"With this Hizbullah operation," said Beirut columnist Hussam Itani, "the collapse of the Arab system has given birth to its alternative." That alternative, anarchic by definition, is one in which non-state actors derive their strength from the very fact that, militant, populist, welling up from below, they have little to do with the system, a system they render yet more impotent and irrelevant as they impose their agenda on it and the world.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair warned Iran and Syria that they face 'the risk of increasing confrontation' unless they reform their behavior in the Middle East.
'Iran and Syria have a choice. And they may think that they can avoid this choice; in fact, they can't,' Blair said after talks at the White House with US President George Bush.
'They can either come in and participate as proper and responsible members of the international community, or they will face the risk of increasing confrontation,' said Blair.
I see the opposite of whatever you see! :-) Where ya been?
I see the coming of war, as the US tries to assert hegemony and the world resists. I see nations with oil asserting new power, and the US and its allies fighting back.
I see the failing of an Empire, and the coming conflicts that this will involve.
I forget the name of the book but it was written by to chinese generals in the 90's about how to bring down the US through unconventional warfare (by encouraging third party small states to engage/challenge us) and a repeated cold war expressed through korea. At the same time they said to keep trade relations and destroy our economy through mercantilism. I'll post it later but need to llok on my shelf. I have been in the process of moving to brasil. After what happened to my fiance she won't live here.
I see the same thing but still see korea/iran as the problem.
No way I am a redneck (ask cherenkov) from tennessee, I work in GOMEX as a medic, but I get a paid flight to and from anywhere so I am moving to Brasil. My best friend from paramedic school introduced me to his sister a few years back and she is getting her phd in political science at Unicamp near Sao Paulo. So that is how I ended up there.
Last time I flew her up she was interrogated for four hours and they tore a page from her diary and had her strip searched and made her cry. Long story but she had all her documents and no contraband and was still treated that way. So she is a bit anti american. Odd couple if you know me.
Here is the book it is on amazon, hard to call it a conspiracy theory since it was written a few years back but a lot of things click when you read it. At the same time though we use similar methods to cajole foreign powers.
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30. Unrestricted Warfare: China's Master Plan to Destroy America
by Qiao Liang, Wang Xiangsui
you might be better off in Brazil. They make better ethanol than we do and also have crazy Carnivale parties that make New Orleans look like catholic school. good luck.
It both saddens and angers me to learn of yet another example in which someone arriving in the US is bullied by police-state thugs that pose as airport screeners. The way your fiancee was treated makes me ashamed to be an American, something I never thought I would be saying as recently as only a few years ago.
The irony is that Brazil does not exactly enjoy a reputation for being a paragon of liberty and freedom, and if your finacee finds America repressive in comparison, then that speaks volumes about where this country is headed.
Good luck on your move to Brazil. (If I were younger, I'd seriously consider getting out of Dodge myself.)
In 1975... having spent 5 years increasingly growing to love American literature & music... I decided I would like to spend 3 months travelling to "all those places" I was reading/ hearing about... so I saved up, quit my job... and was refused a visa in London... "If you don't have a job how do we know you will return from our wonderful country?"
No matter that Mexicans were walking over the border in their thousands (even back then)
So I flew to Canada and ended up getting a US visa in Winnipeg in 5 minutes...crossed over at Vancouver on a Greyhound without even being checked and ended up hitchhiking the length & breadth of USA...
Five years later in 1980 visa restrictions were lifted... so I decided to repeat the exercise... this time I was interrogated at JFK... had my diary & address book scanned... Spent 6 wonderful weeks delivering cars with DriveAway...
But after two bad experiences with US bureaucracy ...I didn't return to the good ol'US of A for another 20 years
( Sorry...not really PO... just an opportunity to vent!!)
I think this "welling up from below" stuff is what kills Empires. The "Working independently together" method was espoused by the various US militias in the 1990s and it worked - as awful as his act was, Timothy McVeigh pointed out that if the US internal police forces kept shooting kids, stomping cats to death, terrorizing old people, killing more kids, shooting babes in arms, etc then unpredictable independent operators such as him would make 'em hurt. And he did. His awful act did have the effect of causing the US's internal forces, use of which against the US population was ramping up to a frightening degree, to sit back and reconsider. Other than Waco, McVeigh, etc themselves, the biggest thing that percolated through the media to the proles was a lot of noise about the "militias", first making them out to be scary and then quickly changing to ridiculing them as a bunch of fat old men running around in the woods, since gov't/militia skirmishes were over (the point had been proven and the gov't didn't feel it would win an all-out war with the populace) and the idea was to make militias sound silly and hope they'd disband. Many have, the militia movement has reallly died down, but it's reasy to rise up in a second if needed - this is the lesson the US gov't learned.
Not too long after this, the attention was turned to foreigners, especially those handy ay-rabs, and of course 9-11 gave everyone some bad guys to pay attention to.
Someone posted in another thread, there was a comparison being made between how the collapse of Rome went and how it might go for the US, and they said before there's actual starvation, what really happens is you come to hate your country. By this I think they mean not only literally hating your country, easy to do if your country is the US, but that by hating your country you're willing to leave it, live low enough on the energy scale to be untaxable, etc. (Living low on the energy/income scale enough that you're not taxable is the method advocated by That Guy Who Wrote The Book "Radical Simplicity". I think it's a noble method and the only one available to most of us. Most of us would leave the US if we could.)
You are smart, and fortunate, to leave the US. Your wife is right - she's had one taste of the Evil Empire and No More.
Luke Skywalker.... yes, good quote because movies are reality.
However, Geo. Washington did grow up wanting to be a British officer. I grew up wanting to be part of The System, working for HP or IBM, building fancier and shinier cogs for a bigger and better machine.
This is what happens when Empires go downhill, they get old and ugly and smelly and when they're not peeing on the carpet or eating the chickens, they're snarling and snapping at the 5 year old kid next door because he made eyes at the food bowl, and next thing you know anyone who gets in the way is getting bit and it's time to put the dangerous bugger down....
I am an American and I do not see us as an evil empire.
Oilrig MD,
There is much that is good about America.
But which way are the weather-man vanes pointing?
Calling something a "Patriot Act" when on fact it is an Invasion of Rights play? That does not bode well. Talking about "No Child Left Behind" when you mean after the Rapture? That doesn't sound too kosher.
