Search The Oil Drum with Google
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Local
- Streets: Utilitarian Corridors or Livable Public Space
- Summer Streets a Success!
- Plan for Hydro-Fracture Drilling for Unconventional Natural Gas in Upstate New York
TOD:Europe
- Oilwatch Monthly - November 2008
- The 2008 IEA WEO - Production Decline Rates
- The EU Strategic Energy Review: maybe not so depressing after all
TOD:Canada
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
- Oil Megaproject Update (July 2008)
TOD:ANZ
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
“If kindness and comfort are, as I suspect, the results of an energy surplus, then, as the supply contracts, we could be expected to start fighting once again like cats in a sack.”
—George Monbiot
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Prof. Goose, Heading Out, Stuart Staniford, Nate Hagens
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Gail the Actuary, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Khebab, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Local: Glenn
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.





GAIA Host Collective
Just what are the external costs of fossil fuels? I've read that a $35/ton fossil carbon tax would cover it. What does that work out to per kwh or gallon of gasoline? If gasoline were pure carbon that would come to only 14c/gal. Not much of a deterrent.
See this great site by the EU: ExternE where you can find this report External Costs - Research results on socio-environmental damages due to electricity and transport (pdf) with this graph for power production:
In the context of current discussions of global warming, this chart completely baffles me. This thread will be stale long before a detailed analysis could be done, but the problem readily manifests itself on the back of an envelope.
For coal, the externalities shown add up to 3.5 € cents per kwh of electricity from coal. For a power plant efficiency of, say, 40%, that's 1.4 € cents per kwh of heat energy from coal. Since there is no column for oil products, let's just apply that directly to gasoline. A U.S. gallon of gasoline produces around 40kwh of heat energy, or, using the coal number as possibly an overestimate since coal is usually considered "dirtier", externalities of 56 € cents per gallon. That is about 70 U.S. cents per gallon depending on the exchange rate. And less than half of that owes to global warming.
Now, a gasoline or carbon tax that raised 70 U.S. cents per gallon of gasoline (or diesel) would not change behavior much - that much is already proven beyond doubt. The 33 cents or so for global warming would change it even less.
So here's my problem:
Many here, and perhaps you, yourself, have advocated hugely expensive increases in mass transit. But, at a guess, I'd say it costs an extra hour or two per work-day to use mass transit (unless one both lives and works in Manhattan, downtown Chicago or San Francisco, or some other well-served ultra-dense city core), and with an average car it might save a gallon or even a gallon-and-a-half of gasoline or diesel, much less with a Prius. (I'm not concerning myself with Hummer or Escalade drivers here, if they can't afford the fuel they couldn't afford the vehicle in the first place. Also note, in most places in the U.S., mass transit is creepy-crawly buses averaging maybe 7mph/11kph with stops - the odds that one of the few rail lines can take you where you need to go are risibly slim.)
These figures suggest that taking the advocacy at face value, people "ought" to value a gallon or so of gasoline or diesel as equivalent to an hour or two of their time. (I'm not concerning myself with ultra-long exurban commutes either - they are hyped but are still atypical.) That works out to US$15 to US$30 per gallon, using an average wage of about $15 in this country. Most of this huge number must be externalities, since the underlying price (ex taxes) right now is somewhere around US$1.70, and was under $3 even at the 2005 peak.
This discrepancy between the chart and the strident recommendation to expand mass transit is just astounding, a factor on the order of 30. Based on the chart, for example, it is apparently not worth doing very much to prevent global warming, which only accounts for 35 US cents per gallon. After all, carbon tax of that magnitude would impact hardly anything substantially, except perhaps for aluminum smelting, except that much of that, IIRC, is still done with non-grid hydro power.
So we have all this chatter about radical, time-consuming or expensive behavior modifications - buses, bicycles, working far below one's economic potential, etc. So what is going on? How do I reconcile this sort of panic with the numbers in the chart, which would be no obstacle at all to unlimited coal-to-liquids?
WTF?
Why does wind have a noise cost? They can only be heard within a few hundred meters anyway. Are they trying to say that all the other plants are silent within a few hundred yards? Turbine noise? Noise from coal trains?
Why are renewable power options held to impossibly high standards? Also, does anyone else feel that the health costs might be a bit off? How exactly does wind have the same health cost as coal? WTF. The EPA recommends that children and pregnant women severely restrict the amount of fish that they eat because of the methylmercury possibly contained within them. This mercury pollution can be traced back to coal emissions. How is this not an enormous cost?
Perhaps these problems magically do not exist in Germany.
The 'social cost' of carbon has been variously estimated at between $30 and $300/ tonne of carbon
($100/tonne of carbon = $28/tonne of CO2 emitted ie 1 tonne carbon= 3.667 tonnes CO2 emission)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_10_06_exec_sum.pdf
page xvi $85/tonne CO2
There is a huge debate about what the right level is-- Nordhaus on the conservative (low) side and Stern on the high side. Stern wrote the Climate Change Review for the UK treasury which has just been published.
There may be other costs associated with burning oil, such as:
- National Security costs - costs of the US of securing its supply line to the Persian Gulf and involvement in countries there
- societal costs (eg less exercise) etc.
These are not reflected in the pure CO2 numbers above, which apply to global warming.
I don't have the formulas to work those out in terms of oil, gas and coal. One of those things on the 'to do' list.
As I have argued elsewhere, a gasoline tax is a poor way of fighting global warming. Gasoline is highly price inelastic.
By contrast, a carbon tax in the electricity sector could have big impacts, because there are plenty of low carbon substitutes out there (nuclear, wind, conservation etc.), but coal is just massively cheaper, if the CO2 is untaxed.