This is not correct.  Just looking at the water angle, it takes 2500 - 4000 gallons of water to create 1 pound of beef.

Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons

With that same water you could irrigate the "land too dry to grow people food" and grow 10 times as much, calorie wise, in the form of vegetables, fruits and grains.

Animals are pretty much the worst way to "store energy", over 90% of the caloric value is lost as grains are turned into meat.

The beef industry says it's only 450 gallons, or something like that.  I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.  And a lot of that water is to grow corn.  If we don't feed them corn, that water use goes away.

Irrigation takes a lot of energy.  The point of sustainable agriculture is to grow what grows naturally in your area, not to build more oil-powered irrigation systems.

Animals are pretty much the worst way to "store energy", over 90% of the caloric value is lost as grains are turned into meat.

OTOH, you don't have to feed them grain at all.  You can't eat grass.  The cow can.  

We are already using 56% of the water in the country to feed cattle in one form or another.

I'm just saying is that using meat to feed people is inefficient compared to using the same resources to grow vegetables, grains and fruits.

Whether or not it is possible to convert over all cattle ranching activities into ordinary farms is another question.

It depends on the climate.  Inuit lived on a diet composed almost entirely of meat for thousands of years.  It was a more sustainable choice than farming.  (Though if the climate keeps warming, that may change.)  
What do a small number of people (40,000) living close to the Arctic circle have to do with sustainability of the methods used to feed 300 million Americans?
The question is "Can sustainable agriculture feed the world," is it not?
>The beef industry says it's only 450 gallons, or something like that.  I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.  And a lot of that water is to grow corn.  If we don't feed them corn, that water use goes away.

I agree. I have a suspecion that the statistics on water use is tainted by groups prompting animal rights or a vegetarian diet.

>OTOH, you don't have to feed them grain at all.  You can't eat grass.  The cow can

Most of the the feedstock that animals can consume is Legumes which don't require fertializer input like corn and wheat. Currently surplus corn and wheat is feed to animals because its available, and it bulks up the animals quicker.

You lose 90% of the protein, 99% of the carbohydrates and 100% of the fiber when you turn grain into livestock.

Percentage of energy return (as food energy per fossil energy expended) of most energy efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5%

Percentage of energy return (as food energy per fossil energy expended) of least energy efficient plant food: 32.8%

Source: Organic Gardening and Sustainable Agriculture Facts and Statistics

I happened to be reading Gene Logsdon's All Flesh Is Grass over my break just now. The author is promoting, in his fun to read way, pasture-based livestock farming rather than grain-based farming. How timely.

Ubik, you're committing a bit of a non-sequitor here...and Leanan is kind of at fault for bringing up a point that is largely orthogonal to your main point (50% reduction in meat production). It's a sad day when two people who agree waste their time arguing.

Your point about consuming more grain directly, rather than via livestock, is a fair one. The same goes for your point that meat consumption should be cut in half. But you are failing to address Leanan's point that livestock can convert largely indigestable stuff (ie. grass, legumes, shrubs, and brush) to human-digestable food (meat). And this can all be done with a bare minimum of labour or fossil fuels as input (see the book above).

My understanding is that 70% of grain produced in the US is fed to livestock (source: Joel Salatin's excellent, but unfortunately named, You Can Farm). This is absurd, especially when you realize that cattle, sheep, and goats are quite inept at digesting grain (but this is not true of pigs, chicken, and several varieties of farmed fish). Cultivating land so that you can feed livestock something that they aren't particularly good at digesting is a type of lunacy that will end with increasing transportation fuel costs. It is my belief that meat production would only fall slightly if land used to grow grain was converted to pasture for ruminant livestock to graze directly. Mr. Logsdon actually makes the argument that this change could bring an increase in per-acre production, and all with much less fuel consumption.

As for water, all the water consumed by a livestock animal is not wasted. With pastured livestock, much of it spread onto pasture as urine. In effect, you get some irrigation for free just by watering your cattle. The same goes for the protein, carbohydrates, and fiber. The pies can either be left for the benefit of the pasture, or used for vegetable production.

Mark,

Well said.

