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245 comments on DrumBeat: August 4, 2007

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totoneila on August 4, 2007 - 3:48pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello Nate,

Your Quote: "But if you buy nat gas now, how can you store it until 2010?"

Standard Disclaimer: I am no expert.

As mentioned before in earlier speculative posts: pass legislation to store the natgas in the chemical form of fertilizer to help support prices to signal paradigm change, and to help bridge the transition to relocalized, organic permaculture.

Recall my earlier posts on the eventual mining depletion of phosphates, and the plant nutrient essentials of the elements: NPK [nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium]. We also need to avoid the burning of billions of trees, and the consequent habitat decimation; to not recreate a primitive potash industry again [see earlier post on New England tree-burning in early America].

http://futureopportunities.blog.com/171828/
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April 15, 2005

Brazil, China and India have all simultaneously discovered a great need for potash. Bill Doyle, chief executive of Potash Corp. of Saskatchewan, the world's largest producer of potash, told shareholders in the 2004 annual report that:

[Paragraph broken apart to emphasize--BS]
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the upside of potash [potassium source-K-an alkali metal] is even higher than the other two key nutrients in fertilizer - nitrogen [N], and phosphates [phosphorus source-P].
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Farmers have been skimping on potash, and now China needs to double its ration to catch up the U.S., while Brazil needs another 50 per cent to compete with U.S. yields of soybeans in particular.
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EDIT: IMO, I think people are drastically underestimating the postPeak importance of water and fertilizers: Please Wiki, "War of the Pacific" to see what countries did to gain access to NPK for fertilizers and explosives before the discovery of fossil fuels, or reread my earlier post on this topic. Thxs!

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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totoneila on August 4, 2007 - 4:34pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello TODers,

If I was an expert bat-biologist: I would be going apeshit to quickly setup a North American franchise operation on renewable [biosolar mindset] batshit shelters to help support relocalized permaculture. The ERoEI of batcrap to FF-fertilizers needs to be expertly analyzed, IMO.

Have you priced guano lately? A repost below:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2268/158584
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Yesterday's Drumbeat had quite a subthread on organic vs FF farming. Below is a repost of a Jan. 24 posting that got no comments at that time. Could batshelters be the key to drastically raising organic yields?

Hello TODers,

In the recent natgas keythread: I posted again how we should be using natgas to stockpile fertilizer to help us bridge to relocalized permaculture. If this isn't done, I hope, at a minimum, we can go back to the future:

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What would the reader think, if he were asked to invest in a gold mine from which all of the ore had been taken out, and, at the end of a year, it had all replaced itself? What would he think, if he had, attached to his mercantile establishment, a warehouse in which, as fast as the goods were removed for display and sale, they would replace themselves without the expenditure on his part of one grain of energy or one cent in money!
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EDIT: to make link below activated [Please see photos!]

http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030212campbell/campbell%201...

I was astounded by the amount harvested. Are there any TOD biologists that care to comment? A postPeak future with very little FF-pesticide will require lots of bats to keep the bugs at bay.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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oilmanbob on August 4, 2007 - 5:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hi Bob Shaw,
The problem with storing natural gas as fertilizer is that the ammonia plants have mostly moved overseas in search of cheap gas.
Don't worry, nobody's going to flare gas. Its illegal, as well as economicially wasteful. What the pipelines will do is pro-rate how much gas a producer can sell, forcing them to shut in wells in accordance with the shut in provisions of the leases. All oil and gas leases have shut in provisions, gas has mostly been in surplus in the US. I'm a landman, we buy oil leases, this is in my area of professional expertise.

I like the bat farm idea. However, I'll bet the neighbors would complain a lot less with a worm farm, and worm castings are high dollar. Worms are high protein and can also be used in aquaculture as fish food or sold for bait. It might make a real commercial operation for a small farmer.
Bob Ebersole

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Lanterne rouge on August 4, 2007 - 5:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Does the bat poop actually work any better than bird poop?

I think the difference is the lack of nitrogen leaching caused by the critters pooping in the dry. So a barn roost for swifts etc. would work as well.

