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GAIA Host Collective
Alan-- Please comment again (you have posted this info before, I know)
Suppose intra-city and inter-city passenger rail were suddenly electrified, and people started using existing electric car technology-- plug into the grid for battery charge, maybe a backup small gasoline engine-- for as much of their individual travel.
Would that overstress the grid? Would it increase or decrease carbon dioxide generation? Would it help or harm, or would it make any overall difference? Also, what would it take to electrify Greyhound busses? Could they be designed to plug into the grid for charge?
Thanks
DOE's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory researched that and came up with these results:
Rail and bus travel constitutes a fraction of one percent of vehicle miles driven in the U.S., so complete electrification of rail and bus alone would present no difficulty for the U.S. grid.
Assuming the current mix of electricity generating plants and fuels, electrification of the U.S. light vehicle fleet would reduce greenhouse gas emissions 27%, VOCs by 93%, CO by 98% and NOx by 31%. All emissions in urban areas would be improved. However, in rural areas where coal generating plants are located, particulates would increase by 18% and SOx would increase by 125%.
Plug-in hybrid buses are technically feasible and have been rolled out in a number of applications such as school buses.
Electrifying the current level of public transit would be nice, but rather inconsequential. To adapt to declining oil supply we need a massive shift from single-occupancy motor vehicles to other forms of transport, and there are many obstacles to achieving that, including:
* electricity for such greatly expanded service
* money and energy for the manufacturing of such vehicles
* the time it takes to do it even if resources are available
* social and political obstacles
That's all very true. We have the electricity to make the shift, but it's available at night. So it's actually electricity storage that is an obstacle.
Rail uses a small fraction of U.S. energy -- a total of 659 trillion BTU, or 0.66 % of U.S. energy consumption (see Table 2.4).
About 10% of all U.S. rail is electrified, which means the other 90 percent can make the 250%-300% efficiency gains from electrification that Alan mentions. At best, present rail energy use could be reduced to 264 trillion BTU, or 0.26% of U.S. energy consumption.
[EDIT] (659 * 0.1) + ((659 * 0.9) / 3) = 264
The Pacific Northwest National Laboratory report says we can add 3.1 quads of (mostly) nighttime load to the existing grid. That means we could increase the energy consumption of rail by something like 900% using existing grid capacity (assuming use of a storage scheme like pumped hydro which has a 78% efficiency ratio in the U.S.).
[EDIT] Increasing the energy consumption of rail by 900%, combined with a 200%-300% efficiency gain from electrification, would enable a 18-27 fold increase in the work accomplished by rail, using existing grid capacity.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of that electrical generation not "used" at night is natural gas fired; some of it inefficient single cycle NG turbines.
We do not have the NG to fire these plants 17 or 20 hours/day.
The demands placed by switching 90% of current inter-city truck ton-miles on electrified rail, plus as much Urban Rail as we could build and finish in a half dozen years equal about one or two years growth in electrical demand. A recession plus higher prices could free up that much and more.
However EVs much larger and with greater ranges than GEMs http://www.gemcar.com would pose a problem. I wonder if NG fuel cars might not be a better choice for several reasons for at least a decade.
One reason is not to crash the electrical grid for other purposes than recharging EVs. A decade of wind turbine + HV DC lines + pumped storage construction could satisfy the EV demand (I think) with minimal NG use by the grid.
I have a larger picture in mind, but which path to take "depends" on several variables.
In all cases, installing tankless NG hot water heaters to replace older NG water heaters and more insulation are VERY GOOD things.
Best Hopes,
Alan
I'm more and more suspicious of any proposal that depends on switching where switching involves much in the way of rebuilding. Because if it takes something like 25 barrels of oil to build a prius and then maybe a barrel a month to run it the barrels to convert will themselves be too much. All of society will be trying to invest oil now to reduce future demand for oil. [I know because I'm doing that personally.]
