Two articles not above....first from Forbes which spells out the reality that people are fickle and IRRATIONAL at best.

http://www.forbes.com/home/business/2006/10/26/autos-fuel-savings-cupholders-biz-cx_jf_1027fuel.html

It's again more important to be able to drive with a big gulp than to drive a little gulper, apparently. Just a few weeks into falling gas prices, new vehicle shoppers have ranked "overall fuel economy" No. 21 among attributes they most care about, two spots behind cup holders, according to a survey by CNW Marketing Research of Bandon, Ore.

How short Americans' memories are. In early August, regular gasoline averaged exactly $3 per gallon nationwide, according to the Department of Energy, and things looked dire. By mid-October, gas had fallen 26%, to $2.19 per gallon.

Whew. Time for that Hummer again.

Now this one irritated the hell out of me....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15428994/

WASHINGTON - Freed from the burden of potentially moving financial markets worldwide with his every utterance, Alan Greenspan cut loose on the economy, the Iraq war, construction of a fence along the U.S.-Mexico border and a host of other topics.

Asked about the state of the economy, Greenspan declared: "Well, actually it's not bad. We've gone through a very weak patch in the summer," mostly reflecting the housing slump and less inventory building by companies, he said.

He didn't elaborate, but he suggested the war is not having a noticeable effect on the economy. "It is just not evident. You don't see it in the marketplace in any real way."

"If you get beyond the political rhetoric" and assembled a group to solve Social Security, "it would take them 15 minutes. It would take them 15 minutes only because 10 minutes was used for pleasantries," he quipped. The audience -- people attending the Commercial Finance Association meeting -- erupted in laughter.

He also discussed the shrinking importance of manufacturing to the country's economic might. "Manufacturing is something we were terrific at 50 years ago," Greenspan said, adding that it "is essentially a 19th and 20th century technology."

Where do I begin?  So the economy is not that bad?  It was a weak patch only huh?  Does these people just buy this bullshit?  Then to say that the Iraq war has not disturbed the markets is a plain lie.  Why is government spending the highest proportion of current GDP output ever?  So the quarter trillion or so a year doesn't affect the markets at all,  Alan Pass that to me b/c I need some.

Can anyone tell me why social security isn't an issue?  It would take 15 minutes huh?  SO you would just dissolve it then because that's all that can be accomplished in the 5 minutes you've allowed.  You realize why our manufacturing is no longer here when bankers are ever eager to export the heavy lifting to every other country.

Greenspan is a bozo.

Someone once stated when asked about politics and the prez.
"they don't run this country,Greenspan runs this country"

He needs to hie himself to a nursying home and spread his homilies elsewhere. Again the man is an utter fool. Why has anyone put up with the asshole for all this time?

Greenspan is not a bozo.  He is an accomplished liar and manipulator who was an remains a world class power monger.
Re: manufacturing out of style.

Indeed, what is it that America does these days?  New industries, such as Google, print ads to sell services and cheap goods.  Are all these services just a sham economy?  Not really producing each other, but feeling like we are because we are getting paid?

According to the Sprott article above: "US money supply, as measured by the most recent reading of the now defunct M3 (may it rest in peace), is up at least 50% so far this decade, and likely even more if it were still being reported."

Since the # of USD has increased 50% since 2000, should not the Dow be up 50% since 2000?

I wish there was a TOD for economics.  It is quite difficult for the layman, such as myself, to figure out what is going on.

Since the # of USD has increased 50% since 2000, should not the Dow be up 50% since 2000?

NO, there is no logical reason why this should be so. The stock market, (usually measured by the S&P 500, not the Dow), is not directly connected to the money supply. Though of course there is an indirect connection. An increasing money supply usually means an increasing economy, causing the market to rise. But one does not necessarily track the other and there is no logical reason why they should.

However if inflation went up by 50% in a given time, then in order for the average shareholder to stay even, the S&P 500 would have to have increased by 50% also. Still there is also no logical reason why this should actually be the case. The market usually outpaces the inflation rate, but often they go in the opposite direction.

Ron Patterson

excess dollars chasing overpriced equities     not a direct effect of excess money in the system ?  look at the p/e ratios man  
Elwoodelmore, no one said one damn thing about excess dollars chasing overpriced equities. An increase in money supply does not necessarly mean excess dollars. The money supply increases because people borrow more money. Banks lending more money is what causes an increase in money supply. You can have an increase in money supply without any inflation whatsoever, and without any overpriced overpriced equities whatsoever.

None of this has anything to do with p/e ratioes.

Please pay closer attention to what the thread is actually talking about before commenting.

Ron Patterson

then what is your explaination of excess p/e ratios ?
Well I could give you a short lesson on why some stocks have very low p/e ratios and some have have high p/e ratios, and why they sometimes get very high. But since this original thread had absolutely nothing to do with p/e ratios, you were the only one to bring it up, I see no need to discuss p/e ratios any further.