There is a sustainable way to grow meat animals and vegetables on the same land.  This used to be called crop rotation.  Vegetable to grains to grass and back to vegetables again over a 5-7 year period.  Grazing the cattle on the grass is very efficient and there is that manure to spread on fields that are going into vegetables or grains.  You need wonderful design of the farm to allow water and fences to be in the right place as you move the animals around but it used to be common practice.

I can't find the link, but there was a Smithsonian magazine article a few years ago about intensive rotation where a small farm (less than 150 acres?) had cattle, pigs, chickens, grains, grass and vegetables all in a complex cycle one following the other.  I remember the chickens followed the cattle and picked apart the pies looking for seeds and grubs.  The chickens were modified free range using large movable pens (12 x 12 feet cages on wheels) that concentrated them over recently grazed land.  Everybody got moved daily.  Feed efficiency was very high and I think the only fertilizer was phosphorous in low doses.

High intensive grazing is making a comeback see Texas link here and Wisconsin link here.  Clearly if this can work in these two extremes the rest of the country could adopt.

The down side to all these approaches is they can only be scaled so far.  One operator can't raise 5000 head of cattle plus chickens and rotate crops, etc.  You need multiple farms/operations to do that large of production.  In a climate where everything is based on margin and volume this approach loses every time.  Hence the consolidation to very large specialized crop or animal production in recent decades.

With that same water you could irrigate the "land too dry to grow people food" and grow 10 times as much, calorie wise, in the form of vegetables, fruits and grains.


If you want to do that sustainable you need fertilizer too, or you'll end up exhausting the ground in a few years. That fertilizer would either be made by the famous Haber-Bosch process or come from animal dung.
> you want to do that sustainable you need fertilizer too, or you'll end up exhausting the ground in a few years

Not All crops deplete the soil.  Legume plants self fertilize, These include alfalfa, peas, soybean, and may others. Unfortunately the majority of crops planted (grains, corn, etc) require fertializer inputs. Prior to the use of chemical fertilizers, farmers rotated fields, where one or two fields might contain a harvestable crop and the remained where planted with grasses to revitailize the field. However, this is less productive because it requires about 4 times the land for same amount of crops produced. With the Green revolution (chemical fertializers) the same farmer could produce crops on all of his land.

Now the problem is reversing that process is going to be very difficult. In order to go back to the old system, farmers will need to aquired 150% more land than they currently own, or we need to shrink the population by 75%.

Although I suspect that we would not need to go all the way back if we plant a mix of Legumes and grains on the same fields (at the same time) and scale back fertilizer use. Perhaps we can get by with only increasing the farm land use by 30% to 50% (guestimate) and by curbing wasted food.

Do you also know that the average human from birth to just the age of 25 years.  Consumes no less than 4,500 gallons of water alone.  And this is at that min. 64 ounces of water a day.

The numbers quoted so often about the cow's wter per pound of beef. Hides a big truth,  Life takes water.

It hides another truth, Most cows are totally consumed by the industrial processes of the World we live in.  Not just the beef we get at the grocery.

Meat cattle can be totally grown off of grasses, and they do not have to be forced into feed lots.  We do that because we want to supply money for the stock holders( pardon the pun) in a profitable business.  

Sustainable Meat and Dairy are possible.  Getting all your protein requirements from veggies is very hard if you have to grow everything yourself.  Sure you can get a lot of proteins from wheat, oats and other grains, but Look at European Protein consumetion before Beans were added to their diet and you will see that it was pretty poor.  

A full blending of our food stuffs is what is most sustainable.  Goats, Sheep, Cows, for land that can not be used for farming. If you don't over tax the natural sytems to grow your food, you can get a lot more out of the land you do have.  We have a lot technology that we can use to increase our food production.  Someone on another thread, stated that they had Food fish, in a hottub in their back yard.  

We can live SUSTAINABLE!!  We just have to think out of the box we have been living in for so long. And there will be a population reduction, how that happens I don't know, but it will happen.  We don't like looking at that because we see our loved ones in the cross hairs, But if you take the massive use of Fossil imputs out of the mix, The population of 6,500,000,000 people is just to large.  We see the taxing of the whole system as it is.  

Again, I do not know, who lives and who dies, but 6.5 billion can not for much longer be the world's population.