154 comments on DrumBeat: July 14, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
154 comments on DrumBeat: July 14, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“So one may almost say that the theory of universal suffrage assumes that the Average Citizen is an active, instructed, intelligent ruler of his country. The facts contradict this assumption.”
—James Bryce (1909, 35)
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Rooftops Key To Florida Green Energy Goal...
I enjoy reading about these much ballyhooed signing events. On the front pages of newspapers across Florida this morning are headlines shouting the story of Governor Crist and the Terminator signing??? What exactly did they sign??? Well, it must have been something like a letter of intent??? No details, mind you, just high minded ideas and fuzzy, if any, plans. Being a curious sort of person I ask myself the natural questions, why, why now, who will pay, how much, etc. Of course most of these questions will not be answered untill FPL (Florida Power & Light) make some decisions. Perhaps the why, why now questions can be answered especially if the front pages of yesterdays Florida newspapers are read. 'Crist Declares Global Warming Real Threat, One Third Of Florida Could Be Under Water In 25 Years.' Gov Crist and the Terminator are well aware of the tipping point of global warming and that some brainy experts on the subject, including scientists Hansen and Lovelock, have predicted that if we have not passed the 'tipping point' of global warming that the momentum of using ever more FFs to make ever more widgets will send us barreling through the 'tipping point' with no notice being taken by most. As usual, politicians are using a 'nobel cause' to go after a problem facing their dominions. In the case of Florida it is the problem that the state has little housing construction going on and this has been THE economic engine for the state for a very long time. To get the guys with the hammers back to work why not have them put a lot of solar collectors on a lot of roofs and charge the residents for most of the costs? ...And when the next hurricane blows the damn things into the nearest river or lake, well, we can just do it all over again!
There are massive savings available by building trees to shade peoples houses to reduce A/C load, though a bit of a silly idea in a hurricane prone area. Also painting houses white to make them absorb less heat is a fairly smart idea. Imagine if they did that and provided PV/Wind. CSP is ideal as it has the highest output at time of most demand. Global warming tipping point is mighty scary, why was the 'evidence' for WMD's in Iraq enough to warrant a war but the 'supposed scientific consensus on global warming needs more research.
Fossil fuels contribute to global warming,
They are finite and we are approaching the point when demand and supply cross
Our current way of life WILL have to change to even give the rest of the world a chance.
There are even more massive savings to be had by building underground, which eliminates the need for air conditioning and most heating. We may be forced, in inhospitable areas, to become burrowers. The next real estate bubble could be McBurrows. Florida has a freeboard problem at the best of times, and these aren't the best of times. Burrows may flood but they don't blow over. I'd recommend not living in Florida in the frst place, unless it is on a boat.
I think that's where we're heading. The only question is when.
As Newsweek pointed out a couple of years ago, Florida became the vacation and retirement fantasyland it is during a period of unusually low hurricane activity, and because of the availability of cheap air-conditioning.
Like Jared Diamond pointed out, we tend to assume that the future will be like the past. Tain't necessarily so.
Dig down a couple of feet in my yard and voila! There is a well! Across the street there is a large river. Burrowing here is not an option imo. My house is surrounded by large trees, mostly live oaks, which shade the house, vehicles and lawn. If I was dumb enough to cut down the trees (to install solar collectors on the roof) my water useage would go up if I wanted to continue to have a St Augistine Grass lawn and my AC costs would go up considerably in a house without shade. Most homes in Florida, except those that are new on lots scraped bare by developers, are shaded.
If Florida floods one third of the world population is going to become refugees. This GW problem is not just limited to Florida...are you reading, Oilmanbob? Alan?
River, I'm 55 and expect that Galveston will only become the new Atlantis after I'm dead.
I sure agree about the value of shade trees. I have a decent sized south roof that gets no shade, and I'm considering a 4 mw system. Not enough to pay for my AC, but enough to keep the refrigerator, computer and ceiling fans going in a brown-out.
I bet Alan's off eating another fantastic meal and will torture us with a description later. He'd better act right or I'm going to support a draft - Alan Drake For President!
Bob Ebersole
Bob, I will put up signs in my area 'Alan For Pres'...
Saturday is market day and right by the market is Cafe Du Monde...Ummm...Benigts and great coffee. NO has some great food.
I assure you a 4 mw system would do a lot more than provide your AC. Surely, you mean 4 kw unless you wanted to electrify the whole community.
North Little Rock where I live has gotten 7.5 inches of rain in the first 14 days of July, breaking 30 year records.
I was here 30 years ago. But the parents and I were hunting down a House to buy and move into and I was the family devining rod. I had a feel for houses and was the person who picked this one. I am currently living in my parent's house taking care of them and myself in their old age and my room is again being used for something besides another storage room.
