38 comments on The ASPO Conference - First Afternoon
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GAIA Host Collective
$80/bl oil and no demand destruction yet
I saw a report on one of the MSM channels saying that people are electing to preserve their credit cards over preserving their homes/mortgages.
In other words they would rather be late on their mortgage than delinquent on their credit card. This a reversal from past trends where people who are short on cash flow go delinquent on their credit cards first and try to preserve their home.
Maybe that is why we are still not yet seeing demand destruction due to rising gasoline prices?
In suburbia, gasoline is essential to short term existence. One has to be able to drive to the job, to the super markets, just to keep living day to day. Any thoughts?
maybe it's just that we're so f-ing wealthy...
I mean, there was that story from a few weeks ago that said $4.50/gal was the inflection point of behavior--which STILL seems amazing to me.
Of course, with all the liquidity that's now just laying around--and of course that means it won't be peak oil that drives oil to $100, it will be the weak dollar--we're not going to know the value of much of anything soon.
Prof. Goose said
"I mean, there was that story from a few weeks ago that said $4.50/gal was the inflection point of behavior--which STILL seems amazing to me."
It's absolutely fascinating isn't it? The problem is that "macroeconomics" cannot easily grasp the complexity of facts on the ground.
I will use myself as an example. I drive 44 miles per day round trip to work at a decent paying job (by central Kentucky standards). What am I, an idiot?
I live in a paid for house. To have an equal house where I work would cost me at least $130,000 dollars in new debt, plus interest, plus higher taxes, higher living expenses in general, a far less desirable living environment, all to save about $30 dollars in Diesel fuel every week and a half, or about $700 per year. (!!) How long would it take me to justify what would be over $300,000 dollars in liability at current mortgage rates, even if I could get a mortgage? What if fuel prices doubled? Or tripled? Or quadripled? At some point down the road, with fuel 4 times the price it is now, the balance still works out to me being in debt for the rest of may natural life (unless I live to be 120 years old) to try to save $700 dollars a year in Diesel fuel at current price, or some $2800 per year if Diesel were 4 times the price. But it gets better....
I have some debt. One left over car loan until recently. When I paid it off, it saved me some $3600 dollars a year. Three credit card and consumer loan payments. I figured up the interest on all three, and (blush) I was paying out nearly $6000 per year in interest payments (!!!) I know, stupid me, the mistakes of earlier years....so I began a dedicated debt reduction plan. Paid off one card, still the other two loans to go, but interest expense between the paid off car and the paid down debt has already reduced my yearly cash outlay by over two thousand dollars or nearly a third. By mid next year, I intend to be paid out, clean.
And take note: I am now saving, due to reduced interest payments, 3 TIMES the amount I spend yearly for Diesel fuel! And if I make my goal, by mid next year, will be saving 9 times the amount I currently spend in Diesel fuel! :-O
So as fuel went up in price, which was I better off to do? (a) Move closer to work and incur a quarter million dollars in new liability, or (b) Simply pay down debt and pay the money for the increased Diesel fuel? Mind you, all this is calculated on a car that gets just over 30 miles per gallon on Diesel, not bad, but since I am used to Diesel, finding a car that could get some 25 to 30 percent better would not be impossible. And I don't live in suburbia, I live in the freakin' country!
For me, the problem is NOT economic, and it is not for most people in America. The problem is political and philosophical....greenhouse gas, pouring money into the hands of our enemies, depleting a valuable and irreplacable resource. It bothers me. But from an economic viewpoint, even at my low station in life, Diesel could go to $10 or $12 per gallon, and I would be better off paying down debt than trying to reduce my daily work commute.
There is one more little issue hanging out there: Security of supply. As long as the issue is price, I can cringe, curse and bear it. But if the Diesel stopped flowing, I would be FORCED to change fast. But, would I rather have to change with money in the bank than with nothing? Of course, and that is why for now, again, the best game is "pay and play", that is, pay at the pump and pay down debt, and play the commuter game....soon, I will be able to have enough money in bonds and interest bearing notes to let the interest pay for my fuel....but if that happens, how will I ever be able to justify the end of the daily commute financially? Now replay all the above, with an electric car that gets 60 mile range (not at all undoable with todays technology) or a plug hybrid getting some 125 per gallon (doable on the range I drive). It is demonstrable that transportation creates wealth, pure and simple. By giving me greater range and choice in housing and jobs, I can save more than I spend in almost any real world example I can conjure up, by being able to move about.
