A good remedial instruction on oil field extraction, and all obviously pretty correct.

Of course, the issue still returns to OIP ((Oil In Place) and URR (Ultimate Recoverable Reserves).  

It always amuses me to hear people, when the issue of URR is brought up, suddenly often back peddle and say "Well that don't mean anything, what matters is how much can be produced on a daily, weekly, yearly basis, etc.", and then start talking about things like labor shortages, political or war issues, equipment shortages and failures etc.

But if we are discussing geological depletion and using the Hubbert Linearization (HL) none of these "above ground issues" are issues.
The whole idea of HL and geological depletion is based on an very correct count of the starting point.  Westexas often makes the argument, the very correct one I think, that at about 50% of Qt, the production will begin to drop, and if you have been using water injection, horizontal drills, and bottle brush along with the 4D finding methods, it may drop quite harshly, since you have been able to evacuate the reservior so efficiently.

Notice, however, the importance of approximate 50% of Qt.  To have that number, you must have had a very clear count of what 100% Qt was, or an accurate count of OIP and URR.

This is the problem in fields that have not been third party audited and operated by a firm that has been let us say "restrained" in it's release of information (I may be talking about Aramco, all through it's history, but even more so since 1982.

It goes without saying that the larger the oil fields discussed, the more even a tiny measurement error can mean.  A couple of percent difference in URR numbers either way can mean a huge surprise either good or bad, and could move the so called "peak" date by decades.   Given that Aramco themselves have estimated their own URR with as much as 100% spread in URR, and outside "guessers" have put the overall OIP and URR both well above and well below Aramco's own top and and bottom estimates,

At some point we are going to have to admit that we have NO IDEA what Saudi OIP and URR ever were, and never did.  This is what we should be letting the American people know, and it is equally true of the rest of OPEC and Venesuala and Mexico, among others.  It is sheer guesswork.

Westexes makes the case that HL worked on Texas, and worked on the Lower 48.  To a lesser extent, it has worked on the part of Alaska we have explored and drilled, and on the North Sea.  That is because we started with relatively good information.  

There are places where it's anybody's guess:  The U.S. Outer Continental Shelf comes to mind, as does most deep ocean prospects.  Canada is still guesswork in many places and so is frontier Siberia.  These are big areas.

Why would an assumption of the possibility of upside surprise be viable in some of these cases?   The major reason is that from 1982 through 1998, oil prices were at historic low prices, inflation adjusted.  Oil was flowing cheap and easy from Saudi Arabia, Canterell, the North Sea.  Why would oil companies who were busting their butt to return any dividend at all to their own investors and shareholders, spend big money exploring in an environment in which they were having trouble even maintaining their production staff and and infrastructure?  Most effort was going to the merger and acquisition efforts just to survive.

Think about that time span again, 1982 through 1998...and with a bit of lag before the money started pouring back in, even a bit longer, you might as well say 20 years.

So we could see some real upside surprises....but the inverse is true too.
I have become more and more convinced that our first and greatest effort MUST be to let the public know that we are running completely blind, and that all possible "case hardening" and contingency planning must be underway.  In another string on TOD, there is a story pulled from Energybulletin about the demise of JIT (Just In Time) inventory and planning.

Right now, I cannot imagine anything more dangerous than JIT applied to energy, natural gas and liquid fuel sources.  We should be expanding and diversifying our reserve storage, and shifting control outward to small companies, counties, states, maintainence utilities, even hospitals and healthcare agencies.  This is the single most valuable thing we can do on a large scale now.  Sorry about jumping on the soapbox, but please, think about what I am proposing.  It has very little downside and great potential to prevent chaos.

Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout

In another string on TOD, there is a story pulled from Energybulletin about the demise of JIT (Just In Time) inventory and planning.

Strange. I read the Kurt Cobb article referenced in EB and saw nothing about any actual demise in JIT practices. AFAIK, Toyota is still very JIT and trying to get even more of its suppliers to be so. Is there any evidence that JIT is in decline?

See my comment above for the link (EB just mirrors his original post).  It's not about JIT being in decline, it's about the domination of JIT practices, and the growing dependance on well-functioning transportation, being a danger in cases of the breakdown of transportation or unusual demand.
AFAIK, Toyota is still very JIT and trying to get even more of its suppliers to be so.

What is the 'punishment' for not doing JIT?

  1. need a warehouse (land and building are taxed)
  2. taxation on items in inventory
  3. oppunity cost of using the space for some other purpose (vs the oppertunity cost of not having whatever part)

Without change on taxation, why would anyone move away from JIT?
Without change on taxation, why would anyone move away from JIT?