This is not a new claim. It is interesting that it appeared on CSPAN. I've believed the government was involved from the beginning. It was a very flawed plan. When you have the support of TPTB and the media you just ignore the obvious. The Bush administration has demonstrated their willingness to commit crimes over and over. They are guilty of war crimes and treason. Their energy policy is simply a means to make big oil rich. Our country is completely unprepared for peak oil. This scares me more than anything.
Let's keep hoping Yergin is right, that we have 30 more years and that somewhere in this long era of "undulation" a light bulb goes off and the American populace wakes up and realizes the herd is a headin' for the cliff.
Git along. Go along lill' doggie. Yeeha. Rawhide.
(Right click on image & pick "View Image" for bigger view)
The CSPAN broadcast of the Panel Discussion held on the second day of the conference which featured Webster Tarpley, Steven Jones, Bob Bowman, James Fetzer, & Alex Jones IS BEING RE-AIRED TUESDAY August 1st at 6:10pm EDT.
The way your fiancee was treated makes me ashamed to be an American,
DON'T!
Americans have other qualities and you better bear with the "negatives" because deeply ingrained cultural traits never go away.
Remember the early settlers were a mix of bigots and outlaws, from there you get :
- The righteousness of bigots.
- The ruthlessness of outlaws.
- The entrepreneurial mindset of migrants to a risky yet promising place.
You can't have it all good :-)
P.S. Just think what this kind of "stickyness" of behaviors (not only the ones above) mean with respect to the upcoming and quickly unfolding changes...
Back in March China threatened to sell US bonds if we didn't behave ourselves. And Baby Hugo is visiting Iran today... and he also made threats about cutting off oil imports to the US if we do not behave ourselves...
The West is losing Leverage everyday ... all because of Peak Energy and Matter. Fewer choices - harder rocks and hard places - claustrophobia is setting in for All Sides.
The World was already pissed off at us enough before the Lebanon thing, now, if there's a pissed-offedness scale, we're probably doubled the reading.
I'm surprised Hugo and the rest haven't already dropped the hammer on us, but I think they know what they're doing - the idea is to kill the Beast without the Beast killing you in its death throes. They need to come up with an economic/resource/possible force of arms triple whammy that's very well thought out and well .... I have faith in 'em.
It is hard to see how our government is combatting any of the modern threats in any but militaristic terms -- just as the book predicts.
Catastophic system failure seems almost guaranteed. Surely the smart folks in the defense and state departments can see this. Is all the warfare just a smokescreen and they are really working through secret back channels to defeat our enemies?
i think the people in the defense department are blinded by their own arrogance.
they are so secure in the thinking that they are the top military in the world they cannot fathom anyone being able to do this.
Don't stop by just saying "arrogance". Also add a huge serving of greed, superstition (My god is greater than your god), idiotic optimism and disdain for human life.
But you also have to remember that the DOD is like a giant chainsaw. It does exactly (and occasionally reluctantly) what the politicians tells it to do.
Catastophic system failure seems almost guaranteed.
Very likely.
The "smart folks in the defense and state department" are no match for ancient chinese strategies.
I did not read the book but the Wikipedia entry is explicit enough, this is very typical of the chinese approach.
The whole of China has been living thru more than 2 millenia of such struggles, since Warring States.
You may also consider that the publishing of this book IS part of the assault as a PsyOP and that it contains a calculated mix of truth and disinformation.
Aren't the authors colonels in the People's Liberation Army?
I doubt the military in China are allowed to go public as casually as in the US.
China has been done by westerners only with the help of technology which they underestimated, but now they are up to speed on technology.
Though, the various impending "Peaks" are throwing in a few aggravating factors for everyone, "interesting times" indeed.
Lots of stuff going on indeed Twilight - too much to keep up with.
The US quickly shuttles "Weapons and supplies" to Israel to the dismay of Mr. Blair. Bunker Busters are said to be part of the package (although their may be much more... why not tell Blair until after the fact unless you don't want even the Brits Sniffin' Around ???).
Now Israel backs off from Tyre... maybe a carpet bombing campaign to level some villages is in the works ???? - as the rest of the 30K reserves Israel called up prepare to Mop Up afterwards??? --- it will be interesting to see how well the Hezbollah Bunker system holds up).
Iran rejects the Nuke resolution the Group of 8 Hegemonz cobbled together the past few days...
Hezbollah "politicians" backed a "peace package" that doesn't mention disarming Hezbollah and which they know will not be acceptable to Israel (meanwhile, Israel continues to offer a similar package they know will not be acceptable to Hezbollah).
Bush and Blair QUICKLY try to find forces to join a "non-UN Peace Keeping Force" (hezbollah asked who the International Forces will be Aiming At...) and Iran finds it's options and weapons are disappearing fast while The West Carves a New Middle East - which of course is exactly what They want to do, but they want to carve a little differently ;)
Oh what a web we have weaved ...
Both Pakistan and India are Energy Basket Cases with nuclear weapons and are once again rattling their sabres (pakistan is a Nuclear Allah-Worshipping country - a very dangerous wild card infiltrated by Moozlim fanatics).
Nut cases in North Korea Just Say No to the UN resolution telling them to come back to the 6 party talks or starve to death...
US consumers grumble about gas prices and ReRuns....
Dangerous Combinations of Events ... The Perfect Storm?
and speaking of perfect storms - the Atlantic is starting to bubble up. Add some spin - and there's plenty of that around these days! - and everybody gets the "perfect excuse" for economic collapse this fall. Act O'god. Like I always say, the important thing to most people is who to blame. And the most important thing to gov'ts is convincing the people to blame someone else!
"the important thing to most people is who to blame."
THANK YOU SUNSPOT !! spot on.
That is the most annoying part of this experience so far for me.
And if you look back at history, I think at TimezUp like these, you see there was no "one" to blame. Take out any individual and someone else would have filled his role and the outcome would be very similar to what we have today.
And again, you are exactly right - we are actually encouraged by our LeADerz to "blame someone else" - that is the norm historically and the Chosen Scapegoats curiously happen to have what We Need (including Energy = slave labor).
"In the End, Everyone is Responsible for Themselves," says Mother Nature (I think she means "thou shall not become overly dependent on your neighbor, or covet your neighborz ass or solar PV system, - or depend on Hal at the Utility company...)
Apparently, not everyone is as worried as some of us are.
A few days ago, the letters-to-the-editor section of our local paper had no less than two letters voicing complaints that the new format of the paper's weekly TV section was more difficult to read than the old one.
