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263 comments on DrumBeat: May 29, 2007

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writerman on May 29, 2007 - 2:50pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I agree about the "quality" of many of the comments in The Guardian relating to Monbiot's article about Peak Oil. What's both irritating and depressing about many of the reactions to the piece, is that the Guardian is a newspaper for the affluent and educated Middle Class, more or less.

The number of people who have an almost religious faith in progress, a tech-fix solution and the magical ability of market forces to conjure alternative sources of energy out of the air, is, candidly, rather frightening.

I've been debating Peak Oil with some highly educated, inteelligent, talented and influential people lately; and they just don't get it! The more I develope my arguments, the less they seem go get it! It's rather odd. It's almost as if I'm presenting an outline for a science fiction novel to a very sceptical publisher, who doesn't think the idea will fly with the public at all.

I think the consequences for our way of life are so enormous and challanging, if Peak Oil is imminent and we've done virtually nothing to mitigate it, that people simply refuse to face it, but prefer to turn away and party on!

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MUDLOGGER on May 29, 2007 - 3:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Most Grauniad (sp intended)readers are paid out of the public purse.

Never had to meet a payroll or think about ROI's of any description. Completely paid out of taxes, they live in a nirvana of zero thought and the public purse. Good pensions too!

Good place to go if you want a job as :

Lesbian, Gay Outreach Coordinator

Five a Day Fruit Coordinator

Real Nappy Coordinator

These are actual jobs. Really.

Educated but still thick.

All well salaried, perked and index linked pensioned.

One day the ever open public purse may get tight though.

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xeroid on May 29, 2007 - 3:49pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

As Al Gore says "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it".

Even if he does understand it (and I think many people don't, even if you take the trouble to explain it) what can one person do to turn it round? ... so, party on and hope somebody else can fix it!

The Kyoto global warming targets, if achieved, would mean massively less FF use ... but also a massive recession ... so which democratic government is going to propose that? Who would vote for them?

Xeroid.

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slx on May 29, 2007 - 4:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Or to paraphrase "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary does not depend upon his understanding of it".

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xeroid on May 29, 2007 - 4:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Exactly.

Xeroid.

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southpaw on May 29, 2007 - 4:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Gore was quoting the very perceptive Upton Sinclair.

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jjhman on May 30, 2007 - 9:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The quote is from Upton Sinclair. Lots of people have used it.

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southpaw on May 29, 2007 - 11:34pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"The more I develop my arguments, the less they seem to get it!"

Writerman, recognize that you are presenting information that contradicts decades of societal programming reinforced by everyday experiences. Thoughts do not float around freely in the brain. They represent specific physical pathways. While there are some opportunities for plasticity or malleability to alter the established pattern, the already conditioned responses are so interdependent and elaborately interconnected that, for most people, only a tremendous shock (analogous to ECT) or a great deal of time and effort to recondition will bring about the kind of reprioritization you intend to illicit.

The assumption is often made that we all have the same mental filtering system and all one needs to do is submit the requisite number of inputs to redirect the system. However, there are enough subtle variations in how sensory input is processed to account for differing reactions to the same information.

An extreme example of an atypical filtering process is the autistic savant who blocks the heaps of distracting sensory data the rest of us constantly wade through and intensely focuses his or her mind on one area of interest. It is thought by many that this type of focusing reflecting unusual temporal lobe physiology (part of the filter system) accounts for their heightened perceptions and memory.

I'm guessing the typical TOD reader has a filter that tends to ignore a lot of the noise that most people get caught up in. It seems like the people you are having a difficult time with are increasingly unwilling to attempt to process verbal information that conflicts with their established patterns of thought and the noise that continues to reinforce those patterns.

Don't give up. FWIW, I've had success with several seemingly hopeless cases.

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TheTransition on May 30, 2007 - 6:21am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It seems like the people you are having a difficult time with are increasingly unwilling to attempt to process verbal information that conflicts with their established patterns of thought and the noise that continues to reinforce those patterns.

You can see the exact same effect here too when a non-polically correct opinion is delivered.

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econguy on May 31, 2007 - 9:15am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Try suggesting that a 20% decline in petroleum production in five years -- to early 1990s levels for example -- might NOT cause collapse/depression/mass dieoff.

Heresy!

Admittedly, a 40%+ decline would be pretty interesting.

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doctorbob on May 30, 2007 - 6:41am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"only a tremendous shock (analogous to ECT) or a great deal of time and effort to recondition will bring about the kind of reprioritization you intend to illicit."

Apart from a very small percentage of people, I think you are right - a short, sharp shock (God, one of the Thatcher government's phrases!), will be required. Candidates:

* A GOM hurricane to put oil above $100
* Stock market collapse when KSA run out of excuses and admit they have little or no spare capacity
* Recession which sees mortgage foreclosures hit a few % of the population

The last of these may not be sudden will I think will happen anyway over a period of a few years but whether recognition of the cause will come with it, I wouldn't like to say.

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Aniya on May 31, 2007 - 12:14am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hi,

Hmnn...interesting question, what are the conditions for change.

I offer space, as in "emotional space" or acceptance, as productive. (In a way that shock and/or hard times can never be.) Emotional space, or "unconditional positive regard" - (positive and yet disinterested attention) allows the brain to think. Acceptance and connection, respect for autonomy (seeming contradictions) - are what people crave. Most people have a lot of the negative, going some ways back.
www.cnvc.org, www.newconversations.net, www.gordontraining.com.

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