I have need of nothing much myself, and have tons of things I can sell, give away or reuse to make something else with. I have hundreds of pounds of tools, but they are just so mixed in with over a ton of books and papers it will take me months or years to sort through them.
PS. I did announce my F.R.N party, If Alan would like to run as a write in canidate, prehaps he can write me, LOL, I am serious, I am just tried of the status quo not getting anything done.
A burrow that has flooded is going to be just as useless as an aboveground house shredded to smithereens by a tornado. You'll have to rebuild it from scratch, as it will be soaked through and through with polluted water like all those unsalvageable houses in lower NOLA. Only, since it's a burrow, you'll have the added expense of pumping it out and tearing it apart first. Never mind that in most parts of the country, keeping even shallow basements reliably dry seems to be an unsolved problem.
You're right, the real problem is living in Florida, or anyplace else within easy reach of storm surges, in the first place. An issue, though, is that we live in the age of the Safety Nazi, appointed to rule over us because we all know that Baby Boomers would live forever if only all perfidiousness could be suppressed. This means that older folks are often told to become hermits whenever there is the tiniest threat of the tiniest bit of ice or snow. ("I must advise you this way, if I don't, I could be hauled before the medical board for failing to use best practice, or you could sue me for malpractice.") So, not wanting to spend whatever time they have left in prison, they naturally move to where it never snows. And there's almost noplace in North America with temperate weather year-round, so they must pick their poison. C'est la vie.
I agree with PaulS regarding the "Safety Nazi."
I can think of no better way to cull all the really stupid people who clutter the blogosphere and byways of the US and the world.
Imagine, some complete dolt decides "I don't need no damned gubbamint man atellin' me what I cain't do. If I wanna build a house out of used beer cans and oriented strandboard, then by God I will do it!!!"
Along comes a tornado/hurricane/flood/heavy gust of wind and the gene pool is a tiny bit better. Let the retards do what they will. In fact, let's encourage them. The more they knock themselves out of the game through retarded building methods, the better all of our lives will be.
Maybe we should give them all lots of C4 to play with while we're at it.
Can we somehow attach the type of lawyer that usually
exploitsdefends them to the fate of their clients?I would agree with your comments if you would simply substitute "self-righteous pseudo-intellectuals" for "retards."
Speaking of the word "retards," it seems this term has had a resurgence recently. I think I've heard or seen this word used more often in the past six months than since, oh I'd say, ninth grade shop class (and believe me, that's many moons ago). I'm fairly certain that this says more about the people who use this word, though, than about any members of some subject pool to which these people attempt to refer.
*ahem*
All of you have no idea what you are talking about... "Retard" is so passé. These days everyone knows the word is "fucktard". Get with the times! And I hope you aren't "calling for any human decency that [I] may have in [my] pseudo-intellectually mind of [mine]"? Are you? Because, then I'll just reference to the point made by the comment above this one. =]
I am a big fan of numtard.
At the ris^h^h^h certainty of dragging this thread even further into the slime ...
Link to the alt.tasteless records on the subject.
I believe the '96 origin predates its wider use as a term of abuse.
Thanks for the unwanted, but educational, history lesson =]
/me looks around at the world...
You can say that again!
Cherenkov,
There's a great house in Houston on Malone St. called the beercan house. A folk artist put away a couple of six packs a day and then flattened the cans and used them as aluminum siding and great decorations. I'm sure you can find it if you google "folk art, Houston" Its a great piece. Its survived several hurricanes, and is owned by The Orange Show foundation.
Bob Ebersole
A folk artist put away a couple of six packs a day
Sorry for the recycling idea but I couldn't be up to that :-D
Paul, not all earth-encased passive solar houses are burrows. A friend of mine in Montana has a lovely passive solar home built into the South face of a small hill.
The panhandle of Florida has lots of rolling hills...
Errol in Miami
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
'The panhandle of Florida has lots of rolling hills...'
Yes, it certainly does. It also has lots of christian fundamentalists, shrub/vader supporters, and little tolerance for anyone that thinks or acts slightly different from those living in the hills and hollers of the panhandle. I would not move there if the real estate were free.
"You're right, the real problem is living in Florida, or anyplace else within easy reach of storm surges, in the first place."
It's interesting that suddenly Florida has become so fragile as to be unlivable...and yet, the oldest continiously settled community in North America is in Florida. St. Augustine.
Who knows, maybe you just have to design correctly.
RC
Remember, we are only one cubic mile from freedom
Selecting a building site at least a couple hundred feet above sea level is the first step to designing correctly. Selecting building sites that are not in flood plains, near active fault lines, not near volcanos, etc. are also good ideas.
