the united states seems to be prepareing for a air attack on iran.
they have moved both c-130's aka spooky's that are flying gun ships to iraq bases and they have deployed the uss ronald regan to the gulf.
Source?

Usually I dismiss the "US suicidal in Iran" scenario, but this thing sounds scary. You woke up the paranoid part of me and now I start to wonder why indeed everybody is striving to build inventories in this country... we'll see.

A gunship against insurgents planting mines on roads and blowing up marketplaces? Are they kidding?


LevinK,

It is obviously NOT there for roadside bombers.

Remember last fall when Iran ordered three of their divisions to be ready to move into Iraq in the event of an American attack on Iran. They may decide not to that in the event of an American attack, but the military wants that asset.

So you take the war with Iran as granted? We'd all better head for the mountains then.

The AC-130 against insurgents was not my statement:

The U.S. Air Force has begun moving heavily armed AC-130 airplanes -- the lethal "flying gunships" of the Vietnam War -- to a base in Iraq as commanders search for new tools to counter the Iraqi resistance
LevinK,

No, I do not take war with Iran as inevitable, even if we think it will only be for 2-3 days. I think the USA will stand down and Israel will do the bombing out of a sense of self-preservation, but the repercussions will spill over into cutting off Persian Gulf oil for a period of time.

But we want those big planes there as insurance.

The USA military has a lot of power, even if we do not talk about Nukes, though France does.

If you follow military deployments, the Navy has gone from under 70% "under way" or "deployed" to 86% deployed and underway in the last month and a half. And most of those have been to/around the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. You can follow Navy deployment information weekly, if you wish.
This is sabre rattling. If these assets were really going to attack Iran we would know not about it.
There is the probability that these are replacements for units and ships nearing the end of a duty cycle. But then I have too often overestimated the intelligence of Dubya.
You can't hide large scale deployments in an open society. It cannot be done. You can confuse people by making it appear they might be going somewhere else, but everyone knows when a full aircraft carrier of seamen are gone from their home port so there is no point in trying to pretend that they are not deployed. As someone who has followed deployments since I left the military 20+ years ago, I disagree completely with your assertion that we would not know about it. We would indeed know about it, just as public deployment information made the Iraq invasion obvious as well as the first Gulf war. The only excuse for not knowing about it is simply failing to observe the publicly available information. This neither tells us if Bush will attack Iran or not but those forces are deployed.

If you had watched the "underway" list over the last 45 days you would realize that there are now 3 different complete Marine expeditionary groups in the Persian Gulf region. That page only lists the "underway" assets and once they arrive "on station" the name of the ship or other asset is removed from the page. However, I've watched three complete Marine expeditionary groups go to the Persian Gulf and not return yet.

Do I think this is saber rattling? Yes, but those forces are real, in place, and have the firepower to at least start something even if they can't finish it.

Remember the Mongol hordes...  Forecasting a pending invasion of a town worked in their favor.  It was a great pyschological warfare tool.
After the map and post that was published here earlier this week and now the news on the movement on C-130's, and the build-up in oil stocks, I am starting to beleive that an "incursion" into western Iran is inevitable if not already under way.  There was a piece on NPR last night about cross border raids by Special Forces but I missed most of it due to a late evening client call.  

Those of us with memories of the 1960's and 1970's can only mutter "Laos" and "Cambodia," and I firmly believe that Rummy and Uncle Dick desperately want to rewrite the lesson plans from that era.  But the kicker here lies in the oil shock of 1979-1980 and the resulting damage to the U.S. economy that resulted, in part, in Chairman Volcker monetary policy.  The incrredible damge to the world economy that results from this reckless may be beyond calculation, and range from economically fatal disruption to the "carry-trade" in currency and bond markets, to full escaltion of Middle-Eastern War the U.S. has not chance of quieting.

I am suffering from delusional paranoia - before the cocktail hour, or is the Bush/Cheney effort to rewrite 20th Century history making its last stand?

No, I doubt even the more looney neocons are that mad. There will be no US invasion of Iran. If GW looked seriously like doing it I would expect Cheney to shoot him (that's an almost serious comment, BTW).

I do not rule out Israeli or US air strikes against presumed Iranian nuclear resources but even that is quite unlikely (maximum risk from June onwards, probability < 25% this year IMO).

My assessment would change if, say, Venezuela stopped oil exports to US but Hugo is wise enough to know that card is best in sleeve than on table.

