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59 comments on Why We "Waste" Energy: The Second Law of Thermodynamics Explains--UPDATED 8/7
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59 comments on Why We "Waste" Energy: The Second Law of Thermodynamics Explains--UPDATED 8/7
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Dr. Schmitz presents a good description of the entropy problem. The beginning of his article is almost the same as that of David Goodstein in his little book, "Out of Gas" (Norton, 2004), which I happen to be reading just now. Dr. Goodstein is a physics professor at Cal Tech. Schmitz misses a minor point in not mentioning that the temperature to be used is absolute temperature, that is, degrees Kelvin in SI units, although he uses Kelvin in his calculations.
Unfortunately, he completely screws up the energy efficiency calculation for a steam engine, using the boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure as his high temperature. Steam boilers operate at a much higher temperature and pressure than this and the efficiency of a steam power plant is much above his calculated 25% Carnot value as a result. The same is also true for an automobile engine, when operated at peak efficiency, which is seldom the case for a gasoline powered vehicle.
Worse yet, his description of a refrigerator is also completely incorrect. Refrigerators (and air conditioners) operate by reversing the Carnot cycle, in a sense. They use energy from some external source to pump heat to a lower enthropic state at a higher temperature. In so doing, they "create" more enthropy than the reduction in enthropy that is produced as high temperature fluid or exhaust air. The temperature of the "exhaust" heat exchanger is above ambient temperature. As Goodstein pointed out, the thermal energy made available at the exhaust temperature compared to the temperature of the inside of the refrigerator can not then be used in another heat engine to recover the initial input of energy by the electric motor. That would be a perpetual motion device. As for the efficiency of the appliance, that could be defined as the difference between an ideal heat pump with Carnot efficiency and an actual system using some real working fluid, real pumps and real motors. The SEER rating of an air conditioner is another thing entirely.
I guess Dr. Schmitz's confusion to be expected from someone without a background in physics or mechanical engineering. Perhaps his experiences working with electrical engineers has clouded his vision. That he gets it wrong just shows how difficult it is for people to understand the energy problem, especially as so few of us have engineering or science degrees to begin with.
E. Swanson
I have to agree, at least in my limited knowledge. The refrigerator efficiency calculation seemed senseless.
I wonder if TheOilDrum could use a little more "prescreening" of articles! Sorry for criticism...
Schmitz did say an "atmospheric" steam engine, i.e., not pressurized.
And a vacuum is applied to the other side of the piston?
No vacuum involved, just compression/expansion of
refrigerants.
Where IS that 'Theory of Everything' ?
Here
it is !
I am presently in vocational training in HVAC/R.
RE: "atmospheric"
That is a non-rigorous term. All refrigerants have a change of state that enables them to move heat from one place to another. The change of state is dependent on temperature AND PRESSURE. PSIG a parameter of regergerants is an absolute value, atmospheric is a relative value, i.e. at about 1200 feet elevation PSIG is 14.7.
Where IS that 'Theory of Everything' ?
Here
it is !
But why do you link to a crank science site in every sig? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
Am I asking an old question here or does this guy troll for this sort of nonsense every time he posts?
I quit posting much of anything that challenges
conventional wisdom cause of this attitude. History of technology is full of these kind of attitudes. I'll let time
solve this issue. Or not.
"http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=air+conditioning+
refrigerants&btnG=Google+Search">Google
So what's the difference between this link on this issue and other over more controversial issue's ?
Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question.
To TOD Staff: Thank you for a personally
valuable site. I just hope it stays free. I will read it as much as I can. But I will keep my posting within limits of conventional thinking. I hope air conditioning
technology is conventional enough.
Where IS that 'Theory of Everything' ?
Here
it is !
I am presently in vocational training in HVAC/R.
Try expanding your curriculum to include history of technology instead of tinfoil-hat physics. You might even get better at your job. And you would certainly be better informed about the situation we are discussing on TOD, and how we got to where we are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomen_steam_engine
I found that by typing atmospheric steam engine into the Wikipedia search box and clicking intelligently. You may have heard of Wikipedia, by the way. A couple of minutes there can save a whole lot of wasted time, effort, and typing, both your own and other people's, in a forum like this. And you get to learn things instead of attracting abuse.
