinated water, we would need at least one hundred times as much oil as we have now. And imagine what that would do to global warming, burning one hundred times the oil we do now.
Ron Patterson
Try desalinating the Dust Bowl. That should make it clear enough.
Unlimited energy can theoretically solve almost all problems. But one remains: the very use of that energy, and the pollution -or waste- it produces. That could only be solved by using more energy, which would lead to more waste, which could only be solved by using more energy, which... (copy and paste).
Unlimited energy (when used) equals unlimited waste.
River diversion, that very term brings up China. The most megalomanic project in the history of mankind is underway as we speak, digging 1000's of miles of canals and tunnels to divert water from the relatively wet south to the very dry and desertifying north.
Mao started talking about it 50 years ago, and it will take another 50 to complete.
One problem that is not part of the planning process: melting glaciers. By the time the project is finished, 50 years from now, there will be hardly any water left, the southern rivers are fed by the Himalaya's.
It'll be a fitting end for Peak Stupidity.
In a word...yes.
I'm not saying it would be desirable, mind.
Do the math Leanan you might have some surprises.
In other words, though your statement "Given enough energy, we can solve just about any problem" holds in principle, there are HUGE AMOUNTS of "energy equivalent" consumption in many, many natural ressources we squander mindlessly.
Releasing water on the ground to artifically produce wetlands for waterfowl.
Quit draining wetlands for humans to have more sprawl space and pretend they are living the rural lifestyle.
Stop irrigating crop land when normal rainfall is insufficient and live on what we can actually produce, even though this means a lot of the rest of the world must learn to better shepherd their resources as well, in other words quit trying to be the worlds saviour and just live with what we got.
Turn off the 'green revolution'.
Stop washing streets, let the residents sweep them off.
Ice hockey? Forget it.
Swimming pools in everymans backyard? Ignorant.
Sprinkling desert land in Arizona to grow grass? Fools.
Huge water fountains in Vegas? Screw the gamblers. Let them eat dust.
The list can go on and on and on. Just as long as human stupidity can go on and on and on. Live within the parameters or die off. Thats what it is coming down to.
Why does India need all that water? Could all our ignorant offshoring of our once domestic jobs have anything to do with it?
Two years ago this would have been utter nonsense. Today I submit it makes sense. You can't legislate people's lifestyle so nature is going to do take over that job for us.
I strongly disagree on the basis that local conditions are so different. Continents are separated by big swathes of water called oceans which have a tendancy to keep eco-systems, people, cultures, resources apart. I cannot even believe I am debating this.
Sure if you fully understand controll theory as applied to climate/geology and know your boundaries and 879,057,423 variables then yes you could treat earth as one boat.
Marco.
Marco
I've read that the Great Lakes are already approaching their lowest levels since measurements began. And anytime I've gone fishing with my dad we have to take a guide with us to determine if the fish we catch are safe to eat or have too much mercury for human consumption.
So even here, in a province with something like a half million freshwater lakes, it's not like the place is untouched either.
I just worry if a water trade is seriously developed with the US, because as I understand it according to Article 6 of NAFTA it would then become a trading commodity that we could not legally unilaterally stop selling you. Sort of like the situation we're in where we have to sell you our natural gas.
In any case, even with all this water, is the world supposed to all move to Canada???
The generalization builds the fear ... but does it build the action?
BTW, I'll take my shower this morning with a low flow head, I sure hope everyone mad at me here is doing the same:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/10/eco-showerhead.php
No, I know what you're saying, but if the question is potable fresh water, then certainly contamination factors into the equation as well. There's plenty of fresh water in standing pools around the tar sands too, but I sure as hell wouldn't drink it!
I am now visualizing millions of people addicted to the gratification of sticking lowflow heads up their asses. Please don't do that.
Electricity for that gentleman to run his water pump, and for industrial ag. in general, comes from coal-fired power plants. And where do those fishes get their mercury contamination? The steady rain, planet-wide, of mercury from those same power plants.
I noticed yesterday, in the news, that India's economy is growing at an astounding rate.
Separating 'challenges' into many discrete parts may lead to an overwhelming seeming number of challenges facing us - no? We all see the world differently, but for me, it's pretty simple that we're over-consuming, over-populating, and lack humility.
Scaling back (aka powerdown, simplification, whatever) will solve many problems simultaneously. Many tech fixes of individual problems just cause two more problems somewhere else.
Go Humans!!