There is clear evidence that homo sapiens were building structures even as hunter gatherers during the last ice age. The structures were simple but built, nonetheless. Many of these structures were built near the ocean, Roger. Do you know why they cannot be found today? Because the ocean today is several hundred feet higher than during the last ice age and the continental shelf, which was once beachfront property, is now buried in silt from the rest of the continent.
You might wish to acquaint yourself with how radical the changes in climate have been over the last 20,000 years. Once you do, you will then realize that what Dr. James Hansen recently said about the IPCC rings true - he doesn't agree with their 59 cm sea level rise while temperatures rise 2 degrees celsius because the last time this happened on earth (temperatures this warm then another 2 degree celsius rise) sea levels actually rose another 25 meters. Note further that Dr. Hansen said that sea level doesn't all rise at the end of this temperature increase but during. And note even further that even the IPCC puts the temperature rise over the next 93 years (to 2100) as at least 2 degrees celsius. This means, if Dr. Hansen is correct, that we will see a cumulative 25 meter rise between now and 2100. Even if we backload the last 20 meters of that from 2050 out, that still means 5 meters (15 feet) in the next 44 years.
The US corporate media have ignored a new report by Nasa's top climate expert saying that the international scientific community got it wrong, and we may be facing an 80-foot rise in the ocean by 2100.
And here is the original paper by Hansen (WARNING! PDF!) first published in the British science journal, Philosophic Transactions of the Royal Society.
So, you see Roger, there is a bit more to proper construction than the luck of having built during a stable climatic period. If Hansen is correct, no construction technique will save St. Augustine, nor New York, nor London, nor most of the major coastal cities of the entire world.
Ghawar Is Dying as we slide Into the Grey Zone
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.
I dunno. We're talking retail here, rooftops. Does retail CSP even exist? All the installations I've ever read about are big farms. Would it even be practical to be constantly sending guys out in trucks to adjust and repair expensive, finicky, delicate, mechanical tracking equipment in a plethora of scattered tiny retail installations? Is even large scale CSP practical in Florida if those delicate tracking systems are going to be wrecked every time a hurricane or large thunderstorm comes through?
As I mentioned in original post this rooftop scheme has no detail to it. Like the Fl State legislature was going to force localities to roll back taxes 30-40%. After a year of back room deals in Talahassee the tax cut in my county turned out to be 4-5%. By the time the Gov., the Terminator, and the various legislatures get a real proposal passed for the ballot this rooftop scheme might be a single panel large enough to run an electric razor.
Crist and the Terminator want to go on record as 'the environmentally aware governors.' If past Florida politics is an indicator, whatever they do will be stupid. They always start out with a fairly sane idea and 2,000 compromises later end up with something that is FUBAR.
Aaaah. Politicians.
Concentrated Solar Power, CSP, can't be put on residential rooftops. They need a clear field so they can track the sun. Or you use a solar tower with heliostats to point the sun at the top of the tower. It is utility grade stuff and not ideal for Florida, due to hazy skies and hurricanes. But Florida could go with batch solar heaters on everyone's roof or in their backyard. These have no moving parts and replace from 50 to 100% of the hot water needs for a family of two. Hot water accounts for 20% of the electric use in Florida homes and solar can eliminate it entirely. With a bit of incentives from the state of Florida utilities could do the job on getting these installed.
I have had a batch heater since 1999 and now look forward to free hot water forever in my home. Many times it is hotter than you can get from an electric heater. I'll know we are serious when we put batch heaters on every roof in Florida.
Solar1, life is full of little ironies. Most of the houses built in South Florida in the 1930s and early 40s were built with integral ( collectors flush with the roof don't blow off in hurricanes : ) thermosiphon domestic hot water heaters. Thermosiphon systems are perfect for South Florida because there is no need for any temperature detection gear or auto drain down because it almost never gets below freezing here. And of course thermosiphon needs no pump, so folks had hot water even during electic outages!
Also, these tended to be small, 2/1 houses with excellent cross-ventilation, a big "Florida room" (screened porch) on the back, and a big yard with a lot of fruit trees. Did these folks know something we need to know?
However, the little "chimneys" on the roof that housed the water tank are almost all gone; I guess I'll be able to time to the day the world all-liquids peak - the day the last of those water tank "chimneys" is removed.
Errol in Miami
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
I post this icon of catabolic collapse and with apologies to Leanan:

Ahh, the gloom of it all ... JMG is my hero. His writing is quite charming though if you follow it, he's probably running about a defcon 1. I'm thinking of studying Druidry.