Let's hope you are right. Heretofore, I have assumed that this was a Grand Game of Chicken, with the Iranians playing their hand better than the Cheney Neo-Cons. {I don't suppose Sec'y Rice plans on any VP hunting trips.}
What has typified this sad and latest version of the "great game" is the total ineptness of the US player (unless its objectives are somewhat different than seem in its country's interest and would be held logical) when compared with all other potential players. I blame: God, America, humans, in that order ;)

GW might like to play chicken but the other players are too smart to let him play that until they want him to, and they have all sorts of plans in place in case he tries to go early for that strategy. Ooops, I've probably got you all worried again now.

I don't think hunting lawyers etc fits with Condi's philosophy and recreational habits. What are her odds on being the next US president (I'm thinking before the next normal term) I might be interested in better than 10/1 if available?

If these events are leading to an attack on Iran, then you can be sure that all "players" are in agreement.  I was surprised when some strike on Iran didn't happen in  June of last year, but now with France, GB, et al on board, it looks somewhat more certain.  A friend of mine thinks the likelihood of an attack is 30% before GWB leaves office.  I think it is much higher.  I don't know how much the IOB is a factor, but if we attack sooner rather than later, my guess is that it was a big factor.
Um, oil inventories are up due to warmest weather in history, which led to lack of heating oil use and natural gas use, which led to large build up of stocks. Nothing war related at all.
Yeah, those evil neocon phantasms in peoples heads can play tricks with reality... maybe Bush tried to save the trouble but found We were not listening ... again.  Like spoiled children whose mommy might take away candy.

"What people need to hear loud and clear is that we're running out of energy in America."
--George W. Bush, May 2001

He tried, the titbabies cried, and IF he tried hared the titbabies would have accused him of making it all up for Big oil buddies etc.

People will ALWAYS find evidence to support their pet fantasy.

The AC-130s could equally be intended for counter insurgency meaures within Iraq. I see nothing indicative of an imminent offensive of any military kind against Iran.
since when did the insurgency start attacking in the numbers needed to justify the use of the ac-130?
when did they aquire armored vehicals?
a fully loaded ac-130 can level about a city block with it's firepower, that seems a little overkill for fighting insurgents planting ied's?
Seems the US has used AC-130's in Iraq previously, in 2004 in Fallujah

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=89c900bb-6917-48f2-be68-8cdeec0d02a6&k= 6435

Very, very good point.  BUT they only seem to send theom WHEN they anticipate using them for some out-of-the-ordinary purpose.

That could simply be like you say, for controling insurgents in Iraq (curb break-out of civil war).  OR it could be "just in case" too for extra-curriculars for later (or sooner than expected even ???).

But, we just git to sit and watch.  Got Popcorn?

i doubt the simple presence of the ac-130's in iraq would stop a civil war, thats un-avoidable at this point.
OK, what is a better indicator of coming action is when the Stealth Bomber and Fighters fly over my house as they did when we attacked Baghdad.  I'm in their flight path when they go west and take off for them is less than 100 miles away.  They usually don't roll these out unless they are serious due to the price tag to build and fly.

On a sidenote:

sendoilplease, you've gone from sounding like Charles Manson to almost human...what gives?

I quit taking "their" meds and went back to my Mother's meds -lol.  Honestly.

We all have our inner Mansons - just admit it and control it.  Sanity is all relative.  I know from terribly good experinces now.

I think you are right too - but the AC-130s rollin' down the strip with/out airborne daddies can still take a very long trip and deal a nasty blow... part of the salvage effort is my guess.

But I agree with you  - the gig is probably really up this timezUp.

I have something I wish to say about what I perceive to be a reasonable Iranian perspective, here's as good as anywhere:

Iranians are a peaceful people and country. We have not aggressed against any other country in modern times. When we were attacked by Iraq we fought back and defeated them. The US supported the aggressor in that war.

We have abided by all aspects of the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). We seek to develop nuclear power generation for the time when our oil and gas resources decline or are better used otherwise. Nothing we have done has been in contravention of the NPT, nothing we plan to do is in contravention of the NPT. We wish to develop our own skills and ability to enrich nuclear fuel for our own reactors, we do not wish to be reliant on other countries for this.

Why are we criticized, villified and attacked for our reasonable position?

We are surrounded by countries with nuclear weapons: Russia, Pakistan, Israel, India, US and UK occupying forces in Iraq. All we hear are threats from many of these countries. We wish to live in peace with our neighbours. We ask that we are allowed to develop our own peaceful nuclear facilities without threats of economic and military violence. We call on all countries to decommission their nuclear weapons, as the NPT intends and states.

If these threats against Iran continue and, in particular, if they escalate into any form of action against Iran, we will retaliate. Ultimately we may be forced to withdraw from the NPT (as Israel, Pakistan and India) and develop our own nuclear deterrence, if nuclear powers continue to threaten us and attempt to manipulate the UN Security Council against us. That is not our wish nor our intent.

