275 comments on Predicting the Past: The Hubbert Linearization
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As I noted in a separate post to robert, I see mexico as a better example for sa than texas. In addition to what I said there that, to me, shows sa/mexico to be more like each other than texas:
high tech simultaneous secondary and primary production
ultimate resort to high tech horizontals
each country has an old super giant field that dominates, rapid loss of which results in unavoidable peak
there is a further point, also different from texas, that is both are gov run and are, compared with what would have been done had they been exploited by private companies, starved of investment.
For all of these reasons, comparing the HL plots of sa/mexico may be informative. Can you resurrect and post the two?
And, I have a separate question; does the data suggest that the 'dog leg' up following a stable regime is predictive, not of higher Qt but, rather, that peak is nigh?
Thanks
We saw small deflections in the Texas and Lower 48 plots, right before the they peaked, much like the small deflections in the Saudi and world plots, right before they (IMO) peaked.
WT do you have the OIP numbers for Texas and can you give me
the % recovery factors based on the HL analysis ?
Thats the plot we need.
Mike, the problem with using recovery factors based on Texas is that we gutted many of our early-discovered giant fields with overproduction.
Secondary and tertiary production and Maximum Efficient Rate (of recovery) were all invented by my homies in the oil patch around here. As a consequence the is a recovery factor of the oil in place of about 1/3rd, while the mid-east and North Sea are getting about 50% of the original oil in place.
The Bureau of Economic Geology at the University of Texas should have the exzact figures you are looking for.
Right I forgot about this. We really damaged our fields early on. In a sense its a blessing since fixing the damage is probably what keep us going. I don't think Texas by itself is all that useful as a model past a certain point because of this.
For all of these reasons, comparing the HL plots of sa/mexico may be informative. Can you resurrect and post the two?
And, I have a separate question; does the data suggest that the 'dog leg' up following a stable regime is predictive, not of higher Qt but, rather, that peak is nigh?
Mexico did the dogleg up in 1995 resulting in a new stable regime with a Qt roughly twice what the previous data was pointing to, see my post from two month's ago:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2149#comment-144998
Thanks for the link. SO, mexico's HL is not a good predictor for sa, or at least not if sa has peaked.
Mexico, sa, kuwait, maybe china remain special cases with a super giant that dominates overall production; for each of these, the question is, when will the super giant go down? HL is probably silent on this issue. Ghawar and cantarell were produced with the latest high tech, meaning that the decline, when it comes, will dominate production and almost certainly signal that peak is here. We know about cantarell and mexico, daqing and china, burghan and, probably, kuwait. Ghawar remains veiled because of sa stonewalling, but precipitous decline would neatly explain sa production profile over the past year.
The early HL plot for Mexico showed a P/Q intercept of about 13%. While it is not impossible, 13% is unlikely.
Compare it to the P/Q intercepts on the four HL plots I have shown above.
Yet another example of a region: (1) Declining and (2) As predicted (by Khebab in this case).
Let's see, what's the score so far?
Notice a developing trend here?
Notice the escalating attacks as the reality of a near term peak becomes more apparent?
Notice the escalating attacks as the reality of a near term peak becomes more apparent?
You are taking this far too personally. I am not attacking you. I am pointing out that in the case of Texas - which you have indicated is reflective of Saudi - the HL performed very poorly at the time of peak. So, I am pointing out that we can't then have much confidence in using the HL to predict Saudi's peak. In turn you have resorted to "Who's right!" Come on.
You would have been right had you predicted Texas peak in 1956. You would have been right for 12 years. But you would have ultimately been wrong because you used a tool that is not very reliable for what you are trying to use it for.
On the other hand I think Stuart's work was very interesting, and this is by no means an answer to his posts. I still don't think the world has peaked, but the HL gives me absolutely no useful information one way or the other. The kind of analysis Stuart did gave me more to think about though.
