I'll bet that the Danish government is behind their wind power development.

You might lose that bet !

Only indirectly is the Danish Gov't behind their remarkable wind industry.

  1. The Danish Gov't published a survey of in-service performance for various wind turbines.  This brought more orders to the good models; and bankruptcy to the poor performers.

  2. They enacted a carbon tax.  An indirect wind subsidy.

  3. They made it easy (via laws) for a co-op of farmers or city-dwellers + a farmer to buy & operate wind turbines.  At one time, almost half of the WTs were owned by these co-ops.

  4. The national grid was encouraged to take wind power, even when additional lines were required.

Denmark did NOT spend massive amounts on R&D, or have gov't owned WTs.  Rather they provided fertile ground for the industry to grow.  Quite different from France.
Ok. At least I didn't state that as a fact!

But, part of the argument still holds. How does the Danish government know that "Wind is better". Why is it "distorting" market signals to provide "fertile ground"? The Danish government HAS diverted resources from some part of their economy to another place, probably a different one the market would have chosen.

How is subsidizing wind energy different from subsidizing corn ethanol?

"How is subsidizing wind energy different from subsidizing corn ethanol?"

What the government (the public) should subsidize in our society is a pretty fundamental expression of our values I suppose.  We should ask this question honestly in a broader sense.

We seem to value mobility, in fact we have become dependent on being mobile in order to survive - in this way we are like the nomadic people, except that we return to the same bed every night.  Is it possible that we will every come back to seeing the value in living in place, without he need for so much mobility?  If that happened, I think then the questions over what the public should subsidize would change quite a bit.  

"We seem to value mobility, in fact we have become dependent on being mobile in order to survive - "

Are we dependent on independence?  What a conundrum!

  ('Conundrum' - this could be Canada's Oil Drum!)

As far as valuing mobility.  I don't really dispute that, but it makes me think about how much we seem to strive for 'safe isolation' .. gated communities, soundproof cars, personal entertainment systems, ..  there is a lot of great comradery in our culture, too, but I think of the millions of people sitting together or apart, and all watching TV.  When I was a little kid, I wasn't allowed to watch TV until my folks realized it was all the other kids in the carpool were talking about, and my brother and I were miserable outsiders..

I would change the title to 'Canundrum'.
Guess I didn't see an answer to this one..

Well for the direct answer, subsidizing Wind, I contend, is one, wise direction to move our energy resources towards.  There is a great return, simple proven technology, and the  likelihood of a long future for this abundant resource, without serious downsides like soil depletion, increased water dependency and need for signifigant inputs like NG or Oil to produce it.

From another side, many see the benefits of wind without the helping hand of a gov't grant, so it could be it'll move forward fine without it.. that is, unless it needs it just to Compete with other subsidies like Corn, Ethanol, life-supports for GM and Exxon and the Contras..  See how Amtrak's subsidy could hardly be expected to armwrestle with The Auto Industry's favors, sweetheart deals in Saudi, the Highway system and the Airports..

Who's grant buried Grant in Grant's tomb?

Bob Fiske

How is subsidizing wind energy different from subsidizing corn ethanol?

Apart from point 4 (The national grid was encouraged to take wind power, even when additional lines were required.) this doesn't look like a subsidy, rather, facilitation of the "market rules" (point 1), removing red tape (point 3) and having a general incentive to carbon free energy (point 2) NOT specifically wind.
And this last may even have covered the costs of point 4 at least in part.
While subsidizing corn ethanol means gobs of money, even more so for subsidizing nuclear.

Forgot that:

probably a different one the market would have chosen

Does this means you assume that "the market" choose wisely?
The market actually "choose" SUVs!

How is subsidizing wind energy different from subsidizing corn ethanol?

In my opinion the important choice is not what alt-energy you fund, but: do you fund just research, or also production?

I'd say fund a broad array of research, but stay out of production funding.  That messes up the market and prevents us from knowing what is working.

That messes up the market and prevents us from knowing what is working.

"The Market", as you refer to this construct anthromorphicly, is composed of advertisers (aka persuaders, mind manipulators). They are the ones who "mess" with our minds and thus determine what "works" in the market place (albeit to a limited extent) and what doesn't. Ultimately, the things that "work" are those that pander to the irrational, child like desires of the masses.

