It seems to me that a proper (indeed a central) role for democratic Gov't is to act as an agent for the public (as opposed to private) interests.

For me the following things follow from this:

- If Gov't is to fund research activities then the product of that research should serve public interests i.e. the data should be released to the public domain or, at the least, the intellectual property rights, and the royalty revenues that flow from the commercialization of them by the private sector, should go to the state, not a private company, and used for the benifit of the general population i.e. to offset taxation.

- Likewise with Gov't investments in built infrastructure, the thing that is built should be public, not private, property.

Tax incentives on the production side are, in my opinion, just about the worst way for Gov't to seek to effect behavior change. I say this because:

- The ability of companies to "game" the tax system is huge. The goal of the company will always be to minimise tax paid , not necessarly to engage in the behaviour change the Gov't seeks to effect.

- Democracy is impossible without public oversight, and this in turn requires public access to information. Because tax records are confidential between the Gov't and the tax payer detailed public oversight of this activity becomes impossible. For this and other reasons if Gov't is to directly subsidise it should, in my opinion be done via grants or loans whose paperwork is fully public.

If the collective decision is to encourage bio-fuel consumption (hopefully at the expense of fossil fuels) then I'd suggest that the equitable way to do it is to rebate the consumer i.e. have the Gov't pay a rebate of X$ per gallon to the end user upon proof of purchase.

Let me be clear that I'm not advocating for such a rebate in this particular case, from what little I know about bio-fuels large scale development would, if possible at all, be a nightmare in terms of global heating, soil depletion, etc. as discussed at length here. I'm just saying that IF we DO want to encourage it using gov't fiscal methods this is how to go about it.

I take it as axiomatic that an objective of "business" is, whenever possible, to "externalize" i.e. "commonize" their costs and "privatize" their profits. I don't hold them as "evil" for acting this way, anymore than I hold a Lion as "evil" for eating some cute looking helpless prey species, they are each just "doing what they do", but we should all remember that we are, in fact, members of a prey species (lets not be helpless) when we hear business saying that they think a really good idea is being proposed...

“It seems to me that a proper (indeed a central) role for democratic Gov't is to act as an agent for the public (as opposed to private) interests.” Posted by John Milton

Except that well organized and funded private interests are much better at getting a democratic government to cater to their interests than is the generally apathetic, distracted and disorganized “public.” Any conversation within the halls of an elected government is constantly skewed and led off track by these private (usually corporate) interests. For any government to seriously address these problems, they have to be empowered to toss the lobbyists, admen and spin doctors off the table and focus on actual, workable solutions, without fearing a political backlash on the next election day. This is a large part of the reason that Cuba was able to survive the cutoff of Russian oil after the collapse of the Soviet Union relatively intact.

Trying to hang on to “our democracy” as we go farther post-peak is like trying to hang on to the private automobile, ultimately, neither are sustainable and both are part of the problem. Furthermore, it distracts us from addressing the actual situation and prevents our considering realistic solutions as these are deemed “politically impossible.”

Antoinetta III

Antoinetta III:

"Except that well organized and funded private interests are much better..."

Pretty much agree with that paragraph, sad but true esp. in N. America.

But when you say:

"Trying to hang on to “our democracy” as we go farther post-peak is like trying to hang on to the private automobile, ultimately, neither are sustainable and both are part of the problem."

Do you mean to suggest that only some non-democratic form of Gov't can function post - peak? If so then I'd need a good argument for that position, or have I misunderstood you?

I would suggest that the assumption is: what is called "our democracy" is not democratic.

Whoever people vote into power will continue to work more for the lobbying parties than for the people... perhaps the need is for a small (less complexity), democratic government that is truly independent of corporate lobbying and is easily held accountable.

As A. III noted: "...they have to be empowered to toss the lobbyists, admen and spin doctors off the table and focus on actual, workable solutions, without fearing a political backlash on the next election day."

That was how I read it, anyway...

"You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created."
Albert Einstein

I agree that that is what she meant, and in any case, it is what I mean. We don't have a democracy. We have a corporate kleptocracy, and it is hard to imagine that peak oil stress is going to cause a flourishing of a "power to the people" movement. The stakes will rise, the resources will shrink, and the corporate interests will ultimately take over completely.

In fact I'd argue that it is the oil age bubble that has allowed what little democracy we have in the U.S. to remain in operation these last 100 years. So great has been the abundance of American agriculture and energy that even the greediest private interests haven't been able to take everything or drive the "public interest" out of government entirely.

In the future, a future of scarcity and economic losers, it is easy to forsee that things could get less democratic, less open to the interests of the common person, less isolated from corporate interests.

It's a paradox. If a system is elected and "democratic", how do you prevent a few-well organized and financed special interests from out-organizing and out-spending the more or less inattentive "general population" to ensure that government prioritizes their agenda before the long-term interests of the overall society.

If a government has the authority to toss said special interests off the table, it's not democratic. And when the special interests take control, it ceases to be democratic.

Antoinetta III

Ummm... o.k. I thought this would be "understood", but seems not.

You are not going to have a functional democracy if you have a 'more or less inattentive "general population"', by which I mean a population which does no more than vote at election time. (and yes I know many don't even do that).

That's sort of like calling yourself a cabinet maker because you bought an old hand plane at a garage sale.

This is actually understood much more widely in Europe and elsewhere than it is in North America.