And you "aint seen nothing yet." Sen. Clinton is a huge supporter of Ethanol so you can bet your bottom dollar that if elected President we'll see more and more of our tax dollars flushed down the toilet.

I'm curious if the article included the harmful affects Ethanol production has on the enviroment and food prices?

Aw, almost all the candidates tout ethanol as green and a way to energy "independence". It sounds good and that's all that matters to a politician looking for votes. A good policy maker will really look into the issue when they actually have to make a decision (although politics still play a role of course). This is why Mr Rapier's FAQ is so important - the facts on ethanol are pretty compelling against, but against that you have ignorance and a desperate wish to secure fuel to maintain the lifestyle of driving around every where, all the time, for everything.

McCain had been the most anti-ethanol guy, but he changed his tune for Iowa

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/11/13/839313...

Mike "Heckuva Job" Brown would stand a better chance of winning an election in New Orleans than an anti-ethanol candidate would of winning Iowa's caucus.

In a flip-flop so absurd it'll be a wonder if it doesn't get lampooned by late-night comedians - not to mention opponents' negative ads - McCain is now proclaiming himself a "strong" ethanol supporter.

"I support ethanol and I think it is a vital, a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects," he said in an August speech in Grinnell, Iowa, as reported by the Associated Press.

It sounds good and that's all that matters to a politician looking for votes.

Exactly.

Our scientists at the Lemming Institute for Grocking Human Thought (The LIGHT) have discovered that the human species responds best to "sound" logic.

They hold little hope for rational thought taking over.

Our scientists at the Lemming Institute for Grocking Human Thought (The LIGHT) have discovered that the human species responds best to "sound" logic.

[humorous-pedantry] I believe the term is 'Grokking' [/humorous-pedantry]

Given that we are strange eggs in the cusp, and often unstuck in time, it is hard to know what spelling to apply to this cognitive activity. Suffice it to say that cognitive appreciation of what goes on in the human mind is illusive if not downright impossible.

Strange eggs in the cusp, often unstuck in time. My favorite post of the day, thanks.

OK. Not fair to have book worm jokes embedded on a public bog. We're speaking in the language of the Stranger in a Strange Land. A classic if you have not read and grokked it.

D'oh! Read it when it was first written, didn't recognize it here and admired the alien quality of thought. (And I would have put down "unstuck in time" to Billy Pilgrim and the Tralfamadorians). (Which, as Dave Barry might note, would be a great name for a rock band).

Yes, you are right. The "unstuck in time" phrase should have been attributed to Slaughterhouse Five. Sorry.

Grokking Kool Aid.

Two years of Oil Drum later, I get the King Corn episode of The West Wing so much better now.
--
Jaymax (cornucomer-doomopian)

so you can bet your bottom dollar that if elected President [Hillary] we'll see more and more of our tax dollars flushed down the toilet

I am not sure that is true. I have seen Bill Clinton talk about imminent peak oil. One thing everyone says about Hillary Clinton is that she does her homework and knows the facts. Ethanol is a farm subsidy that also seems to many to have environmental and national security values. Winning farm state support is essential to win a national election.

Politicians like Clinton know that fossil fuels are limited and that they are going to have to do something about it. The media, oil companies and business in general do not want to have the population scared by talk of severe shortages and the economic downturn they imply. This denial cannot be taken on in a national politic campaign until there is wider acceptance of it in society. People vote for the politicians who give them the most optimistic view of the future. Some people, like Matt Simmons, need to get way out in front and change people's minds but a political candidate cannot do it unless they have no chance of winning and are not really trying to win (although sometimes they throw a desperation long bomb). Perhaps it would be better if that were not the case but we need to deal with the world as it is.

And yet it does demonstrate a certain lack of imagination, that no politician can think of a way to sell to the public the need to move away from fossil fuels. If Bush can get up there and admit "America is addicted to oil", and even the most optimistic estimates show that America will be gradually become utterly reliant on the Middle East for its oil supplies over the next decade or so, then surely there has to be way to tap into America's touted patriotic sense of independence and self-reliance.

In war times, governments have been able to rally the public on the need to conserve and become more self-reliant (e.g. victory gardens). We already have government-sponsored ads here in Australia encouraging us and suggesting ways to use less water and less electricity or natural gas. "Use less petrol" is the next logical step. It's not an impossible message to sell. Sounds like the U.S. candidates are simply throwing it in the "too hard" basket. Or, more cynically, they have too much vested interest in the fossil-fuel industries, and are sufficiently selfish and short-sighted to put that ahead of the country's (and planet's) long term needs.
But again, if Roscoe Bartlett can make a stand, so can others.

Well they do all talk about energy independance but that is not a realistic possibility in the short term given the US has only 2% of world oil reserves. What they cannot say is that the world may well have passed peak oil, peak gas will come in only a few years at most and that we will pass peak coal in less than twenty years. That we will face an overwhelming crisis comparable to the World Wars. People would view that as too pessimistic because they do not have the foundation to believe it yet. But I think the most thoughtful candidates, among whom I include Clinton, know what we really face.

Roscoe Bartlett is not running for president with a reasonable chance of winning which is why he has the freedom to say what he does. When people start to listen to him then main stream politicians will also be able to say what he does.

A "crisis comparable to the World Wars" is most almost a given, if Americans start doing nothing to reduce their oil and gas usage.

Of course that's not the way you sell it. Get a crack team of propagandists, marketeers and advertisers in a room together, and I bet they could come up with a campaign to convince Americans that driving big cars is uncool, public transport is "in", and wasting oil is as bad as littering or smoking. And it would cost a fraction of what the alternatives imply, even if you had to pay off compensation to big oil and big auto companies.

Right on. No problem at all. Done in 6 months.

Or a decade.

Actively attempting to sway public opinion takes time, but I don't think there's any question that it can be done.

Mind you, last night I couldn't help noticing that one of our government-sponsored ads for cutting back on electricity usage "to help prevent climate change" was wedged between an ad for a plasma TV and an ad for a 4WD/SUV-type vehicle. The sad thing is that there will be viewers that will buy a new plasma TV and a new SUV, then think that switching off unused lights, or turning the A/C down a little will somehow compensate.

Its taken two decades of constant marketing to get us to being good consumers so I doubt they could come up with something that would convince us otherwise in less time..