However, among the letters for most of the whole week, there was not a single one about energy, Iraq, or the Israeli destruction of Lebanon. The few times there are letters remotely connected to 'energy', they are consist of complaints about high gasoline prices. This may be more the result of timidity on the part of the paper's editorial staff than true reader apathy, but I suspect it's the result of both.
I did notice, though, that since the Israel/Lebanon war started, our paper has published numerous syndicated pro-Israel editorials but only one that mildly voiced opposition to what Israel has been doing. The paper is part of the Gannett chain of papers, so this may be a corporate policy.
If you want to get a more unbiased view of what's going on in Lebanon and the Middle East in general, totally ignore US mainstream media TV (including PBS) and watch BBC World News. US coverage is more sanitized, whilst BBC coverage is far more gritty and graphic. Better yet, don't watch any TV news at all.
I agree completely with you and Twilight - just turn the garbage TV right off. And look to all sources of media around the world = then think for yourself ;)
I know exactly what you mean about how oblivious and COMPLACENT our friends, families and neighbors in our 3D world are to the incredible events unfolding... (godz what a incredible mess it is going to be in my Profoundly Local neighborhood when the stupid bastards wake up... I am going on vacation for a while I think - lol).
I do not believe there is any conspiracy to hide the Truth of Peak Energy and Peak Matter - I think this is the typical Path of Mass Delusion.
Flights home stopped as US figures out Baghdad security plan
WASHINGTON Any American family thinking their soldier is coming home soon from Iraq may be in for a nasty surprise. All flights out of there for troops at the end of their deployment are canceled, while the military tries to figure out how to make Baghdad safe.President Bush had said earlier this week that soldiers in other parts of Iraq would go to the capital.
Today, defense officials say commanders are working out the details of a plan to move as many as five-thousand soldiers with tanks and armored vehicles. They'd team up with Iraqi police and army units, turning every Baghdad operation into a joint effort.
America now has about 130-thousand troops in Iraq, with 30-thousand in the capital.
joule you're not going to get any news out of the US propamedia so don't even try.
Try the Asia Times, the various British newspapers the Guardian being one to check, other sources from Europe, even Australia, etc. Britain's ruling government is a bunch of Baby Bushes but they do have papers that take the other side, which is something you won't find in the US. There are some US sources that are not utter bullshit, but they're very rare - all I respect are Zmag and Common Dreams. The Nation magazine/website is right up there too. All very small and obscure, but there.
I need to start buying The Nation, I'd subscribe, but don't want to get on a list. It's at the really well-stocked newsstands.
Now there are also sources like The Daily Kos, stuff like that, but they're just into hero-worshiping Hillary and Dean (father of the DNC credit card for poor peeps at 25% interest) and so on. They have their heads up their asses as firmly as the Repubs, and are owned by the same corporations.
So, get to know some Brit dissident and European/Asian news sites and kill that TV. I don't even own a TV, myself.
I still own a TV but it doesn't work. Television is the main reason I can rarely spend more than an hour or two at any person's home I visit (why is there one on CONstantly ... usually in several rooms at once... and how about MUTE the damn commercials instead of turning up the volume and hushing conversation for them...)
In fact, since I quit watching TV I can see what it does to people for the first time in my life.
Thank Mother for Forced powerdown because it will also stop the dumbing down eventually ;)
I was recently trying to think of some "positives" of post PO... and the first one that came to mind was ... no oil > no useless `plastic' products > nothing to sell >> no advertising industry!! Yo!!
Simplistic, I know (it was only a daydream) Will it happen??? Probably not...
As for "will TV survive as we know it?" Now that's an interesting one...
Iwo Jima was pounded with thousands of tons of explosives before the US invaded... didn't exactly take care of the problem. There is no was artillery and airpower will take care of their 'problem'
There are many twists and turns in history that are not always clear except to some of those close to the events. The USSR suffered through a crisis in the 1980s brought about by (a) a massive expensive arms race with the US, (b) the collapse of oil prices (instigated by Reagan and acted upon by the Saudis), and (c) a counter espionage program that led the Soviets into a technological cul-de-sac. The arms race and the collapse of oil prices did not by themselves deter the expansionists within the USSR. In fact, their position was "use it or lose it" with regards to their nuclear arsenal and their then established ability to execute a first strike that had at least a small probability of success.
So what stayed their hand? Item (c) above, coupled with the First Gulf War. In that war the world has still not fully understood how coalition forces could sustain a few hundred total casualties while Iraq sustained 150,000 casualties. Yes, the coalition had superior tactics but that was not the entire story.
You see, the counter espionage program mentioned above led the Soviets for nearly a decade into stealing high tech plans from the US. Except for one small problem - the plans they were led to steal were deliberately defective plans. And the Soviets were well known for how accurately they copied such plans thus ensuring they would embed every such fault into every piece of equipment they built from stolen technology.
Thus we come to the First Gulf War and the absolute rout that it became. Prior to that war there was both serious proposals to strike first, and a growing unease as information started to come to the KGB that they had been taken in, fooled, used, for over a decade. Initially, none wanted to believe it but then the Gulf War happened. And Iraq, deliberately outfitted by the USSR in some of the best equipment the Soviets could offer, was destroyed on the field of battle as the US exploited every single fault known to exist in their equipment.
It was then and only then that the hardliners realized that any attempt to strike the US would only mean the end of the USSR. Mere months later the Soviet Union was no more. However, note that in the years since that the USSR has been very busy replacing every one of those strategic systems with newer systems, systems not built on defective stolen technology.
Now why do I bring this up? Because if the USSR, facing its final days, was tempted to "use it or lose it", can we be certain that the US might not adopt the same attitude? Can we be certain that the US will go quietly into the night, a washed up superpower living in the shadow of China and a resurgent Russia?
I don't know the answer to that question but I don't like the feeling I get when I consider the attitudes of the neocons. Especially when the neocons are writing about The Rise of US Nuclear Primary.
You ask what picture I see there and I see a desperate and dying superpower trying to impose its will one last time, and perhaps desperate enough to cross a taboo line whose final end we cannot yet see.
I remind you that the Pentagon itself was horrified at this administration's insistence on actually considering usage of "tactical" nuclear weapons (B61 bunker busters, as powerful and more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) against Iran. Worse, if none of you bothered to look at what was proposed, the US was considering hitting Iran with 75 "tactical" nuclear weapons (out of 400 total targets). And the argument from the White House was "So what can Russia or China do about it?" It was the same mindset as in the article I referenced.