Would it be possible to implement an automated test of the ability to use simple online reference tools like Wikipedia as a pre-qualification for posting privileges on TOD?
In a rush, I erred - I responded to 'atmosphere' as
a adjective not a noun, since it was in quotes. I am guilty.
New sig. Heh.
Flaws
in EM Theory
I like this idea (and not just for TOD).
However, TOD has more pressing needs. One of them is a review system which allows pieces like this to go before more eyeballs before they get posted. TOD has people with the technical chops to catch errors like Schmitz's before publication, but Drupal doesn't allow read-only access to the publication queue for review purposes (according to SuperG, it's all or nothing).
Commenters are understood (mostly) not to be speaking for TOD. Our articles are another matter, and I think most will agree that errors in basic science should be cause to return an article to the author for correction before the public sees it. Drupal doesn't have the features for this sort of workflow, and from discussion behind the scenes I can tell you that the people most intimately involved don't think it will be easy.
This sort of thing may happen again. I just want to make clear that the problem isn't the people so much as the system we have pressed into service for TOD.
Does your VocEd include a grounding in classical thermodynamics?
If you don't understand the details of the "theory of everything" you link to, do you have any business promoting it?
i am niether a scientist nor an engineer
i am totally a layperson when it comes to this. but i have read a little about thermodynamics through books like "Entropy," from jeremy rifkin etc.
my understanding:
The Nature of Energy
Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form -- From radiant energy to mechanical or electrical etc. In other words, the amount of energy in the universe is constant. There is just as much energy in the universe today as there was thirteen and a half billion years ago. The difference between now and then is that the amount of high quality energy is not the same. It has declined.
i like to think of it in terms of an hourglass with a waterwheel inside. The amount of sand in an hour glass.
Remains the same; and as the sand falls, it has the ability to spin a wheel. But you can't turn the hourglass upside down and start over again.
There is highly organized energy or high quality energy in a high state, and there is low quality diffuse energy in a low degraded state. As energy flows from a high state to a low state, it has the ability to do work. Heat always flows from hot to cold, never the reverse. Work is only done as energy flows from a high state to a low state. In the case of Industrialism, work is normally done as heat generated by burning hydrocarbons heats a turbine that generates useful electricity.
Exhaust from the tailpipe of an accelerating car, plus friction from the air and ground, equals the amount of energy burned during the trip.
Time measures rising entropy in the universe. The natural tendency is for things to fall apart through time. A highly organized system requires high quality useful energy to continue functioning. As time passes, the organized system ages and falls apart naturally. Large amounts of useful energy are required to prevent decay and eventual collapse. Human beings eat food which provides people with fuel to burn (calories) for energy and raw material to build bodies.
without actually doing the math, i'll probably never understand it like a physicist or an engineer...
but i do intend to buy the book "The Second Law of Life: Energy, Technology, and the Future of Earth As We Know It."
anyone and everyone please feel free to correct me. got to go.
Yes, applying the smell test to his refrigeration calculations downright curled my nostril hairs.
With his formula, if you take the fridge down to absolute 0 efficiency approaches 100%!!!
Pretty obviously bunk.
If the heat sink was 0°K, the efficiency would indeed be 100%.
I also have no background on physics or mechanical engineering (out of what is common to computer engineering), but would never make such mistake.
That is plain common sense (once you know about entropy) that it should be easier to create a small temperature gradient than a bigger one, as it is easier to exploit a big grandient than a smaller one.
A engineer background isn't even needed to know that. At least around here, Carnot cycles and steam machine efficiency are hight-school knowledge.
Such an ignorance from a person with that curriculum is not excusable, and TOD would be better without this article, since it makes such a gross mistake and adds so little (most discussions about wasting energy around here have very little to do with theoretical limits, but with practical ones imposed by economics or lazyness).
FYI, I cringed when I read through this post. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to so much as comment about it publicly until today. TOD's software doesn't allow the full list of editors and contributors to review posts before publication, and this lack of review resulted in the publication of something which should have been held for correction.