Even discounting ANY taxation inventory has a running cost : the capital used (warehouse+stock proper) x interest rates.
Among the best examples that it is the very logic of markets/efficiency/profits which runs counter the safeguarding of "mission critical" operations.
Some kind of regulation is therefore in order, but that does not mean GOVERNMENTAL regulation.
The only safe regulations would be cultural/societal regulations, but establishing those takes TIME.
Any idea for speeding up such changes?

BTW, I know I am "banned" but to emphasize the sillyness of this you may notice that I was the first to publish the link to Kurt Cobb's article without anybody noticing.
Did I say morons?
(Yeah! I am still awkward, got 42 points)

Even discounting ANY taxation inventory has a running cost : the capital used (warehouse+stock proper) x interest rates.

VS the cost of being without.

Taxation just makes sure you let someone else hold the inventory bag.  

The only safe regulations would be cultural/societal regulations, but establishing those takes TIME.
Any idea for speeding up such changes?

Oh, how about a change in the artifical regulation which favors the largest merchants like the tax code?

sillyness of this you may notice that I was the first to publish the link to Kurt Cobb's article without anybody noticing.

You want a medal or just a chest to pin it on?

Taxation just makes sure you let someone else hold the inventory bag.

By this do you mean that the taxation "incentive" results in someone else up the supply chain to bear the cost of inventory so that it makes no difference overall?
This is wrong in all cases, with "taxation incentive" or just the running cost of capital, because :

1) Being subject to the same "incentives" suppliers will have the same policy of reducing inventory.

2) Even is for some reason (dumbness or technical constraints) they do not reduce their inventory they have no reason to INCREASE it.
Therefore the portion of YOUR inventory that you dropped off by JIT is still subtracted from the grand total of all RESERVES along the supply chain.

The "total slack" of the whole chain at the consumer end is decreased.

Yeah! Inventory is doubleplusungood, well known...

At Monday August 14, 2006 at 10:11 AM EST
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/8/14/9102/35436#11
the link to Is just-in-time nearly out of time? by Kurt Cobb
was posted

At Monday August 14, 2006 at 11:18 AM EST
http://www.theoildrum.com/comments/2006/8/13/232547/321/32#32
was posted with a link to the same material.

So when you said "you may notice that I was the first to publish the link to Kurt Cobb's article " what point were you trying to make?

You are making a diversion on the main argument (JIT desirable or not) by using Stratagem XXV on a minor point.

It's getting tiresome isn't it?
Not only am I a sucker but I am patient.

However, there is more to the point!
If you brought in this topic yourself:

Will the just-in-time religion which swept the world in the 1990s survive such a dynamic?

(so long as the tax code punishes firms for having stock on hand, yes)

It seems this was only to argue against taxation, as you repeated in this thread.
So your biases are beginning to show more clearly.
Am I wrong?

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong.   Feel better now that you have the affermation and attention seeking you want so badly?

Yes, you are wrong.

So you are DENYING that you are spitting out bullshit in favor of lower corporate taxation and, as a general policy of yours, trying to deviously support the interests of the wealthy and "business as usual" at the expense of survival of mankind and earth current ecology.

Could you back up this gratuitous "affirmation"?

So you are DENYING that you are spitting out bullshit in favor of lower corporate taxation and, as a general policy of yours, trying to deviously support the interests of the wealthy and "business as usual" at the expense of survival of mankind and earth current ecology.

Not only are you a stalker, but you are a poor one.   Not actually READING what is posted.

My, my, my.

The tax law exists to benefit large corporations.

Let me repeat that, because you might not understand.

The tax law exists to benefit large corporations.

Large corporations can buy a large number of items and move them through the market chain.  If I wish to have built a plastic mold and make lids similar to the tattler lids, I bet I can undercut the $13 per dozen price easy.  But, because I do not have a large corporations supply chain, I'm stuck with 4,183,000 lids at the end of the 1st year.  As the cost of energy goes up, the remaining lids have FAR more value, not to mention increased demand of home canning lids.  Which would be a fine thing (the building is paid for, the storage space is not all that great), but the taxes on inventory kills me over time.   And the arms length rules prevent me from dropping the $250k on making the lids, then selling the unsold lids for $10 at the end of the year to myself.  Or any of my relatives.

But you go right ahead and think that I'm all about "lower corporate taxation" because that is what gets you to post again and keep your attention seeking behavior engaged.   If your attention is hear that means you are not misbehaving in meatspace, and humanity is well served.

