<St Louis Renewable Energy Conference - Day 2The Oil DrumHYDROGEN - grease to the elbow of Scottish power?>
<DrumBeat: October 14, 2006DrumBeatDrumBeat: October 16, 2006>

157 comments on DrumBeat: October 15, 2006

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

Substrate on October 15, 2006 - 8:29am Permalink | Subthread | Comments top
Has anyone noticed any Chinese people here?  If they're here they haven't been obvious.  I just got to wondering if this is a restricted site for them.  For that matter, Indians, Pakistani...?  Is there any way to set up a poll to figure out the country of origin of all the TOD members?
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Leanan on October 15, 2006 - 8:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The Chinese people I've noticed have been spammers.

At least, I assume they are Chinese, from the character sets they post in.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
mh497 on October 15, 2006 - 9:47am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The Chinese are very restrictive on Internet access.  Because of the free nature of the comments here, this site is probably on the censored list.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Virtual Ipecac on October 15, 2006 - 10:22am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
How about some Chinese outside of China just to get an insider's perspective on energy-related events in that country?
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Leanan on October 15, 2006 - 10:51am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
There was a guy like that who occasionally posted at PeakOil.com.  He chimed in during one "dieoff" conversation, and said China in the past had suffered repeated severe dieoffs in the days before fossil fuels.  I get the feeling that China in general is very aware of food and population issues.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Johnny Buffalkill on October 15, 2006 - 11:35am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I work in the biotech industry, which has really heavy Chinese representation, so I know quite a few people from China, most of whom are highly educated (Master's or PhDs), and my experience is that they are no more peak oil aware than Americans.  To be fair, my aquaintances might be a skewed group though.  In the biotech industry, it is almost heresy to think that biotechnology can't completely replace petroleum.  Also, being educated, many of these people have probably been a bit sheltered from some of the hardships common in China, and sheltering seems to numb vigilance.  But still, I have yet to meet a Chinese person who has any concern about energy depletion.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Virtual Ipecac on October 15, 2006 - 11:56am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I do hope that biotech can help with the transition to other fuels.  I know there are some great minds at work in that industry.

I knew some Chinese students in graduate school and even though they were over here, they were very guarded in their conversations that could any way be misconstrued as critical of the Chinese governement.  I believe they felt like they were monitored over here and it was not safe to speak freely.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Bitteroldcoot on October 15, 2006 - 1:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I've had similar experiences.  They are afraid of saying anything political.

I knew a guy in grad school who actually lived thought the cultural revolution.  I managed to get him talking about it one day.   Evidently it was a pretty horrible experience, he could look me in they eye and his voice kept trembling.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Franz on October 15, 2006 - 8:05pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Perhaps you only think they were afraid of saying anything political. Maybe they just didn't give a stuff.

I recently spoke to a Chinese academic from Beijing while she was on a visit to Hong Kong. I kept away from politcal topics, thinking the way you do. But then she just brought up the Tiananmen Massacre herself, as she was within earshot of it at the time that it happened. She talked about it for a while and then she said that times had changed, and that the current generation of Chinese students had little political consciousness and were only interested in material advancement.

Maybe you are not seeing fear when you talk politics with your Chinese associates: you are seeing ignorance. The 'fear' shows up because they are scared of appearing dumb by having nothing of interest to use in their reply to what you say.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
geewiz on October 16, 2006 - 1:12am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
scary! was it not Pol Pot in Cambodia who wanted to keep the people ignorant?
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
fleam on October 16, 2006 - 2:56am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Pol Pot distrusted anyone who was "learned" - he wanted to create a new society from the ground up, wanted some real clean slates to start with. That meant the young and the dumb. If you had the little marks on your nose from wearing glasses, look out! If you were studying to get a job with the Post Office, don't tell the authorities that, tell them you've always moved trash cans for a living. Co-workers who'd been in Pol Pot's camps told me these last things.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Franz on October 16, 2006 - 9:51am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Okay, call me irony-challenged, but what I meant was that (even educated) people in so-called 'totalitarian' (worthless term) states can be genuinely ignorant of or uninterested in certain issues without that being directly the fault or even the intention of 'Big Brother' ... the same goes for people in the 'free world' (pffft) too, and to the same extent. Most people don't know or care about big issues because they have other things to attend to. Or as the great critic John Berger put it, 'Capitalism survives by compelling ordinary people, whom it exploits, to construe their own interests as narrowly as possible.'(And China is capitalist, all misconceptions to the contrary. They have Hooters in Shanghai, for heaven's sake). True, it is 'scary', but it's the market that's done it, not the CCP.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
ThatsItImout on October 16, 2006 - 4:20am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"The 'fear' shows up because they are scared of appearing dumb by having nothing of interest to use in their reply to what you say."

Someone please tell them that "appearing dumb" has never stopped any of us here!  :-)

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
mh497 on October 16, 2006 - 5:44pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Nope, it's actually fear.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
earldaily on October 15, 2006 - 10:45am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I went treking thru china two years ago and had no trouble getting onto this site. in fact i noticed no censorship at all. I have however noticed censorship in south america.fwiw
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Leanan on October 15, 2006 - 10:53am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I was in China a few years ago, and I did notice censorship.  However, it was only of large sites.  For example, CNN.com was blocked.  But many other smaller sites, with content that would likely be blocked in a U.S. library, were not blocked in China.  
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Bitteroldcoot on October 15, 2006 - 11:25am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think a distinction needs to be made between blocking a site, and monitoring who uses unblocked sites, then paying them a visit.  Sometimes it is more useful to keep the population afraid of looking for knowledge than actually blocking the knowledge.