I don't know how close we stand to something monumentally horrific but I don't like the way this is unfolding, and I am not comfortable with the people in the White House today.
The WSJ had an article late this week on the (Fundamentalist) Christian-Zionist movement, which is diligently working to support Israel, because of their belief that "The end is at hand." Fine. Feel free to spend your time and money as you so wish. Note that the Fundamentalist Christians are diligently working to support Israel, although they are certain that the Jews are not going to heaven--one of life's little ironies.
The kicker is that Bush sent the group a message encouraging their efforts--something to the effect that they should "Keep up God's work."
Have you begun to wonder if Bush is actually insane? What if he is determined to bring on Armageddon?
According to Seymour Hersh, the nuclear option has been taken off the table regarding Iran--but only because what amounted to a refusal to carry our orders by senior officers in the Pentagon.
A retired three star general had an essay in Time in which he twice commented that officers do not swear to follow orders--they swear to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. IMO, he was sending a message to Bush that he could order the launch of nuclear weapons against Iran, but the Pentagon would refuse to carry out the orders.
To seriously contemplate the unprovoked unilateral use of nukes on Iran, IMO, is the very definition of insanity. I suggest that we all pray--that this country, and the world, can get to January, 2009 without Bush, et al, actually bringing about Armageddon.
I think a coup by the US military who have indeed sworn to protect and defend the USA's constitution, and don't forget that good old line, "from all enemies foreign and domestic", would be an improvement. Our generals, I believe, have the attitude that war is best to avoid unless you really need to do it. It's always been our presidents, not the generals, who've been war-mongers. The job of the military has always been to do their best job acting on the orders of the Pres and Congress, trying to do so with the least amount of destruction and loss of life, because those things take up time better spent reaching the objective.
I also think anyone's who's Zionist is certifiably nuts. The idea that one group of people is superior, etc. is synonymous with Nazism. Yet if you read what the founders - and the present leading lights - of Zionism say, that's exactly what they're saying.
Don't even get me started on the loony things the rabid Christians believe!
What do you think of "Pilgrimnists"? You know, the ones who want to establish an Anglo-Saxon homeland in Plymouth, Massachusetts?
Oh. It already happened? Doh. I feel so stupid.
Maybe we can pretend it did not happen and start talking about the occupied territories of the Massachusetine peoples and how to lob rockets in there and retake what should be theirs? That sounds sane.
The parallels of the native Americans and the Palestinians is kind of interesting. The big difference of course was the use of bioweapons. (AKA: smallpox.) By the time the pilgrims landed in Plymouth smallpox was already spreading throughout the Americas. It's one of the main reasons the invading Europeans managed to get a foothold.
If I remember correctly a colonial general actually collected the blankets from a smallpox ward and gave them as "gifts" to the Indian chiefs.
The difference here is that we killed all the Indians. The Israelis don't have the capability to do that. Even if they used all their nukes they would still be surrounded by millions of pissed off, though no radioactive, Arabs.
And the BIG problem here, in general, is we're finding that the "Indians" were right - living lightly on the land, not having to work from dawn to late into the night to survive, etc.
It is amusing to see the West vs. Islam war as one of industrialists against those who for the most part live off of the land - not as hunter-gatherers but they are largely agricultural societies. Oh wait, here's a good one, the US using their latest goodies against a bunch of farmers in Vietnam, and getting their asses handed to them there too.
And I use the term "Indians" because that's what the Euros called 'em at first, and in their language the name stuck. I myself like the Canadian term First Nations, and to each tribe/group/language themselves, their name for themselves means The People. What are we? Why, we're People of course. Just People.
Our generals, I believe, have the attitude that war is best to avoid unless you really need to do it. It's always been our presidents, not the generals, who've been war-mongers.
Yeah, and General Sherman too. And Patton. But by and large, maybe I'm wrong but our military seems a bit more sane, having to deal with reality once in a while, than our gov't.
Are These the End Times?
The coauthor of the popular `Left Behind' series explains why he believes Christ will return in our lifetimes.
Excerpt:
Does this explain how living right with God, in a Christian sense, would entail supporting the Israeli state right now?
I think those two things are related. Christians who take the Bible literally are generally supportive of Israel because God promises to bless those nations that are a blessing to Israel and curse those nations that are not. And the history of America bears that out.
But is it accurate to equate the state of Israel, which is a geopolitical entity, with all Jewish people around the world, who far outnumber the people actually in Israel?
No, that's just a third of the number of Jews in the world.
So believers in the Rapture don't necessarily foresee a damnation of the Jews then?
No, we don't believe in the damnation of people in ethnic groups. We believe that's an individual decision. Now, it often follows in people groups. Take the Muslims that we've been talking about. Everybody knows that they do not accept Jesus Christ as a means of salvation from sin. That's the only way you can be saved, is to call on the name of the Lord. They're not about to do that.
Neither are Jews.
Correct. But during the Tribulation period, there'll be a sea change, and many Jews will accept Christ. Not all. Again, it's an individual decision.
Thursday, July 27, 2006 By Andrew Higgins, The Wall Street Journal
Excerpts:
WASHINGTON -- After Israel sent warplanes into Iraq in 1981 to bomb a nuclear reactor, Texas televangelist John Hagee sent letters to 150 fellow Christian preachers to rally support for the Jewish state.
He got just one positive response. When Mr. Hagee pressed ahead with plans for a pro-Israel gathering in a San Antonio theater, he says he got a death threat on the phone and someone shot out all the windows of his station wagon parked in his driveway.
Last week, as Israel's armed forces pounded Lebanon and worries of a wider conflagration mounted, Mr. Hagee presided over what he called a "miracle of God": a gathering of 3,500 evangelical Christians packed into a Washington hotel to cheer Israel and its current military campaign.
Standing on a stage bedecked with a huge Israeli flag, Mr. Hagee drew rapturous applause and shouts of "amen" as he hailed Israel for doing God's work in a "war of good versus evil." Calls for Israel to show restraint violate "God's foreign-policy statement" toward Jews, he said, citing a verse from the Old Testament that promises to "bless those who bless you" and curse "the one who curses you."