I'm an American, and I've always liked the Iranians.

That said, there are people in the U.S. government who have Iran and its oil in their sights.

Borrow an ICBM from the Russians and point it directly at Tel Aviv. That will put a quick end to the imperial visions of the Neocons. It will be checkmate, game over.

I don't think you fully grasp the paranoia that rules Israel (and perhaps rightly so since their enemies want them dead and butchered and then pushed into the sea). Borrow an ICBM? Israel would try to take it out. Launch it at Tel Aviv? Israel would launch everything it has on warning in retaliation, destroying multiple Arab cities throughout the entire Middle East.

So don't be absurd. At this point putting an ICBM in Iran's hands could trigger WWIII even if Iran itself did nothing threatening first aside from simply possessing it.

The only longterm solution here is a peaceful resolution between Israel and its neighbors but so long as some neighbors (particularly Iran!!!!) continue funding groups like Hamas and taking the position that Israel should be destroyed, there can never ever be peace in that region.

The idea of the ICBM would be not to use it, but to cool down the aggression using the MAD strategy.

MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) kept the U.S. from invading the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Union from invading Western Europe. It has a proven track record.

well yes it worked in the past but do you honestly think it will work now?
At a guess, there are some people in high places who were very annoyed by the 1979 revolution. Some of those people are still calling the shots.

The nuclear issue is one excuse for military action, the backup seems to be the allegations of IED manufacture and interference in Iraq.

As in the Downing Street Memos ( www.downingstreetmemo.com ), the facts are being fixed around the policy.

How's that for cynical?

I've also liked the Iranians I've ever met, and I'll bet that unique among those on this site I can sing the Iranian national anthem in Farsi. Unfortunately, it is the wrong anthem, from about forty years ago, taught to me by one of my Persian sailing students. BTW, Farsi is a lovely musical language, much easier than Japanese to learn, and were I advising young people on which languages to pick up, Farsi would be near the head of the list.

However, having said all that, being a base for terrorist mullahs and their evil talk and actions, well that is what is ultimately making Iran #1 on the list of countries for power-down. We'll at some point tip our friends "the Rooskies" to bug out of Bushy and then put the country quite literally into the dark ages. My guess is that neither the U.S. nor Israel wants to kill large numbers of Russians, and so my query is, when are those guys going to go home? Russians are not dumb; my guess is they have their bags packed.

I agree with you. I am really worried about the demonisation of Iran in most of the Western media. The US corporate media is clearly very anti-Iranian, for reasons one can't really go into here.

I recon Iran will be attacked and they'll try regime change. I really hope I'm wrong, but the signals coming out of the White House are very discouraging. I just hope the attack is relatively modest and the results are containable. Iran should fight a defensive war and under no circumstances give the Bush administration any excuse to use nuclear weapons. Personally I think they would really like to use a few nukes on Iran. This would have an enormous symbolic and psychological "value" in the region as a whole. In a way nuclear weapons have lost their "value" because no one really believes they can be used, especially against a non-nuclear enemy. This is, of course very speculative, but I think it's important to remember that both Britain and the United States did threaten Iraq with a limited nuclear strike in the run-up to the invasion. So it's not that far out. The Romans also kept discipline in their Empire by ruthless use of military to punish provinces that were in revolt, by levelling towns and cities and selling whole populations in slavery. I suppose ultra violence is part of the logic of Empire.

I think you're right about the nukes, but I have assumed that they would use Nukes in the bunker busters and conventional every where else.  Not that a daisy cutter is less formidable than a nuke!  I don't believe there will be any talk of the people throwing flowers at our feet or "democratization"... at least not at first.  I think our first goal will be to succeed quickly.  I also think that the final war signals will be when NATO moves troops into the area, because I don't think a quick success can be had without some level of ground troop involvement.
I lived in Iran for six months before the Shah left. I found it a wonderful country then.

Personally, I see Iran's recently elected president as fully representing the not-elected mullahs.  The combination of stating that Israelis should be moved to Europe and/or Israel should be destroyed, with a program intended to develop nukes, is not acceptable to Israel. The US sees Israel as the only democratic state in the region - notwithstanding the recent free elections in the west bank - and is anyway committed to Israel's defense, both by history and us politics. Meanwhile, the sitting us president is the most belligerant we have ever had and he previously defined Iran as an axis of evil charter member. And, this president has little fear of Iran's main weapon, withholding its oil, because the resulting rise in oil prices will be quietly welcomed by his oil patch backers. Pretty explosive mixture.