Do I have a solution?
Sorry, no.
That is why I revisit TOD so often.
I keep hoping some of the way smarter people here will offer insights.

"The market" contains all that and more.

But ah, you got an alternative other than central planning?

Distributed divine guidance.  :-)
Extra credit: has central planning ever spanned more than a few years without sprouting its own crony network?
A gov. doesn't have to spend massive monies on R&D to be behind something. Nuclear power required gov intervention because of the nature of the power source--dual use for WMD when enriched enough--and the fact that the economics were never right--still aren't--from a "market" perspective.

Did the "free market" build our road network? I always found the case of Thomas Paine Bridge Designer, not revolutionist writer, to be very instructive.

In 1979, Denmark implemented a subsidy equal to 30% of wind turbine investment costs. This spurred much investment and led to the initial deployment of 200-300 machines a year. These subsidies were phased out for wind power in 1989, after they helped increase the reliability and decrease the price of turbines. Until 1999, the government provided direct grants for each kWh turbine owners sold to the grid. Now Denmark has about 15 subsidy programs for both energy production and consumption. The largest subsidy is a production subsidy per kWh for electricity generated from renewable energy resources. The majority of the subsidy schemes "are directed primarily at converting central and electric heating systems to district heathing and to expanding and renovating the existing district heating network" (Renewable Energy Policy Project)

http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/policy/renewableenergy/subsidies/wind/denmark/index.shtml

Unfortunately I could not find a source for the exact amounts envolved but I could guess they are in the billions.

Another interesting article:

http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html

Despite their being cited as the shining example of what can be accomplished with wind power, the Danish government has cancelled plans for three offshore wind farms planned for 2008 and has scheduled the withdrawal of subsidies from existing sites. Development of onshore wind plants in Denmark has effectively stopped. Because Danish companies dominate the wind industry, however, the government is under pressure to continue their support. Spain began withdrawing subsidies in 2002. Germany reduced the tax breaks to wind power, and domestic construction drastically slowed in 2004. Switzerland also is cutting subsidies as too expensive for the lack of significant benefit. The Netherlands decommissioned 90 turbines in 2004. Many Japanese utilities severely limit the amount of wind-generated power they buy, because of the instability they cause. For the same reason, Ireland in December 2003 halted all new wind-power connections to the national grid. In early 2005, they were considering ending state support. In 2005, Spanish utilities began refusing new wind power connections. In 2004, Australia reduced the level of renewable energy that utilities are required to buy, dramatically slowing wind-project applications. On August 31, 2004, Bloomberg News reported that "the unstable flow of wind power in their networks" has forced German utilities to buy more expensive energy, requiring them to raise prices for the consumer.

And another one:

http://www.countryguardian.net/denmark.htm

More specifically, Krogsgaard (2001a) claims that Danish electricity consumers annually pay more than DKK 10 billion (including VAT) in excess of what they would if the country only operated its central power stations, said to be amongst the most modern and least polluting in the world. Other estimates put the annual total Danish climate input cost at DKK 15 billion (From, 2001e). About DKK 2.5 billion of subsidies is paid to private owners of turbines (excluding VAT); and a further very large subsidy is paid to combined heat and power (CHP) plants, many of which (e.g. open field plants) are facing serious economical problems.

If Germany gave the benefits to the consumer via market rates (letting people buy power really cheap when the wind farms were cranking), that "problem" might have solved itself.

However, market mechanisms and Social Democrats don't mix.

What you are talking about is pie in the sky. First there is no infrastructure for demand management anywhere in the world; Second I don't see why do you think that the power will be "really cheap while turbines are cranking". The biggest costs for wind turbines are the fixed costs for construction and maintainance; if utilities are selling (probably much) cheaper if wind is in surplus they will be doing that at loss. Afterwards they will incurr another loss importing electricity when wind is not enough and overall they will still have to raise their base rates to cover these expenses. There is no such thing as free lunch, anywhere.
First there is no infrastructure for demand management anywhere in the world
Then what do you call all the programs to e.g. allow utilities to switch off water heaters and air conditioners at times of peak demand?  I got a leaflet about this in my electric bill last month.
Second I don't see why do you think that the power will be "really cheap while turbines are cranking".
Basic supply and demand.  It's the same reason that wee-hours off-peak rates are low and afternoon rates are high.
if utilities are selling (probably much) cheaper if wind is in surplus they will be doing that at loss.
Whereas the current situation is that utilities are selling off very expensive peak power at a loss, and subsidizing it with far higher-than-cost rates on cheap off-peak power, wind power, etc.

