457 comments on DrumBeat: September 1, 2006
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GAIA Host Collective
You might lose that bet !
Only indirectly is the Danish Gov't behind their remarkable wind industry.
- The Danish Gov't published a survey of in-service performance for various wind turbines. This brought more orders to the good models; and bankruptcy to the poor performers.
- They enacted a carbon tax. An indirect wind subsidy.
- They made it easy (via laws) for a co-op of farmers or city-dwellers + a farmer to buy & operate wind turbines. At one time, almost half of the WTs were owned by these co-ops.
- The national grid was encouraged to take wind power, even when additional lines were required.
Denmark did NOT spend massive amounts on R&D, or have gov't owned WTs. Rather they provided fertile ground for the industry to grow. Quite different from France.But, part of the argument still holds. How does the Danish government know that "Wind is better". Why is it "distorting" market signals to provide "fertile ground"? The Danish government HAS diverted resources from some part of their economy to another place, probably a different one the market would have chosen.
How is subsidizing wind energy different from subsidizing corn ethanol?
What the government (the public) should subsidize in our society is a pretty fundamental expression of our values I suppose. We should ask this question honestly in a broader sense.
We seem to value mobility, in fact we have become dependent on being mobile in order to survive - in this way we are like the nomadic people, except that we return to the same bed every night. Is it possible that we will every come back to seeing the value in living in place, without he need for so much mobility? If that happened, I think then the questions over what the public should subsidize would change quite a bit.
Are we dependent on independence? What a conundrum!
('Conundrum' - this could be Canada's Oil Drum!)
As far as valuing mobility. I don't really dispute that, but it makes me think about how much we seem to strive for 'safe isolation' .. gated communities, soundproof cars, personal entertainment systems, .. there is a lot of great comradery in our culture, too, but I think of the millions of people sitting together or apart, and all watching TV. When I was a little kid, I wasn't allowed to watch TV until my folks realized it was all the other kids in the carpool were talking about, and my brother and I were miserable outsiders..
Well for the direct answer, subsidizing Wind, I contend, is one, wise direction to move our energy resources towards. There is a great return, simple proven technology, and the likelihood of a long future for this abundant resource, without serious downsides like soil depletion, increased water dependency and need for signifigant inputs like NG or Oil to produce it.
From another side, many see the benefits of wind without the helping hand of a gov't grant, so it could be it'll move forward fine without it.. that is, unless it needs it just to Compete with other subsidies like Corn, Ethanol, life-supports for GM and Exxon and the Contras.. See how Amtrak's subsidy could hardly be expected to armwrestle with The Auto Industry's favors, sweetheart deals in Saudi, the Highway system and the Airports..
Who's grant buried Grant in Grant's tomb?
Bob Fiske
Apart from point 4 (The national grid was encouraged to take wind power, even when additional lines were required.) this doesn't look like a subsidy, rather, facilitation of the "market rules" (point 1), removing red tape (point 3) and having a general incentive to carbon free energy (point 2) NOT specifically wind.
And this last may even have covered the costs of point 4 at least in part.
While subsidizing corn ethanol means gobs of money, even more so for subsidizing nuclear.
probably a different one the market would have chosen
Does this means you assume that "the market" choose wisely?
The market actually "choose" SUVs!
In my opinion the important choice is not what alt-energy you fund, but: do you fund just research, or also production?
I'd say fund a broad array of research, but stay out of production funding. That messes up the market and prevents us from knowing what is working.
"The Market", as you refer to this construct anthromorphicly, is composed of advertisers (aka persuaders, mind manipulators). They are the ones who "mess" with our minds and thus determine what "works" in the market place (albeit to a limited extent) and what doesn't. Ultimately, the things that "work" are those that pander to the irrational, child like desires of the masses.
Do I have a solution?
Sorry, no.
That is why I revisit TOD so often.
I keep hoping some of the way smarter people here will offer insights.
But ah, you got an alternative other than central planning?
Did the "free market" build our road network? I always found the case of Thomas Paine Bridge Designer, not revolutionist writer, to be very instructive.
http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/policy/renewableenergy/subsidies/wind/denmark/index.shtml
Unfortunately I could not find a source for the exact amounts envolved but I could guess they are in the billions.
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
And another one:
http://www.countryguardian.net/denmark.htm
However, market mechanisms and Social Democrats don't mix.
Basic supply and demand. It's the same reason that wee-hours off-peak rates are low and afternoon rates are high.
Whereas the current situation is that utilities are selling off very expensive peak power at a loss, and subsidizing it with far higher-than-cost rates on cheap off-peak power, wind power, etc.
If you want people to invest in the infrastructure required to shift demand to periods of surplus (wee-hours or high winds, either way) you have to make it pay for them to do so.
My understanding is that at absolute zero, there's effectively little loss, and the power could be stored indefinitely until needed. This would seem to answer the problem of the erratic nature of wind power generation.
Flavius Aetius
My guess is that this would be work out to be a very expensive way of storing energy.
This is always the problem with energy, there are no lack of clever ideas for storing energy or converting it from one form to another. However, unlike manufactured goods which gain value by having more work done on them energy loses value the more you do to it. This is what makes oil such a miracle fuel. It is has extremely high energy density, it takes very little effort to get it (most of the time), you can carry it and store it in a bucket and you get the energy out by putting a match to it.
Other ideas for storing energy are pumping water uphill to a higher level reservoir and then running that water downhill through a turbine to retrieve the energy. High tech fly wheels can store energy. Splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen so that they can be recombined later in a fuel cell is another. There is also talk of solar power generators in which a large collection of mirrors focus sunlight on an absorber which becomes very hot. This heat is transferred to a pool of molten salt. This pool of salt is used to heat a fluid to drive a turbine and generate electricity. This way the periodic inputs of solar power are converted to electricity available on demand.
We can take it one step further by lisiting the storage techniques more abstractly as:
- Static potential energy (i.e. water behind a dam)
- Kinetic energy (i.e. a flywheel)
- Chemical energy (i.e. combustible hydrocarbons)
- Thermal energy (i.e. molten salt)
- Radioactive decay energy (i.e. U238)
Anyone out there who can think of other generalized forms of energy storage?Click on picture for article on magnetic superconducting storage
For more on energy storage concepts, try here:

And which "homo" did I attack?
and
http://www.energybulletin.net/18286.html
provides with a lot of interesting background about this
I've asked Georg Nehls from the german Bioconsult-SH about this. The company serves for environmental expertise in the coastal environment.
Dr. Nehls told me that the danish wind parks are being installed as scheduled, however he spoke of two, not three.
He supposed the information about cancelling those wind parks was probably "old".
His company did not furnish an opinion about the danish wind parks, btw ..
So- the 'information' on aweo.org seems to be old, at best ..