With that rambling, I tear my bloodshot eyes from the terminal and wander down to the Sunset Valley Farmer's Market for some vittles.
| The problem will solve itself.
| But not in a nice way.
OMG, considering we aren't even on the downslope yet, that photo is simply horrifying.
Good luck to us all...
Errol in Miami
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
It points out that during periods of paradigm shift, a lot of things are going to be tried and not all of them are going to be winners. A lot like the Cambrian explosion.
Wind will be a winner, but not every single implementation of it. There will be casualties along the way.
Something I wonder about, in addition, is that if clouds and rain make Florida an uneconomic locale for solar farms - where the equipment can be bought and installed at deeply discounted wholesale rates - how can high-priced retail solar possibly be a going proposition?
I gather from my reading on this issue that they feel that the free cost of rooftops will counterbalance the decrease in economies of scale. The article mentioned the high price of real estate in Florida and stated that the number of full sun hours ranges between 5 and 6. If true, that would be a decent amount of sun for a solar installation.
Imagine what that will do waterfront property values by declaring 1/3 of Florida will be underwater in 25 years. If you are in the mortgage business are you going to take the note on something that might be a soggy mass of Styrofoam and stucco in 10 to 25 years? I told my in-laws this in no uncertain terms this past month whom live in S. Miami and are retiring any day now with their house as a significant part of their assets. Not one usually prone to foul language I said, "One day very soon the dumb fucks are going to get wise and stop moving to S. Florida by the droves."
Or you should see parts of the west Miami-Dade and Broward Co.'s housing developments. No guff, they've got homes sitting about 18" to 24" above the surrounding water. Idiocy compounded on idiocy.
Fortunately we live in north Florida and will cash out on the fools moving north but wanting to stay in the Sunshine State. As for the rooftop solar, well some doubt the validity of Citizenre, but political trends such as the one's moving forward in California, and now Florida, are going to make their prospects much better.
bentnail,
ther's a couple of subdivisions in the Galveston Bay area that have already been flooded. One is in Seabrook, the other in Baytown. Plus, about 1/3rd of the Goose Creek oil field is underwater due to sudsidence from oil production.
On West Beach in Galveston a number of houses are now virtually in the water due to erosion. They're beyond the seawall. It amazes me that the state and city allow people to continue to build where the Island is already eroding, and that anyone would be fool enough to build a $500K beach house on that kind of land. Yet the're still building.
them.
Bob Ebersole
Err...If waterfront in Fl is in trouble what about the really expensive waterfront on Cape Cod, Long Island, Hyennis, etc? Getting an insurance company to write a policy for waterfront property in Florida is no longer a easy thing. Many that have never filed a claim have been cancelled, including me. The state has started an insurance fund of last resort but it is not cheap.
I think it's insurance that's going to be the death knell for coastal real estate. Eventually, the taxpayers are going to get ticked off at paying for it. It's not like these are poor people who need the help. These are often the filthy rich, who had a one million-dollar home wiped out by a hurricane, then used taxpayers' money to build a 2 million dollar home.
Florida has had the most insurance problems, because of all of the hurricanes, but All-State recently dropped New York and other east coast areas. Even though they haven't been hit by hurricanes recently, they will, and the insurance companies know it.
Leanan, you are correct. We are not filthy rich but our home was paid off long ago. Now we self insure this home but the home on beachside that we own is still insured. If the insurance on that home goes up again we will drop the insurance on it. If it blows away we will sell the lot if someone wants it, if no one wants it then so be it. My wife and I are over 60, have enjoyed life and dont really care if we make another dollar. We are both keenly aware of the perfect storm of PO, CC, a tanking world economy, and an imcompetent administration and we have discussed at length what we should do. We have decided to stay put and keep the water wings handy. All of our friends live in this area. At our age selling all this stuff and moving is not an option that we are anxious to take. Our lives were fun and productive and we are not afraid to go. As long as we are together, that is all that matters. We still help out at the local center for blind children and volunteer at the Red Cross. We both have worked quite a few hurricane and tornado aftermaths on the RC disaster response teams. We were both in Homestead with the Red Cross a couple of days after Andrew passed through and were almost in as much shock as those that weathered that storm. It looked like the aftermath of a nuclear explosion. We will keep on keeping on and do what we can to help out. Watching the perfect storm develop holds our attention and makes us curious to see how it will unfold. BTW, thanks for Drum Beat, it is a hoot!
Any real estate at less than 200 ft. above MSL should be avoided for, umm let's see..., about 200 years or so.
Of course if you can trust your climate models, just buy a hill and have an island later!
| The problem will solve itself.
| But not in a nice way.