If you want people to invest in the infrastructure required to shift demand to periods of surplus (wee-hours or high winds, either way) you have to make it pay for them to do so.

I am not an engineer but always wondered if a super-conducting coil could store the wind generated electicity?
My understanding is that at absolute zero, there's effectively little loss, and the power could be stored indefinitely until needed.  This would seem to answer the problem of the erratic nature of wind power generation.

Flavius Aetius

The temperature maintenance is a problem.
You are correct about the superconductors, strictly speaking, the energy would be stored in the creation of the magnetic field around the coils.

My guess is that this would be work out to be a very expensive way of storing energy.

This is always the problem with energy, there are no lack of clever ideas for storing energy or converting it from one form to another. However, unlike manufactured goods which gain value by having more work done on them energy loses value the more you do to it. This is what makes oil such a miracle fuel. It is has extremely high energy density, it takes very little effort to get it (most of the time), you can carry it and store it in a bucket and you get the energy out by putting a match to it.

Other ideas for storing energy are pumping water uphill to a higher level reservoir  and then running that water downhill through a turbine to retrieve the energy. High tech fly wheels can store energy. Splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen so that they can be recombined later in a fuel cell is another. There is also talk of solar power generators in which a large collection of mirrors focus sunlight on an absorber which becomes very hot. This heat is transferred to a pool of molten salt. This pool of salt is used to heat a fluid to drive a turbine and generate electricity. This way the periodic inputs of solar power are converted to electricity available on demand.

I was hoping someone else would chime in on your post. You did a very good job of introducing the lay reader to the basics of energy storage.

We can take it one step further by lisiting the storage techniques more abstractly as:

  1. Static potential energy (i.e. water behind a dam)
  2. Kinetic energy (i.e. a flywheel)
  3. Chemical energy (i.e. combustible hydrocarbons)
  4. Thermal energy (i.e. molten salt)
  5. Radioactive decay energy (i.e. U238)

Anyone out there who can think of other generalized forms of energy storage?


Click on picture for article on magnetic superconducting storage

For more on energy storage concepts, try here:

This is a good discussion. Storage solutions are extremely important. We just need to find a cost effective solution, and then get a venture capitalist to fund it. :-)
I should have also included a link to this discussion on PO and its relation to a need for storage subsystems:
Kinetic energy via prayer wheels, just to hedge our bets.
aweo.org obviously is one of these private-run windpower-basher sites that spreads all that FUD (such as those alleged thousands of dead bats under just one turbine - a canard) devised by the hired guns of the heartland institute and the like.
And what do you think you are achieving with ad hominem attacks? Try to confront their main arguments.
FUD is no arguments.

And which "homo" did I attack?

Country Guardian is a rabidly anti-wind site (they want to "protect" scenic country vistas in England from the descrerations of wind turbines).  They earlier posted some bird kill stats that were simple false.  Having caught them once in a self serving lie; I do not bother reading any new claims of theirs.  A "zero crediability" source IMO.
http://www.energybulletin.net/18290.html
and
http://www.energybulletin.net/18286.html

provides with a lot of interesting background about this

the Danish government has cancelled plans for three offshore wind farms planned for 2008 and has scheduled the withdrawal of subsidies from existing sites.

I've asked Georg Nehls from the german Bioconsult-SH about this. The company serves for environmental expertise in the coastal environment.
Dr. Nehls told me that the danish wind parks are being installed as scheduled, however he spoke of two, not three.
He supposed the information about cancelling those wind parks was probably "old".
His company did not furnish an opinion about the danish wind parks, btw ..

So- the 'information' on aweo.org seems to be old, at best ..