But if you have any question or comments about peak oil or related subjects, then let us hear them.

Ron Patterson

ok agreed   just dont say anything stupid in the future  
how long have you been a member of the bernanke fan club ?
I would visit some of these on a daily basis.

http://www.prudentbear.com/

http://www.safehaven.com/

http://www.financialsense.com/

http://www.321gold.com/archives/archives_date.php

If you visit these and just reading articles,  you WILL be filled in on the things mentioned above and more.

For some REAL stats on the economy:
http://www.shadowstats.com/cgi-bin/sgs?

For example;
Read the lastest one from Jim Willie.

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/willie/2006/1025.html

One last one,  Look at the charts at this link.

http://www.prudentbear.com/bc_chart_library.html

Follow those for a while, and you have your TOD for financials.

Good links, I read 321gold on a daily basis, Jim Willie is one of the better writers, Peter Schiff is good too as well as Mish (check out his site as well)
Monetary inflation is like pouring water into a bowl that overflows somewhere.  The Fed can control how much it prints, but it control where the money is going to flow to.  All the extra dollars flow around searching for a home.  In the late 90's it was internet stocks.  Most recently it was housing.  Most people are predicting the next stop is hard assets (gold and commodities).

This is why you can not say that there is a one-to-one relationship between every dollar printed and an equal gain in the S&P 500.  

Not quite TOD - but this site does have some good econ data:

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/

 In a statement before congress a couple years ago which I do not have a link for, Greenspan said Social Security benefits can be gauranteed. He then said, however, the value of the dollar those benefits are paid in can not be guaranteed.
 That's his solution..everyone will get their $1,000 a month,,but the dollar will be so devalued a loaf of bread will cost $50.
I think "the threat" they are preparing for is the Iranian Response to the destruction of their Bomb Making facilities.    
Like I've said many times before...good thing we have THREE US Strike Groups in the area.

My question is this.  How did we know to have them there and waiting close by so early on?  It takes time to get them over there.

"How did we know"

Simple. Surveillance. Electronic and otherwise plus likely a lot of humint via Israel.

Special ops, Seals, Delta, the list goes on and on and I thank God that they do exist.

I don't wish to see a loose nuke spoil the upcoming energy crisis. A controlled dieoff is much better than being nuked.

Yet they seem determined and listening to the rabid doves in the US they must think we will do nothing. Suddenly ALL those cheesy little flags would come out again and everyone would start tying those ridiculous ribbons on trees again.

How soon we forget. They brought the fight here.

I was all for taking it to them...if only Bush had a good plan and executed it wisely. Instead he wasted all his political capital and the support of the people. Pissed it all away. Then it got all mired down.

Now the outcome is very clouded. The insurgents and terrroists are emboldened. Now they have nukes,,,almost.

Surely Bush won't wait until its far too late. Surely a surgical strike ....well its said to be too late for that now.

So what comes next? Thermonuclear warfare? Or the Samson Option/Scenario?

airdale--"Do you want to play a game?"(War Games..1983)

I can say that the 67 years of my life have not been especially dull. WWII,Korea,Berlin Crisis,Cold War,Nam,Desert Storm/Shield,9/11,Afghanistan,Iraq and now...

How soon we forget. They brought the fight here.

Sorry I fail to the see the connection between overthrowing Saddam Hussein and the Saudi's flying into the WTC?

I was all for taking it to them...if only Bush had a good plan and executed it wisely. Instead he wasted all his political capital and the support of the people. Pissed it all away. Then it got all mired down.

Is there one example, in the history of the world, when one nation, uh I mean a coalition of countries, declared war on another nation, weak and stripped of its military, with the worlds most precious resource at stake, in order to install democracy, which in turn would end the terrorist threat.

Thats a plan?  

I have not seen good, hard evidence that there was any country behind the WTC attacks.  There were some individuals that were born in certain countries working for Al Qaida.  It was a group of extremists that attacked us.  The leader, of which, is still at large.
The airplanes were apparently marked as being of American origin.

We don't know for sure who, if any person, was controling their flight path; or what was loaded in the cargo bays of those planes.

Now there's a fellow named GWB who tells us it was Al Quaeda flying those planes. Of course, he's the same person who swore that Sadam had WMDs and that he was a uniter not a divider. So if you want to go by his say so, then please, by all means go ahead.

BTW. He never said "Stay the Course".
He said, "Stake the Horse".
You simply misunder-herd him. :-)

(P.S. Letterman & O'Riley were in agreement tonight on Iraq: It's the oil stupid --and it always was.)

Just a few weeks into falling gas prices, new vehicle shoppers have ranked "overall fuel economy" No. 21 among attributes they most care about, two spots behind cup holders...
Just a hypothesis: could this simply be a different group of people looking to buy cars? When oil was high you probably had a lot of poorer folks scrambling to balance their budgets by getting a smaller car; now you have the more affluent ones taking advantage of desperation deals on SUVs introduced by dealers when oil was high.