The gathering was sponsored by Christians United for Israel, a national organization the 66-year-old preacher set up this year. The group lobbies politicians in Washington, rallies grassroots support for Israel and aims to educate Christians on what it calls the "biblical imperative" of supporting the Jewish state.
Mr. Hagee is a leading figure in the so-called Christian-Zionist movement. This evangelical political philosophy is rooted in biblical prophecies and a belief that Israel's struggles signal a prelude to Armageddon. Its followers staunchly support the Bush administration's unequivocal backing of Israel in its current battle with Hezbollah in Lebanon.
President Bush sent a message to the gathering praising Mr. Hagee and his supporters for "spreading the hope of God's love and the universal gift of freedom." The Israeli prime minister also sent words of thanks. Israel's ambassador, its former military chief and a host of U.S. political heavyweights, mostly Republican, attended.
At a time when Islamist groups are displacing secular nationalists as the main vehicle for political revolt across the Middle East, Mr. Hagee and like-minded evangelicals are injecting greater religious fervor into American attitudes and policy toward the region. They see, and even sometimes seem to embrace, the notion of a global conflict between Islam and the Judeo-Christian West, just as do many zealous Muslims.
"This is a religious war that Islam cannot -- and must not -- win," Mr. Hagee wrote in a recent book, "Jerusalem Countdown," which focuses on what he says is a coming nuclear showdown with Iran. "The end of the world as we know it is rapidly approaching. ... Rejoice and be exceeding glad -- the best is yet to be." The book has sold nearly 700,000 copies since it was released in January, according to his Florida-based religious publisher, Strang Communications.
Superstitious nut jobs bent on destroying the world.
People keep distorting Christianity till they cause untold suffering. The crusades and the Spanish inquisition spring to mind.
PS: Here in the deep south people openly embrace the whole Apocalypse thing so they can be with Jesus.
There is a thought out there that if Iran had the bomb they would use it against Israel. As two Presidents of Iran have said, if it cost 10 million Muslim deaths to eliminate Israel as a state, so be it.
So far, Iran has pushed talk, and not force in regards to the latest Lebanon War.
Kianoosh Sanjari: Translation by Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi
This afternoon Ahmad Batebi, was arrested in front of his home in Tehran by plain clothes secret service agents of the Ministry of Intelligence and Security of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
At 5 pm on Saturday evening, as Batebi and his wife Somaya, exited their apartment building they were accosted by several agents, forcing Batebi and Somaya back inside for interrogation and inspection of their home.
Somaya Batebi said that the agents spent 3 hours inspecting their apartment and finally gathered and confiscated Batebi's personal property, including his computer, cellular phone, CD's, several files and family photo albums.
In a phone call, Ahmad Batebi's father expressed fear and concern for his son's safety and wellbeing; Batebi's father said that if his son's situation is not clarified by tomorrow, Sunday, July 30th, he and other members of the Batebi will start a hunger strike.
Batebi's father also stated that Ahmad himself had communicated that should he be illegally re-arrested, he would go on hunger strike during the initial hours of his detention.
It appears that after interrogation that Ahmad Batebi would have been transferred to detention center 209 of the Ministry of Intelligence and Security.
The 'Arab system' is dying in Lebanon
The rhetoric against Iran is starting to heat up:
Blair warns Iran, Syria of 'confrontation'
Hezbollah leader said to be hiding in Iranian Embassy
NBC/WSJ poll: U.S. pessimism on increase Doubts about children's future and concerns about wars weigh heavily
South America: Hugo Chávez to the fore
Is this starting to paint a picture yet?
I see the coming of war, as the US tries to assert hegemony and the world resists. I see nations with oil asserting new power, and the US and its allies fighting back.
I see the failing of an Empire, and the coming conflicts that this will involve.
I see the same thing but still see korea/iran as the problem.
Last time I flew her up she was interrogated for four hours and they tore a page from her diary and had her strip searched and made her cry. Long story but she had all her documents and no contraband and was still treated that way. So she is a bit anti american. Odd couple if you know me.
Here is the book it is on amazon, hard to call it a conspiracy theory since it was written a few years back but a lot of things click when you read it. At the same time though we use similar methods to cajole foreign powers.
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30. Unrestricted Warfare: China's Master Plan to Destroy America
by Qiao Liang, Wang Xiangsui
It both saddens and angers me to learn of yet another example in which someone arriving in the US is bullied by police-state thugs that pose as airport screeners. The way your fiancee was treated makes me ashamed to be an American, something I never thought I would be saying as recently as only a few years ago.
The irony is that Brazil does not exactly enjoy a reputation for being a paragon of liberty and freedom, and if your finacee finds America repressive in comparison, then that speaks volumes about where this country is headed.
Good luck on your move to Brazil. (If I were younger, I'd seriously consider getting out of Dodge myself.)
In 1975... having spent 5 years increasingly growing to love American literature & music... I decided I would like to spend 3 months travelling to "all those places" I was reading/ hearing about... so I saved up, quit my job... and was refused a visa in London... "If you don't have a job how do we know you will return from our wonderful country?"
No matter that Mexicans were walking over the border in their thousands (even back then)
So I flew to Canada and ended up getting a US visa in Winnipeg in 5 minutes...crossed over at Vancouver on a Greyhound without even being checked and ended up hitchhiking the length & breadth of USA...
Five years later in 1980 visa restrictions were lifted... so I decided to repeat the exercise... this time I was interrogated at JFK... had my diary & address book scanned... Spent 6 wonderful weeks delivering cars with DriveAway...
But after two bad experiences with US bureaucracy ...I didn't return to the good ol'US of A for another 20 years
( Sorry...not really PO... just an opportunity to vent!!)
Not too long after this, the attention was turned to foreigners, especially those handy ay-rabs, and of course 9-11 gave everyone some bad guys to pay attention to.
Someone posted in another thread, there was a comparison being made between how the collapse of Rome went and how it might go for the US, and they said before there's actual starvation, what really happens is you come to hate your country. By this I think they mean not only literally hating your country, easy to do if your country is the US, but that by hating your country you're willing to leave it, live low enough on the energy scale to be untaxable, etc. (Living low on the energy/income scale enough that you're not taxable is the method advocated by That Guy Who Wrote The Book "Radical Simplicity". I think it's a noble method and the only one available to most of us. Most of us would leave the US if we could.)
You are smart, and fortunate, to leave the US. Your wife is right - she's had one taste of the Evil Empire and No More.
I am an american and I do not see us as an evil empire.