Most of the huge deposits in places like Chile were made economically exploitable by steam power in the C19th have been used up, and what remains will be small beer. I would have bat roosts anyway, but I would for resilience' sake try to spread increased fertility across as many sources as possible.

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totoneila on August 4, 2007 - 5:28pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello Oilmanbob and Lantern Rouge,

Thxs for responding. Good points by both of you,thxs. Worms and composting are good, but they don't eat the flying critters, and most birds poop everywhere. Yep, keeping any natural fertilizer free from water is the secret to reduce nitrogen leaching. We need 'em all; as many species as possible from extinction to optimize the decline: worms, birds for daylight, bats for night-time; the Circle of Life.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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WNC Observer on August 5, 2007 - 10:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Interesting thought. Homemade bat roosts or bat boxes look pretty easy to build. Not much more than a couple of boards with a bat-width space in between and a little roof overhead. Maybe you rout some horizontal grooves on the interior boards to give the bats something to grab on to? Here's a link for one set of plans I have found, a Google will find you more:

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/publications/bats/PDFs/BatHouseDi...

I suppose one could very easily set these things up over one's compost bin so that the droppings just go directly into the compost. That would keep the droppings from accumulating, assuming you turn your compost occasionally (and will thus keep down the smell) and it would also massively increase the fertilizer value of the compost. Plus that would eliminate any extra shoveling on one's part.

There are some do's and don'ts regarding bat house management - this link has all the good info:

http://www.batmanagement.com/Batcentral/batboxes/whyfail.html

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greenish on August 4, 2007 - 5:25pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hmmm.... I wonder whether bags of fertilizer would be good to 'stockpile' as a personal asset? That would be something one could potentially always trade to those who wish to grow food, and yet not necessarily be something that would be pilfered by thieves. Hmmm.

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souperman2 on August 4, 2007 - 5:30pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I would be careful stockpiling fertilizer.

google Timothy McVay

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Nate Hagens on August 4, 2007 - 5:58pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

until they get 'et or wet or greenish.

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totoneila on August 4, 2007 - 6:40pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello Greenish,

Possibly consider stockpiling bird & bat guano: besides NPK, it also has the other essential minerals for enhancing plant growth and avoiding some unforseen mineral Liebig Minimum to curtail efficient photosynthesis. Might be the best way to avoid being labeled another Timothy McVay too. I am no chemist, but if kept dry: it might not degrade anywhere near as fast as FF-fertilizers. My feeble two cents from a woeful city-boy from the Asphalt Wonderland.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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oilmanbob on August 4, 2007 - 8:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Phosphate would also make a great trade item, as would potash. Or just a premixed balanced fertilizer, like 20-20-20. If I wanted to keep fertilizer, I suggest plastic bags or 5 gallon pvc buckets, the paper bags would get brittle or soggy from humidity.

There is a USDA County Agent office in most of the country. They have arial photos to scale, and will do soil analysis to determine whats the best soil amendments to your garden. They're not free, but damn sure worth the low cost-maybe $20 a sample. They will tell you if you need sulfur to correct the PH, or crushed lime, or micro nutrients. The County agent can give advice as to what varieties do well in your area, all kinds of useful help. in Galveston County they even offer low cost classes and organise plant sales for stuff like citrus or fig trees.
Bob Ebersole

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totoneila on August 5, 2007 - 1:44am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello Oilmanbob,

My guess is guano, because it contains a broad mixture of minerals besides NPK, would need chemical processing and inputed energy to separate the desired molecules to make explosives. In other words: it is naturally at an energy entropy level best suited for plant growth; it takes alot of work to refine into the separate chems to support warfare. In short: guano properly used minimizes violence, and optimizes the drive to relocalized permaculture.

Please read my new post at the very bottom of this Drumbeat.

Edit: Oops! use control F, then venture capital to find it. not quite at the very bottom.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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geek7 on August 5, 2007 - 4:39pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Fertilizer does not have a good shelf life. In general, last year's purchase is not worth spreading on your plot of ground.

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