It won't be only one sector of society, eg automobiles, but it will be the grid, food, industry - all at the same time. The recognition of peak oil is going to drive any entity willing to prepare into a spend-it-while-you-have-it mode. Sort of a pre-hurricane rush to the store.
Duct tape!
cfm in Gray, ME
The flaw in many of these reports is that they report energy usage as oil consumption when in fact most of the steps either can or even already are not done in oil. What such reports should honestly say is barrels of oil equivalent in energy, but they do not.
For example, there is a large myth on this website that most mining can only be done with fossil fueled machinery. This is simply not true as almost all underground mining is done electrically which means that above ground mining could be if necessary. And the manufacture of an automobile in the assembly line is very electrically oriented, not fossil fuel oriented.
This is precisely why we could change how we live. Fossil fuels are not how many people portray them. We have many other energy sources that are close enough in cost that we could use those instead. The problem is not can we do this but rather will we do this?
Ghawar Is Dying
The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function. - Dr. Albert Bartlett
vtpeacenik,
Or we could just encourage carpooling and vanpooling by barring one driver cars on the interstates, and refusing them a parking place in inner cities. Make the sale of new gasoline engines illegal, diesel and hybrids only. Stop road construction and repairs, instead put light rail on the right-of ways, tax internal combustion engine cars at $5,000 each as a license plate fee-call it an energy security tax.
The obstacles are the car companies and big oil, and the whores at the car companies could be persuaded by the idea of all the new diesel and electric cars.
Our country just lacks the political will because of the corruption from corporations.
Bob Ebersole
You don't need to go so far as call it "corruption". It's simply corporations protecting their own interests. After all, they're legally bound to provide maximum profits to shareholders and all that. In principle, there's nothing wrong with this, providing there are sufficient corporations of equal power and influence all excising their own differing agendas.
Unfortunately certain corporations have become far too big and powerful, argubly more powerful than governments, which are at least democratically elected.
wizofaus my Aussie friend,
Maybe your government was democraticially elected, but ours was appointed by the Supreme Court. The New York Times-Miami Herald recount in 2000 showed that Gore won Florida, and hence the election. In 2004 the exit poll didn't agree with the results in a couple of states with Diboll computerised voting. Kerry won that one.
All corporate contributions should be illegal. They are not persons. And the disgusting amounts of money raised for each of the US presidential candidates should make anyone question who is buying what. I see the broadcast airwaves as public property, and the electronic media should be required to give back time to the candidates.
I guess I'm just old fashioned, thinking votes should be counted honestly,and that media have a civic duty in a Democratic society.
Bob Ebersole
Still, if 70% of the population were unhappy about Bush as president at around election time, he wouldn't be there.
But if 70% of the population are unhappy about the way oil companies manipulate or otherwise influence governments and corporations into decisions that are ultimately deterimental to society as a whole, there's relatively little they can do about it. Yes, in principle, they can stop buying oil. But that's hardly a fair comparison with being able to tick a different box on the ballot paper.
"In principle, there's nothing wrong with this, providing there are sufficient corporations of equal power and influence all excising their own differing agendas."
Ah, the idealistic view. How quaint.
Pity we don't live in that world. And even if we did I still would argue that the corporate structure would have an overall negative impact on society. As it happens though, those differing agendas are things like:
A) It's your right to have the freedom to drive wherever and whenever you like in the biggest SUV around, even if it is just to take little Molly to her friend's house, one block down the road.
B) Don't worry if you're getting fat from a poor diet and the refusal to even walk one block down the road, it's not your fault, your sick and we've got this appetite supressing pill that'll do the trick.
C) Be eco-friendly like us, recycle those cans and plastic bottles - it saves energy and it saves the environment - then come in and check out our latest HD 50 inch screen!
D) Housing bubble? What housing bubble? We can finance your next purchase for 5.75% with zero deposit!!
E) Your kid is high from eating processed sugars and preservatives, never mind take a Ritalin.
Oh, and did someone say "lobbying"?
"You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created."