I want to fix things when they are broken.
I can only hope things go well...........
However, Geo. Washington did grow up wanting to be a British officer. I grew up wanting to be part of The System, working for HP or IBM, building fancier and shinier cogs for a bigger and better machine.
This is what happens when Empires go downhill, they get old and ugly and smelly and when they're not peeing on the carpet or eating the chickens, they're snarling and snapping at the 5 year old kid next door because he made eyes at the food bowl, and next thing you know anyone who gets in the way is getting bit and it's time to put the dangerous bugger down....
Oilrig MD,
There is much that is good about America.
But which way are the weather-man vanes pointing?
Calling something a "Patriot Act" when on fact it is an Invasion of Rights play? That does not bode well. Talking about "No Child Left Behind" when you mean after the Rapture? That doesn't sound too kosher.
Something is wrong some place.
Did you see Alex Jones on C-SPAN?
Scary stuff if true. He claims the US Governement orchestrated 9/11 and not Bin Laden. Claims to have irrefutable proof.
Let's keep hoping Yergin is right, that we have 30 more years and that somewhere in this long era of "undulation" a light bulb goes off and the American populace wakes up and realizes the herd is a headin' for the cliff.
Git along. Go along lill' doggie. Yeeha. Rawhide.
(Right click on image & pick "View Image" for bigger view)
now free on google video!
DON'T!
Americans have other qualities and you better bear with the "negatives" because deeply ingrained cultural traits never go away.
Remember the early settlers were a mix of bigots and outlaws, from there you get :
- The righteousness of bigots.
- The ruthlessness of outlaws.
- The entrepreneurial mindset of migrants to a risky yet promising place.
You can't have it all good :-)
P.S. Just think what this kind of "stickyness" of behaviors (not only the ones above) mean with respect to the upcoming and quickly unfolding changes...
Back in March China threatened to sell US bonds if we didn't behave ourselves. And Baby Hugo is visiting Iran today... and he also made threats about cutting off oil imports to the US if we do not behave ourselves...
The West is losing Leverage everyday ... all because of Peak Energy and Matter. Fewer choices - harder rocks and hard places - claustrophobia is setting in for All Sides.
I'm surprised Hugo and the rest haven't already dropped the hammer on us, but I think they know what they're doing - the idea is to kill the Beast without the Beast killing you in its death throes. They need to come up with an economic/resource/possible force of arms triple whammy that's very well thought out and well .... I have faith in 'em.
It is hard to see how our government is combatting any of the modern threats in any but militaristic terms -- just as the book predicts.
Catastophic system failure seems almost guaranteed. Surely the smart folks in the defense and state departments can see this. Is all the warfare just a smokescreen and they are really working through secret back channels to defeat our enemies?
they are so secure in the thinking that they are the top military in the world they cannot fathom anyone being able to do this.
But you also have to remember that the DOD is like a giant chainsaw. It does exactly (and occasionally reluctantly) what the politicians tells it to do.
And I say this after 20 years as a DOD employee.
Very likely.
The "smart folks in the defense and state department" are no match for ancient chinese strategies.
I did not read the book but the Wikipedia entry is explicit enough, this is very typical of the chinese approach.
The whole of China has been living thru more than 2 millenia of such struggles, since Warring States.
You may also consider that the publishing of this book IS part of the assault as a PsyOP and that it contains a calculated mix of truth and disinformation.
Aren't the authors colonels in the People's Liberation Army?
I doubt the military in China are allowed to go public as casually as in the US.
China has been done by westerners only with the help of technology which they underestimated, but now they are up to speed on technology.
Though, the various impending "Peaks" are throwing in a few aggravating factors for everyone, "interesting times" indeed.
The US quickly shuttles "Weapons and supplies" to Israel to the dismay of Mr. Blair. Bunker Busters are said to be part of the package (although their may be much more... why not tell Blair until after the fact unless you don't want even the Brits Sniffin' Around ???).
Now Israel backs off from Tyre... maybe a carpet bombing campaign to level some villages is in the works ???? - as the rest of the 30K reserves Israel called up prepare to Mop Up afterwards??? --- it will be interesting to see how well the Hezbollah Bunker system holds up).
Iran rejects the Nuke resolution the Group of 8 Hegemonz cobbled together the past few days...
Hezbollah "politicians" backed a "peace package" that doesn't mention disarming Hezbollah and which they know will not be acceptable to Israel (meanwhile, Israel continues to offer a similar package they know will not be acceptable to Hezbollah).
Bush and Blair QUICKLY try to find forces to join a "non-UN Peace Keeping Force" (hezbollah asked who the International Forces will be Aiming At...) and Iran finds it's options and weapons are disappearing fast while The West Carves a New Middle East - which of course is exactly what They want to do, but they want to carve a little differently ;)
Oh what a web we have weaved ...
Both Pakistan and India are Energy Basket Cases with nuclear weapons and are once again rattling their sabres (pakistan is a Nuclear Allah-Worshipping country - a very dangerous wild card infiltrated by Moozlim fanatics).
Nut cases in North Korea Just Say No to the UN resolution telling them to come back to the 6 party talks or starve to death...
US consumers grumble about gas prices and ReRuns....
Dangerous Combinations of Events ... The Perfect Storm?
THANK YOU SUNSPOT !! spot on.
That is the most annoying part of this experience so far for me.
And if you look back at history, I think at TimezUp like these, you see there was no "one" to blame. Take out any individual and someone else would have filled his role and the outcome would be very similar to what we have today.
And again, you are exactly right - we are actually encouraged by our LeADerz to "blame someone else" - that is the norm historically and the Chosen Scapegoats curiously happen to have what We Need (including Energy = slave labor).
"In the End, Everyone is Responsible for Themselves," says Mother Nature (I think she means "thou shall not become overly dependent on your neighbor, or covet your neighborz ass or solar PV system, - or depend on Hal at the Utility company...)
Apparently, not everyone is as worried as some of us are.
A few days ago, the letters-to-the-editor section of our local paper had no less than two letters voicing complaints that the new format of the paper's weekly TV section was more difficult to read than the old one.
However, among the letters for most of the whole week, there was not a single one about energy, Iraq, or the Israeli destruction of Lebanon. The few times there are letters remotely connected to 'energy', they are consist of complaints about high gasoline prices. This may be more the result of timidity on the part of the paper's editorial staff than true reader apathy, but I suspect it's the result of both.