As an aside, while some of Iran's neighbors do have nukes, none of them have threatened to destroy another country, and anyway the persian gulf is so far a nuclear free zone. None of Iran's Sunni arab neighbors would like to see the Shia Persians with nukes. If Iran's nuclear facilities were bombed, there would be quiet celebrations throughout the region, save only, perhaps, the Shias in southern Iraq.

That may be so, but India and China have fought one war, India and Pakistan have fought 3 wars ( and one near-as-dammit war after the nukes came out of the bag ). The only war that the Iranians have fought was the one which started when Saddam Hussein invaded them - in an idiotic quest to steal Iran's oil.

Whilst no-one wants to see Iran with nukes it seems that no one who counts ( ie the US ) is prepared to actually stump up the strategic deal which would avert the possibility. Why is that, I wonder?

Iondanium -

There is a simple one-word answer for you rhetorical question: ISRAEL.

Agric,

This has nothing to do with Iranians either in or outside of Iran. California, where I live, has, I think, the largest number of Iranians living here outside of Iran.

This is about their government. Remember, just for starts, it has four parts. The executive, the judicial, and the parliament AND the theocratic. The leader of Iran is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-KHAMENEI who is head of state, the President serves him.

  1. a few weeks back the Shites of Iran were killing Sufi's (the whirling dervishes of old) in the holy city of Qom.
  2. God forbid you be openly of the bahai faith in Iran. Death sentence.
  3. the government as been trying to make the 22-24% population that are Azeri's into Persians - kind of what the Turks were trying to do with the Kurds all through the 70's and 80's.
  4. You can not run for Parliament unless you are cleared by the clergy. I'd like to see that tried in the USA or EU.
  5. and for foreign policy, where do we want to go? Eliminate Israel, by nuclear fire if need be? Or just sanction suicide bombers to kill women and children?
  6. and look at the Iranian Govt. close allies. Those sterling nations Syria and North Korea.
  7. If Iran goes nuclear, than who is next? SA? Turkey has been dusting off their nuclear plans from the Cold War of late.

It is understandable why they want to go nuclear, but it is a bad idea. And if it was just to have civilian energy, they could have gone with the Russian plan. This is not about civilian energy, this is about weapons.

There are some good reasons why the USA and Israel do not want Iran to have nuclear weapons!  

Can't run for parlament unless cleared by the clergy.  Sounds like the GOP.
Although for some reason, being Christian or Jewish is no impediment for being a member of the Iranian parliament.
<< This is not about civilian energy, this is about weapons. >>

I would agree.  It has been shown that nuclear as an energy source is questionable, because the risks are high from terrorism, and the production cost are often higher than stated, and no one has factored in the cost of safeguarding the nuclear waste for the thousands of year that is required.

In my opinion, nuclear power with fission is a boondoggle, and its only worth, is the production of weapons, or of military power supplies where cost is not a factor.

Did you ever wonder why the only aircraft carrier sent to the Persion Gulf was conventional... not nuclear?

BaSe,

The Ronald Reagan CV is in the Persian Gulf right now and it is nuclear. We have had a bunch in there lots of times. . . .

What scares me is if we get one sunk or even heavily damaged, which is possible. Buy defense stocks the day that happens.

The advantage of nuclear power is that is essentially does not generate any GHG of any major import, while coal, NG, oil, does.

As a side note, Jack, Turkey may not need to develop nuclear weapons on its own. According to reports, Turkey has been given 90 each thermonuclear B61 bunker buster bombs, which are stored at the Incirlik air base. (Note that, the report is correct, the US has apparently also armed Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany with the same weapons.)
Oops! Typo! It should say "if the report is correct".
GreyZone,

I am not sure, but I think you are talking about the Cold War cooperation between NATO nations to allow the USA to house and have ready Nukes in case the USSR came over the Iron Curtain. It is not quite the same thing as "having." Some of this was for politics.

No, these weapon distributions have taken place since Bush took office. I think the USSR was gone a wee bit before that. ;)
If we attack Iran by air, the only objective could be destruction of nuclear facilities. The U.S. army, in place or newly inserted into the area, is not strong enough to attack and hold the Iranian oil fields. However, it doesn't matter what the U.S. objectives are in attacking Iran because, once the attack is started there will be a military reaction from Iran's 350,000 man army, and from partisan/guerilla units from various Muslim factions, and possible military actions from other Muslim countries in the Middle East. If the crazies in Washington can't figure this out, and don't step back as a consequence, we are headed for a major conflagraton. Personally, I think it is going to happen. Bush and his bunch are very dangerous, and I think we are about to find out just how dangerous.