Albert Einstein
I agree entirely. There is more than ample proof that a system of competing corporations on its own is not likely to provide what society as a whole needs.
But in principle, it's possible, if we had more John Mackeys in the world:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/32239.html
In principle, anything is possible, including: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Which pretty well sums up our principal 'in principle' problem.
If you know what I mean.
Mark Twain did: “What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”
What's interesting is that Mackey sincerely believes his flavour of "ethical capitalism" will win in the end, because profits-first capitalism is not competitive in the long-run. I hope he's right, but I suspect he has a rather more optimistic view of human nature than I do (Note: TOD is about the only place I've ever been accused of excessive optimism. Indeed I used to think of myself as a dyed-in-the-wool pessimist.)
In principle, I like to agree with you and like to hope too for what's right, but what I see actually happening reminds me not to. Call it the precautionary principle. ;-)
Frankly, I'm worried that we won't even be able to maintain the grid at current capacity in the post-carbon age, let alone expand it.
Electrifying current commuter trains would not do much. For example, let's suppose you electrified the Chicago METRA's Northwest line. It sees 64 commuter trains per day, the maximum size is 10 cars per train, shorter in off peak, suppose each railcar weighs 100 tons. That's a maximum of 64,000 ton-miles per mile you would be powering by electricity each day.
Put that same mile of wire above some of the more heavily traveled freight lines, such as those hauling coal out of the Powder River Basin, they often see 37 100+ car unit trains of around 12-15 thousand tons each, or 444,000 ton miles per day (plus another fourth or so for the empties moving back) per mile electrified.
Gallons of diesel saved per dollar of investment in overhead wire (or gallons of diesel saved per pound of copper overhead wire) would be much greater on freight lines.
(Yes, there are some other factors involved, like making the passenger service faster with better acceleration, etc., but this is just a crude analysis)
Better yet, just increase the average MPG on all light vehicles by 5 mpg, and you'll save a lot more gallons
Yes, the Powder River coal lines (3 and 4 tracks BTW) are low hanging fruit.
http://www.trains.com/ctr/objects/images/railroad_electrification_1970s....
But that does NOT mean electrifying the Chicago commuter rail lines is not worth doing.
Figure 10% shorter trip times (rule of thumb), means more riders. Shorter trip times also means existing rolling stock can carry more people (needed when gasoline hits $6, then $10/gallon and then ... ?)
Electric locos also last longer, don't waste time refueling or warming up on a cold morning, cost less to run (whats to break ?) and the number of trains that can be run on an electric rail line is greater than on the same line with diesel locos.
It is NOT an "either/or" regarding increased auto fleet gas mileage. It will be the MAXIMUM for both !
Best Hopes for the WILL to do something !
Alan
"
The perverse thought occurs to me that if this coal is being burned for electrical generation, some of which is going to drive this newly electrified train, why not burn it directly in coal-fired steam engines. Dirty as hell but probably no dirtier than your typical coal-fired power plant. Especially if you consider what nifty new coal-fired steam engine technology we could come up with.....
[/ end perverse fantasy]
I have seen the construction of 24 streetcars for the Canal Line in the New Orleans 1892 Carrollton Barn.
The trucks came from Brookville Equipment in Brookville PA, the a/c units (modified bus units) from the Czech Republic (Carrier compressors from the USA). All else within 100 miles.
End caps (complex curves) from local boat building company. Local Iron Works companies made body sections that were assembled in the barn. Mahogany seats built by local furniture company. Mahogany trim and many "bits & pieces" made by transit workmen, as well as final assembly and painting. Outside workmen came in and did the wiring and controls.
NOT EASY ! But it CAN be done !
Best Hopes for the WILL to do it,
Alan
I will quote my article
More later when I have time.
Best Hopes for Trading 20 BTUs of diesel for 1 BTU of electricity,
Alan
There is plenty of hope for a better world after Peak Oil. Political and financial will are not presently in view -- but that can change pretty fast