![]() | GHAWAR: an estimate of remaining oil reserves and production decline (Part 2 - results) | The Oil Drum | DrumBeat: April 29, 2007 | ![]() |
143 comments on DrumBeat: April 28, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
143 comments on DrumBeat: April 28, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Carbon Capture and Storage
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
- Some predictions on the forthcoming Russian-Ukrainian gas 'crisis'
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”
—Gandhi
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
"There used to be such a thing in this country." Well, yes. But once car and jet travel became cheap, no one wanted to pay for train service any more. They wanted somebody else to pay for it. They still do. That's why we have to sit around waiting for governments to take care of it. Which is why we're discussing it here instead of riding on actual trains. And why our grandchildren may still be just discussing it.
And why our grandchildren may still be just discussing it
Perhaps, as they bicycle to work.
Best Hopes,
Alan
PS: You missed the long list of GOVERNMENT subsidies and direct actions that made car (less mention was made of jet) travel cheaper.
Hint: It was government actions and not some mythical "quasi-Free Market" that changed America's Urban form from ~1950 to ~1970.
Well, yes. The whole transportation and "tourism" sector is obscenely oversubsidized. OTOH, car drivers at least pay towards the capital cost of the vehicle, major roadbeds and major construction, many major bridges and tunnels, insurance, fuel, and all repairs. Urban-rail riders pay maybe 1/3 or less of "operating costs", which really means 1/3 or less of insurance (perhaps), fuel, drivers, and repairs. The taxpayers usually pick up the vehicles, roadbed, stations, major refurbishing, driver pensions, and so on, even though only a tiny minority of them actually have any conceivable use for the facilities. At least the vast and overwhelming majority of the taxpayers (over-)use the highways, even though the subsidies guarantee that there are many more highways than would be economically optimal.
Perhaps even more importantly, if there's really such a big 'energy descent' in the works that our grandchildren must "bicycle to work" - i.e. it's not, as now, just a choice - then we need to begin cutting the transportation sector down to size yesterday. That can start with honest billing throughout - especially in aviation-and-conventions-and-tourism, which, though it's not the biggest slice, is such a powerful symbol of superfluous, mind-boggling profligacy; and there could be huge follow-on savings from cutting down the vast infrastructure of energy-guzzling hotels and the like. OTOH, if that much descent is not in the works, cutting transportation down to the optimum is still good economics. Either way, but given honest billing, then if people want trains, or they don't, so be it.
BTW, if that big a descent is in the works, I suppose it would be well for people living in areas supported by little but "tourism" to prepare themselves to make a living at some activity other than the likes of changing bedsheets in hotels. I can't imagine what NOLA could possibly do to earn a living in circumstances that straitened...
Oh, and people who could afford it did everything they could to live in the suburbs long before 1950. One of the perennial exhibits at the local (model) train show concerns advertisements and documents from the Chicago & Northwestern Railroad complaining rather bitterly about the competition from high-wheel bicycles in the 1890s - had the "safety" bicycle not been invented in time, we might not have bicycles as they would have been banned at the behest of the railroads. Away from the crack trains on main routes like Chicago to New York, a lot of service was that slow, slovenly, and unreliable even back then. The railroads were massively subsidized, with every-other-section of land along their routes, and dissipated much of the booty on executive high living. Not so different from now, actually. (There are many reasons why, as you travel west of the Mississippi, and until you reach the Left Coast, you still encounter the lingering remains of a tremendous, visceral hatred of the railroads.) Anyway, the postwar mortgage subsidies and the orgy of Interstate-building merely democratized an already-existing reality.
I think you just said that Out West people hate railroads because once upon a time there were Robber Barons.
Hunh? The very same people love Deadeye Dick and his sidekick Chimpy.
A few facts to disturb your ideology certainities. But not to denate, your mind is clearly set in concrete.
The larger Urban rail systems are, the more efficient they are. DC Metro and BART cover ~80% of operating expenses (NOT 1/3rd) with fares and could, with a fair amount of ease cover 100%.
But it would be sub-optimum for them to operate at breakeven because of *ALL* of the unpaid for negatives of auto transportation. They would have fewer riders at 100% cost recovery, but the negatives associated increased auto use make that a very bad social choice.
The roads & highways take land (often as much as 20%), off of the property tax rolls, and distort the urban form compeltely. Rail never takes even 1%, and inter-city rail pays property taxes. A MAJOR plus for any city; to put more land to useful purpose (even parks are useful) inctead of wasting *SO* much on roads & highways.
Thanks for the snide remark about New Orleans. One can tell the loving spirit and true character of a man when you see a man that kicks someone in the ass after they have slipped and fallen (or rather pushed down and pummeled to a pulp with multiple broken bones by the US Army and US Gov't). It reveals *SO* much about the inner person !
New Orleans is still a major port, operating at about 93% of pre-K levels, still a major rail hub, still has two medical schools (in what is now a city of less than 300,000), a major food manufacturer, a center for the oil & gas industry, etc.
I wish justice rather than mercy for you.
Alan
The highway system is one of the most massively subsidized government works projects in the U.S. The majority of funding comes straight out of our property taxes, income taxes and sales taxes. Only 35% of all federal, state and local expenditures for highways are paid for by gas taxes. Local streets are even more heavily subsidized. So the more you drive, the more subsidy you get. No wonder car travel is cheap. Not to mention externalities like pollution, congestion, oil wars, global warming, etc.
The airline industry has rolled up a cumulative loss over its entire history. Since 9/11 the industry has experienced two dozen Chapter 11 bankruptcy filings, five liquidations, and $35 billion in cumulative losses.