So, one of us predicts the peak, and he is so far right, but you criticize the work, even as the Lower 48, Saudi Arabia, Mexico and the world are declining as predicted, based on Hubbert/HL models, and as the North Sea is following the HL model.
The other one observes that Saudi Arabia has peaked, and his work is more valid?
(BTW, Stuart posted an article last year, to the effect that we were probably at or past world crude oil production).
Somehow, I get the feeling that you are getting ready for the following admission:
"Saudi Arabia has probably peaked, but by God, Jeffrey's methodology was wrong."
Cut to new Titanic Scene:
Jeffery the problem is everyone that has confidence in HL has paired it with other data to develop that confidence and its not just QT.
In the case of KSA its the fact that
1.) HL is showing a peak about now.
2.) They are out of easy oil look at how they are drilling now and what they are producing.
3.) Ghawar has a rising water cut and is in decline.
They peaked.
You only need HL plus some other information and you can pick the right HL plot with almost 100% confidence.
I assert you need no more information.
WT
I'm just curious why the vehement tone in the responses to RR? It is possible to come up with the right answers using a wrong methodology. I keep reading the exchange between you and RR and I really don't get the impression that he thinks your answer is either right or wrong, but rather he has taken you to task about the path you took to arrive at your conclusion.
Ultimately you can argue that you are right in that dependence on fossil fuels needs to end ASAP, and the difference between now or 5 years from now or 50 years from now will in the grand scheme of things be a trivial detail.
Given the evidence I too think we are pass/at peak, but I understand from an academic point of view why models should be tested, analyzed and refined, and from what I read that is what RR appears to be doing.
You however seem fixated on being right, just for the sake of being right. Perhaps it is just a personal thing, but I like to be right including as to why I was right. And in RRs case I think he wants to be right down to the details in his methodology because he has the fear that crying wolf too early could cause resistance to a Peak Oil warning if this turns out to be a false Peak.
The media constantly bombards those "Peak Oil Nuts" as being whacks because from the beginning of oil there have been those claiming it will end tomorrow. Given the climate surrounding Oil and the competiveness surrounding this commodity today, this type of debtate takes on even more importance. RR has stated previously that his big fear is in crying Peak too early and giving ammunition to the opposing side which will in turn make it that much harder to convince people when the real peak will occur.
I can understand RRs hesitation and from a academic standpoint admire his humility and skeptism used in his efforts to forcast oil related events. RR has the mark of a true researcher, one who does not rest on his laurels claiming he has found the answer, instead he takes what he thinks is right, and subjects to even further scrutiny. Its an excercise I think is well worth doing, because if it turns out that this is a false peak, this community had best have moral fortitude and academic honesty to go back and admit they were wrong and review WHY they were wrong. During that process, it will mean that methodologies will need to be picked apart.
Amen
I totally agree - Robert's approach is IMO entirely correct, and he is to be highly commended in taking the line he has.
Beautifully put.
:)
That is funny....
Robert: "We sank in 2 hours, 23 minutes and twelve seconds and your math was wrong".
The early HL plot for Mexico showed a P/Q intercept of about 13%. While it is not impossible, 13% is unlikely.
Russia's HL also has a P/Q intercept over 10%. Its predicted Qt is also likely to be inaccurate.
Notice a developing trend here?
The trend I've been noticing is the tendency for HL to produce false alarms 10-15 years before peak.
Dream on while you still can.
As I stated before if production was with 5-10% of peak 10-15 years before peak its not a false alarm. Its a good prediction.
The fact that we feel 20 or more years at peak is a long time is simply applying how we feel about time to a process.
Put it this way a mountain say spends say 30% of its lifetime within 10% of its maximum height this could be millions of years. But I think mountain weathering and HL are closely correlated and behave the same way. Other factors have to be taken into account to do a better prediction of when a mountain will reach its peak these are the filters I speak of.
But its the same problem and you can see HL is not something you discard.
Its not a personal attack. Stay focused.