I did notice, though, that since the Israel/Lebanon war started, our paper has published numerous syndicated pro-Israel editorials but only one that mildly voiced opposition to what Israel has been doing. The paper is part of the Gannett chain of papers, so this may be a corporate policy.
If you want to get a more unbiased view of what's going on in Lebanon and the Middle East in general, totally ignore US mainstream media TV (including PBS) and watch BBC World News. US coverage is more sanitized, whilst BBC coverage is far more gritty and graphic. Better yet, don't watch any TV news at all.
I know exactly what you mean about how oblivious and COMPLACENT our friends, families and neighbors in our 3D world are to the incredible events unfolding... (godz what a incredible mess it is going to be in my Profoundly Local neighborhood when the stupid bastards wake up... I am going on vacation for a while I think - lol).
I do not believe there is any conspiracy to hide the Truth of Peak Energy and Peak Matter - I think this is the typical Path of Mass Delusion.
Flights home stopped as US figures out Baghdad security plan
WASHINGTON Any American family thinking their soldier is coming home soon from Iraq may be in for a nasty surprise. All flights out of there for troops at the end of their deployment are canceled, while the military tries to figure out how to make Baghdad safe.President Bush had said earlier this week that soldiers in other parts of Iraq would go to the capital.
Today, defense officials say commanders are working out the details of a plan to move as many as five-thousand soldiers with tanks and armored vehicles. They'd team up with Iraqi police and army units, turning every Baghdad operation into a joint effort.
America now has about 130-thousand troops in Iraq, with 30-thousand in the capital.
Try the Asia Times, the various British newspapers the Guardian being one to check, other sources from Europe, even Australia, etc. Britain's ruling government is a bunch of Baby Bushes but they do have papers that take the other side, which is something you won't find in the US. There are some US sources that are not utter bullshit, but they're very rare - all I respect are Zmag and Common Dreams. The Nation magazine/website is right up there too. All very small and obscure, but there.
I need to start buying The Nation, I'd subscribe, but don't want to get on a list. It's at the really well-stocked newsstands.
Now there are also sources like The Daily Kos, stuff like that, but they're just into hero-worshiping Hillary and Dean (father of the DNC credit card for poor peeps at 25% interest) and so on. They have their heads up their asses as firmly as the Repubs, and are owned by the same corporations.
So, get to know some Brit dissident and European/Asian news sites and kill that TV. I don't even own a TV, myself.
http://www.watchingamerica.com/index.shtml
In fact, since I quit watching TV I can see what it does to people for the first time in my life.
Thank Mother for Forced powerdown because it will also stop the dumbing down eventually ;)
Simplistic, I know (it was only a daydream) Will it happen??? Probably not...
As for "will TV survive as we know it?" Now that's an interesting one...
I am not complaining, just remarking that everything, even the dry technical details of Oil Depletion, is being overrun by Politics.
I don't know about the Atlantic this hurricane season, but the whole world is becoming enveloped in a perfect storm.
So what stayed their hand? Item (c) above, coupled with the First Gulf War. In that war the world has still not fully understood how coalition forces could sustain a few hundred total casualties while Iraq sustained 150,000 casualties. Yes, the coalition had superior tactics but that was not the entire story.
You see, the counter espionage program mentioned above led the Soviets for nearly a decade into stealing high tech plans from the US. Except for one small problem - the plans they were led to steal were deliberately defective plans. And the Soviets were well known for how accurately they copied such plans thus ensuring they would embed every such fault into every piece of equipment they built from stolen technology.
Thus we come to the First Gulf War and the absolute rout that it became. Prior to that war there was both serious proposals to strike first, and a growing unease as information started to come to the KGB that they had been taken in, fooled, used, for over a decade. Initially, none wanted to believe it but then the Gulf War happened. And Iraq, deliberately outfitted by the USSR in some of the best equipment the Soviets could offer, was destroyed on the field of battle as the US exploited every single fault known to exist in their equipment.
It was then and only then that the hardliners realized that any attempt to strike the US would only mean the end of the USSR. Mere months later the Soviet Union was no more. However, note that in the years since that the USSR has been very busy replacing every one of those strategic systems with newer systems, systems not built on defective stolen technology.
Now why do I bring this up? Because if the USSR, facing its final days, was tempted to "use it or lose it", can we be certain that the US might not adopt the same attitude? Can we be certain that the US will go quietly into the night, a washed up superpower living in the shadow of China and a resurgent Russia?
I don't know the answer to that question but I don't like the feeling I get when I consider the attitudes of the neocons. Especially when the neocons are writing about The Rise of US Nuclear Primary.
You ask what picture I see there and I see a desperate and dying superpower trying to impose its will one last time, and perhaps desperate enough to cross a taboo line whose final end we cannot yet see.
I remind you that the Pentagon itself was horrified at this administration's insistence on actually considering usage of "tactical" nuclear weapons (B61 bunker busters, as powerful and more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) against Iran. Worse, if none of you bothered to look at what was proposed, the US was considering hitting Iran with 75 "tactical" nuclear weapons (out of 400 total targets). And the argument from the White House was "So what can Russia or China do about it?" It was the same mindset as in the article I referenced.
I don't know how close we stand to something monumentally horrific but I don't like the way this is unfolding, and I am not comfortable with the people in the White House today.
The kicker is that Bush sent the group a message encouraging their efforts--something to the effect that they should "Keep up God's work."
Have you begun to wonder if Bush is actually insane? What if he is determined to bring on Armageddon?
According to Seymour Hersh, the nuclear option has been taken off the table regarding Iran--but only because what amounted to a refusal to carry our orders by senior officers in the Pentagon.
A retired three star general had an essay in Time in which he twice commented that officers do not swear to follow orders--they swear to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. IMO, he was sending a message to Bush that he could order the launch of nuclear weapons against Iran, but the Pentagon would refuse to carry out the orders.
To seriously contemplate the unprovoked unilateral use of nukes on Iran, IMO, is the very definition of insanity. I suggest that we all pray--that this country, and the world, can get to January, 2009 without Bush, et al, actually bringing about Armageddon.
I also think anyone's who's Zionist is certifiably nuts. The idea that one group of people is superior, etc. is synonymous with Nazism. Yet if you read what the founders - and the present leading lights - of Zionism say, that's exactly what they're saying.
Don't even get me started on the loony things the rabid Christians believe!