It would seem to me a more probable explanation than the same middle class crowd changing their opinions so quickly (though that is definitely a factor as well).

I think it is the same middle class crowd with the same middle class brains making the same middle class mistakes again.  They are Herd, hear the roar.

These are the same middle class people that Alan "The Shark" Greenspan recruited for Financial Cannon Fodder to inflate the housing bubble after his stock market bubble collapsed. Long live Alan "the Shark" Greenspan... in shackles in some small town public square.

Tate, I believe that Medicare is the bigger immediate problem than Social Security.  I read the numbers a couple of months ago. Medicare's funding needs more immediate attention that Social Security does. I'm sorry I don't have a link to give you for that information.

this doesn't mean that SS doesn't need fixing, too.

It's not just Medicare, it's the whole US "medical care" system.  If its price keeps growing exponentially far faster than inflation, then in a decade or two it will use the whole US GDP.  Obviously the whole sorry edifice will collapse before then.  Either only the rich will get medical care, or we'll devise a new system.  Hint: more public (tax payers') money is spent, per capita, on medical care in the USA, under the current mostly-private system, than the whole (public and private) amount spent on medical care, per capita, in any other country (except Switzerland).  Meanwhile, the public health results in the USA are comparable to those in Cuba.

So what are you suggesting?  We move to a system like Canada, where they diagnos you with Cancer, and then schedule you for treatments in 6 months when you'll be dead?
care to provide proof for that accusation?
Who cares? American healthcare fails to produce outcomes.Have all the CAT scans you want, you'll live longer in a civilized country.
As I understand it, starting next year the Medicare premium (part B) will become a tiered system such that  beneficiaries with higher incomes will pay higher premiums.  The current schedule calls for a steady increase in these premiums over the next several years with higher incomes realizing the highest percentage increases.

I see this a the first step towards Medicare becoming strictly needs based, and likely the same for SS.

When I took a public health course on the U.S. health care system 4 years ago, I recall that we were told that the law as written for Medicare was that beneficaries were responsible for 25% of the total cost and the remaining 75% percent came from general funding.  I assume that when the Medicare prescription program was rammed through congress it was done with the understanding that Medicare was going to be completely restructured.

If your not familiar with Medicare, the premium I am referring to is part B which includes basic outpatient services.  Part A is the hospitalization portion and there is no charge for beneficiaries, Part C is the supplemental insurance and the fees vary greatly depending on whether an HMO or PPO is selected, Part D is the new drug prescription program (a gift for Big Pharma and taxpayer fleecing operation).  

Let's see: from an economist's perspective, looking at the economy as a whole, the economy continues to do well.  The view from the top is different from the view on the ground.  

Again, from a bird's-eye view, the Iraq war has resulted in additional government spending that other countries have financed without question.  He isn't saying it won't have some effect in the future, but as long as China, etc. are willing to buy US government debt, there isn't likely to be much effect on the economy directly from the war.  When they stop being willing to buy government debt, interest rates will rise and the dollar will fall, and this will have an effect on the economy, though economists will say it's the overall debt that's the problem more than any particular spending.  It will take some economic historians to piece out the war and its contribution to the economic problems.  

He didn't really say Social Security isn't an issue either.  He said that if it weren't for politics, it would be easy to fix.  You can read this two ways.  If the assembled group were the usual elites, they would spend their 5 useful minutes cutting benefits.  If the assembled group were representative of the population, they would spend their 5 useful minutes soaking the rich.  The politicians try to represent both at once and reach a stalemate.

The manufacturing comment sounds like a BS rationalization to me, but if you believe that the world will eventually accept US services in exchange for foreign manufactured goods, this would make sense.  I think of things like software and medicines as manufactured goods, but economists classify these new technology things as services, so in that context his comment would make sense if we didn't have a tremendous trade imbalance.  

Can anyone tell me why social security isn't an issue?  It would take 15 minutes huh?

Raise the cap on wages subject to the SS tax so that 90% of total wages are subject to the tax, the same fraction that was covered in 1983 when the current cap system was put into place, and require that the cap rise or fall as needed to maintain that coverage. Add a modest means test that affects only those with more than $75K of income (in today's dollars) outside of SS. For forecasts -- since the "issue" is all about forecasts -- use values for the model parameters chosen for reasons of maximum liklihood, rather than the odd set of constraints that the SS administration is required to impose. The forecasts then show the trust fund stabilizing in positive territory. Problem fixed, 15 minutes.

OTOH, this shifts the "issue" to the federal general fund -- which will, first, have to learn to live without the SS surpluses, and second, pay back, with interest, at least a portion of the trillions of dollars of SS surpluses that it has borrowed and spent already.