Actually, current tax and accounting regulations work against JIT.  See Waddell and Bodek's The Rebirth of American Industry.  The lure of FIFO accounting is more attractive than the tax penalty of the inventory.
Re: we are running completely blind

Roger, your statement is false. Sorry, but we've got multiple lines of evidence pointing to troubling conclusions including

  • Hubbert modelling
  • acknowledged decline rates in existing fields, depending on field type & characteristics
  • what I have called extreme production measures eg. where IOC's drill in ultra-deepwater to extract oil that used to be easy to get (the "low hanging fruit" is disappearing)
  • the downward trending discoveries curve
  • knowledge of what's coming onstream in the future
  • actual events unfolding eg. Cantarell
  • rising oil prices

And there are others I didn't mention. Why do you say we're running blind? HO's story tells us about onshore oil production in older existing fields and mitigating declines there. It's one line of evidence (2nd bullet point above).

For those commenting on JIT etc., there will be an open thread today. I suggest you use it.

-- Dave

On running in the blind....
I am in a bit of a hurry and have to head out, but just to get you started....I threw together some quick finds....point to be made, we have no idea how much oil and gas is out there....I will talk more on this later....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5945678/

"A lot depends, of course, on just how much oil remains underground. Many of those who fear a production peak is imminent base their forecast on estimates of what geologists call the "ultimate recoverable resource" of about 2 trillion barrels of oil. But there's disagreement among geologists on that number. A comprehensive study by the U.S. Geological Survey in 2000 estimated that some 3 trillion barrels of oil will ultimately be produced. Adelman argues that the amount of oil left to be produced is "unknowable."

Regardless of how much oil remains in the ground, says Deffeyes, the critical bottleneck is production capacity. "I can't drive into the filling station and say fill her up with reserves."

Deffeyes argues that production capacity has grown more slowly than demand - based on production figures that are a lot more reliable than reserve data.

"Production is a pretty firm number," he said. "Oil gets counted twice: once when it gets produced and once when it goes into the refinery. So we pretty much know how much is produced, and my Thanksgiving Day prediction is entirely based on production."

In case you missed it, peak was in 2000  (at least that's what they said in 1995

http://dieoff.org/page85.htm

http://www.moles.org/ProjectUnderground/motherlode/drilling/frontier.html

 The ultimate amount of conventional oil and gas resources left to be discovered in the world is an even more divisive topic. Writing in the March 1998 edition of Scientific American, two oil industry analysts argue that there is only 150 billion barrels of conventional oil left to be discovered. The US Geological Survey estimates that approximately 530 billion barrels more remain to be found.6  Another recent study indicated that the ultimate resources of conventional oil could be two to three times as great "depending on the price consumers can afford to pay."7  Natural gas, all agree, is somewhat, but not drastically, more plentiful.

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

Another recent study indicated that the ultimate resources of conventional oil could be two to three times as great "depending on the price consumers can afford to pay."7  Natural gas, all agree, is somewhat, but not drastically, more plentiful.

Of course, we can't afford to pay more in energy terms than it takes to get it out. But don't tell that to an economist.
We can pay more in energy terms than it takes to get it out of the ground. Well, if we are talking about oil, coking coal, etc.
It just isn't very profitable. Think of energy expensive oil as a sort of natural coal-to-liquids plant. If it's cheaper than making methanol, it works just as well.
Anybody read "The Goal" in the 90's, back when it was cult?  I guess TOC is a little different than JIT, but it kind of drives home the idea that inventory is ... suspeicious at least:

A fundamental principle of "Synchronous Manufacturing" can be illustrated by the example of an auditorium with one exit. If the people are instructed to leave the auditorium, the rate at which people can walk through the door is the same, regardless of the number of people in the auditorium. The particulars of the doorway set the rate (#/time) at which people can exit. The capacity of a factory to produce a certain number of products in a certain period of time is likened to the number of people who can walk through the doorway in a given period of time. The inventory of materials in process is like the number of people in the auditorium.

The realization that the inventory on hand is not simply related to the factory output is one of the most basic and important underpinnings of SM.

 In another string on TOD, there is a story pulled from Energybulletin about the demise of JIT (Just In Time) inventory and planning. [...]  Right now, I cannot imagine anything more dangerous than JIT applied to energy, natural gas and liquid fuel sources.  [...] It has very little downside and great potential to prevent chaos.

Except that it doesn't have great potential.  I have documented the fact that the oil industry is not, has not, and never has practiced JIT despite repeated accusations.  Even The Oil & Gas Journal issued an apology for having mischaracterized some practices as JIT.  If they actually practiced JIT, we would all be better off for the same reasons that Toyota is kicking the snot out of GM and Ford with it: properly understood and applied, it reduces risk, cost, and quality problems simultaneously.  It's no accident that Toyota jumped to the fore of the hybrid manufacturers and that they are the creator of JIT.

News of the demise of JIT has been greatly exaggerated.  We would all be better off if people learned what JIT is rather than what they think it is.  It is not simply cutting storage.