Oh. It already happened? Doh. I feel so stupid.
Maybe we can pretend it did not happen and start talking about the occupied territories of the Massachusetine peoples and how to lob rockets in there and retake what should be theirs? That sounds sane.
If I remember correctly a colonial general actually collected the blankets from a smallpox ward and gave them as "gifts" to the Indian chiefs.
http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/
It is amusing to see the West vs. Islam war as one of industrialists against those who for the most part live off of the land - not as hunter-gatherers but they are largely agricultural societies. Oh wait, here's a good one, the US using their latest goodies against a bunch of farmers in Vietnam, and getting their asses handed to them there too.
And I use the term "Indians" because that's what the Euros called 'em at first, and in their language the name stuck. I myself like the Canadian term First Nations, and to each tribe/group/language themselves, their name for themselves means The People. What are we? Why, we're People of course. Just People.
Two words: Curtis LeMay.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14083809/site/newsweek/
Are These the End Times?
The coauthor of the popular `Left Behind' series explains why he believes Christ will return in our lifetimes.
Excerpt:
Does this explain how living right with God, in a Christian sense, would entail supporting the Israeli state right now?
I think those two things are related. Christians who take the Bible literally are generally supportive of Israel because God promises to bless those nations that are a blessing to Israel and curse those nations that are not. And the history of America bears that out.
But is it accurate to equate the state of Israel, which is a geopolitical entity, with all Jewish people around the world, who far outnumber the people actually in Israel?
No, that's just a third of the number of Jews in the world.
So believers in the Rapture don't necessarily foresee a damnation of the Jews then?
No, we don't believe in the damnation of people in ethnic groups. We believe that's an individual decision. Now, it often follows in people groups. Take the Muslims that we've been talking about. Everybody knows that they do not accept Jesus Christ as a means of salvation from sin. That's the only way you can be saved, is to call on the name of the Lord. They're not about to do that.
Neither are Jews.
Correct. But during the Tribulation period, there'll be a sea change, and many Jews will accept Christ. Not all. Again, it's an individual decision.
Texas preacher leads campaign to let Israel fight
Thursday, July 27, 2006 By Andrew Higgins, The Wall Street Journal
Excerpts:
WASHINGTON -- After Israel sent warplanes into Iraq in 1981 to bomb a nuclear reactor, Texas televangelist John Hagee sent letters to 150 fellow Christian preachers to rally support for the Jewish state.
He got just one positive response. When Mr. Hagee pressed ahead with plans for a pro-Israel gathering in a San Antonio theater, he says he got a death threat on the phone and someone shot out all the windows of his station wagon parked in his driveway.
Last week, as Israel's armed forces pounded Lebanon and worries of a wider conflagration mounted, Mr. Hagee presided over what he called a "miracle of God": a gathering of 3,500 evangelical Christians packed into a Washington hotel to cheer Israel and its current military campaign.
Standing on a stage bedecked with a huge Israeli flag, Mr. Hagee drew rapturous applause and shouts of "amen" as he hailed Israel for doing God's work in a "war of good versus evil." Calls for Israel to show restraint violate "God's foreign-policy statement" toward Jews, he said, citing a verse from the Old Testament that promises to "bless those who bless you" and curse "the one who curses you."
The gathering was sponsored by Christians United for Israel, a national organization the 66-year-old preacher set up this year. The group lobbies politicians in Washington, rallies grassroots support for Israel and aims to educate Christians on what it calls the "biblical imperative" of supporting the Jewish state.
Mr. Hagee is a leading figure in the so-called Christian-Zionist movement. This evangelical political philosophy is rooted in biblical prophecies and a belief that Israel's struggles signal a prelude to Armageddon. Its followers staunchly support the Bush administration's unequivocal backing of Israel in its current battle with Hezbollah in Lebanon.
President Bush sent a message to the gathering praising Mr. Hagee and his supporters for "spreading the hope of God's love and the universal gift of freedom." The Israeli prime minister also sent words of thanks. Israel's ambassador, its former military chief and a host of U.S. political heavyweights, mostly Republican, attended.
At a time when Islamist groups are displacing secular nationalists as the main vehicle for political revolt across the Middle East, Mr. Hagee and like-minded evangelicals are injecting greater religious fervor into American attitudes and policy toward the region. They see, and even sometimes seem to embrace, the notion of a global conflict between Islam and the Judeo-Christian West, just as do many zealous Muslims.
"This is a religious war that Islam cannot -- and must not -- win," Mr. Hagee wrote in a recent book, "Jerusalem Countdown," which focuses on what he says is a coming nuclear showdown with Iran. "The end of the world as we know it is rapidly approaching. ... Rejoice and be exceeding glad -- the best is yet to be." The book has sold nearly 700,000 copies since it was released in January, according to his Florida-based religious publisher, Strang Communications.
People keep distorting Christianity till they cause untold suffering. The crusades and the Spanish inquisition spring to mind.
PS: Here in the deep south people openly embrace the whole Apocalypse thing so they can be with Jesus.
There is a thought out there that if Iran had the bomb they would use it against Israel. As two Presidents of Iran have said, if it cost 10 million Muslim deaths to eliminate Israel as a state, so be it.
So far, Iran has pushed talk, and not force in regards to the latest Lebanon War.
I got this off another site:
Breaking: Iranian student leader, Ahamad Batebi, arrested
Kianoosh Sanjari: Translation by Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi
This afternoon Ahmad Batebi, was arrested in front of his home in Tehran by plain clothes secret service agents of the Ministry of Intelligence and Security of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
At 5 pm on Saturday evening, as Batebi and his wife Somaya, exited their apartment building they were accosted by several agents, forcing Batebi and Somaya back inside for interrogation and inspection of their home.
Somaya Batebi said that the agents spent 3 hours inspecting their apartment and finally gathered and confiscated Batebi's personal property, including his computer, cellular phone, CD's, several files and family photo albums.
In a phone call, Ahmad Batebi's father expressed fear and concern for his son's safety and wellbeing; Batebi's father said that if his son's situation is not clarified by tomorrow, Sunday, July 30th, he and other members of the Batebi will start a hunger strike.
Batebi's father also stated that Ahmad himself had communicated that should he be illegally re-arrested, he would go on hunger strike during the initial hours of his detention.
It appears that after interrogation that Ahmad Batebi would have been transferred to detention center 209 of the Ministry of Intelligence and Security.