As a western visitors you can access anything you want, but the Chinese government probably was monitoring your activity.  If you were a Chinese citizen, your activity might win you a knock on the door.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
earldaily on October 15, 2006 - 11:35am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
we do live in interesting times
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Leanan on October 15, 2006 - 2:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I suspect it's not as easy to monitor people as to block sites.  Many Chinese access the net through public computers (which is what I did).  You pay per hour.  Cash.  

Would it be possible to track down who was using which computer when?  Possibly, but it wouldn't be easy.  At least when I was there, they didn't really take note of which computer you used.  It would be like trying to keep track of which kid used which video game at an arcade here.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Bitteroldcoot on October 15, 2006 - 2:27pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
You've peaked my curiosity about the process you went through to get access to the machine.

Did you pay with cash or credit card?
Did they scan your card and assign you a machine or password?
Also was this an establishment that catered to tourists or locals?
What year were you there?

Evidently they did a crackdown in 2002.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2608305.stm

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Bitteroldcoot on October 15, 2006 - 3:58pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Oops! You said cash already. My mistake.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Halfin on October 16, 2006 - 2:28am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I went treking thru china two years ago and had no trouble getting onto this site.

When do you think this site started? TOD began in March, 2005, right? And not many people were reading it for the first few months.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Franz on October 15, 2006 - 7:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
If you are interested in Peak Oil awareness amongst Chinese people, particularly those on the Mainland, then the thing to do is to search Web articles in Chinese. Does anyone here want to discuss an idea in what is often an arduous second language? No, and Chinese people don't want to either.

I have seen at least one article claiming to be on Peak Oil that was written in Simplified Chinese, although weirdly enough it seemed to orginate from New Zealand, not China.

As for the awareness of 'educated' people, it is important to remember that much of 'education' is simply advanced but narrow technical training coupled with indoctrination of various sorts. Any person who is successfully educated to high levels has already learnt very strong lessons in conformity. These tendencies are further reinforced by material or career success, and the cognitive dissonance then kicks in: 'Everything's great! What Peak Oil?'

I also think there is some level of paranoia shown here about the power and interests of the Chinese government. The PRC gov wants to thump workers, Tibet independence advocates, and Falun Gung members. They are not going to waste state security resources on people chatting in general terms about a geological fact of life.

I am writing this from Hong Kong. I've never met anyone Chinese in HK who has heard of PO. Though the politics and legal framwork differ, it is important to remember that HK and China are in many ways very similar: indeed, China is HK on speed. The indifference or ignorance re PO is due to mundane factors: the overwhelming energy devoted to career, to 'study', to shopping, and to one's personal and familial relationships (and in exactly that order). There is nothing left after that. Who cares? You're sitting in the restaurant mouthing off to your mates, you've scraped through on some exam or just scored a promotion, you've bought a new mobile phone or digital camera, you've come good on the ponies, your wife hasn't found out about your girlfriend yet. That's life. That takes your energy. Any thought you have left goes on the rubbish in the tabloids.

This is the simplest explanation for the lack of mention given to PO, at least where I live, a place culturally similar to China (except that China is actually more extreme). We don't need to worry about shadowy state bogeymen. They're not in the picture on this.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
andyh on October 16, 2006 - 12:34am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
No sign of any slow down in Chinese growth (and oil demand) anytim soon:

http://www.advfn.com/news_China-GDP-seen-rising-by-10-5-pct-in-2006-9-5-pct-in-2007-govt-think-tank_ 17246844.html

However if the US economy does take the expected hit from the housing implosion this may of course change.......

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Substrate on October 16, 2006 - 8:32am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
"If you are interested in Peak Oil awareness amongst Chinese people, particularly those on the Mainland, then the thing to do is to search Web articles in Chinese. Does anyone here want to discuss an idea in what is often an arduous second language? No, and Chinese people don't want to either."

All of the (mainland) Chinese people I've met have been decent english writers, and could understand pretty much anything written (except for slang).  They're very awkward speaking it, however.  From what they've told me, reading and writing english is taught in school, but not how to speak it.

"As for the awareness of 'educated' people, it is important to remember that much of 'education' is simply advanced but narrow technical training coupled with indoctrination of various sorts. Any person who is successfully educated to high levels has already learnt very strong lessons in conformity. These tendencies are further reinforced by material or career success, and the cognitive dissonance then kicks in: 'Everything's great! What Peak Oil?'"

Definitely a problem with the education system in general.  Jump through the hoops and get your piece of paper.

"They are not going to waste state security resources on people chatting in general terms about a geological fact of life."

The Oil Drum: Discussions About Energy and Our Future.  We do a bit of philosophy around here too.

"I am writing this from Hong Kong. I've never met anyone Chinese in HK who has heard of PO."

Have you been asking around?  I know I don't openly go about blabbing to every person I meet that we're about to have our nuts in a vise.  They don't take kindly to it.

"...That's life. That takes your energy. Any thought you have left goes on the rubbish in the tabloids."

A lot of my PO aware friends say things like this.  By the end of the day after 8 hours of working their shitty jobs they just want to relax and don't want to think about PO.  Others I believe have "put up a shield" of conucopianism and believe technology will come along and whiz-bang everything.  It's kind of an escape.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.