The macroeconomists have problems quantifying this simple fact, as do the "back to the bicycle" gang. They are happy that they are not spending money on oil and gasoline. But they are spending money, MUCH MORE money, on increased housing costs, taxes, lack of personal security, and worst of all, interest on debt, which dwarfs the cost of oil, even if it were to go to European style prices (this helps explain why despite high fuel prices, Europe is still relatively prosperous by world standards.
This is why I find myself rolling on the floor in laughter every time I read one of James Howard Kunstler's screeching fits about how suburbia will soon be an abandoned shell, empty of residents, abondoned quarter million dollar homes due to......no gas??? No matter how you stack the numbers, until the last of the last of the last oil is dribbled out, economically, it just does not make sense.
My bet: The big banks, with their 28% credit cards, bleeding the U.S. to death far faster than the oil price, will be gone before suburbia will.
RC
You are looking at the micro level, which is valid.
But at the macro level, the US will have less oil to burn, year after year. ELM + the US % of world imports is likely to shrink. Peak Oil is peak world oil production (however defined). Exports will fall faster than total world oil production, and the USA will get a smaller % of total world imports. A shrinking % of a shrinking #.
How to reconcile the micro with the macro ? (A resolution WILL be found !)
I suggest in a 3rd dimension, your job disappears and with it your need to commute and burn diesel.
Alternatives are that you find a smaller condo near work that is worth less than your paid for house (at prices when you trade). You pocket the profits tax-free from your old home and use the surplus to pay down credit cards. Or rent a spare room 4 nights/week near work from "someone" and spend weekends @ home.
One way or the other, the "Invisible Hand" will reconcile macro and micro. Even if it takes $25/gallon to do so.
Best Hopes for Economic Activity not declining TOO much Post-Peak Oil,
Alan
BTW, you underestimate the herd instinct when it comes to Americans and housing
Here is one macroeconomic scenario:
The cost of oil on the world market goes up as the US dollar collapses. Heating oil distributors attempt to raise prices to compensate, but this is stopped by governments worried about granny freezing to death over the harsh winter. They run short of oil, granny freezes to death, oil distributors go bankrupt. Massive lawsuits all around. US dollar collapses some more. People buy space heaters to compensate. The grid goes down too.
Some brave governors/legislatures/illuminati see the writing on the wall and allow market forces to operate. Electricity goes to $1/kWh (today's dollars--maybe $10, maybe $100 in the new US Peso).
Low interest rates keep the economy from collapsing into a recession, but real interest is low and there is massive inflation. Bonds are worthless. Pensioners are screwed and are forced back into the workforce, selling McMacaroni&Ketchup(TM) for obscene prices. Any help the government tries to give just causes further US dollar collapse until indexing ceases. People become as dirt poor as the stereotypical '50s hillbilly with the red long underwear with the holes in the knees.
Eventually, Halliburton's camps are full of rioters/criminals/ Republocrats/insurgents. Things get so bad that everyone is relieved when things start running again. Except the campers.
"McDonald's--slightly better than death" never catches on as a slogan.
Hey ThatsIt,
You forgot the huge tax write-off for large vehicles (total gross weight exceeding 6000lbs). Gas could be $5 per gallon and it would still be cheaper to drive one of these than a Prius if you have your own business.
The issue I have is that high gas prices are going to effect the poor disproportionately.
The other caveat is that the price could jump to $30 just as easily as it could go to $4 or $5 if getting enough supply becomes a problem.
-SBA
RC
Nicely reasoned. I sense a fellow list-maker and compulsive
calculator user.
For obvious reasons demand for petrol/diesel is highly
inelastic, and people will give up almost anything else
rather than reduce their car usage.
My wife and I are pensioners, and do not even begin to qualify as being wealthy, but are entirely free of debt.
Our elderly Mercedes gives just over 20 mpg, and we usually
drive about 3,000 miles per year= 150 gallons(Imperial) p.a.
costing approx. £55 per month.
A small diesel car or Toyota Prius (2009 model) would give 50 mpg= 60 gallons, so even £100 ($200) per gallon would be
easily affordable at £500 per month. Even doubling our
mileage to 6,000 p.a. would not cause any financial strain.
If this would be possible for people like us, then the rich
could continue to drive large vehicles, and flying private
planes. However society would most probably be collapsing
about our ears, with the resultant loss of pension funds,
which would remove my wife and myself from the ranks of oil
consumers.
Rationing will be the only answer with essential services
given priority, and leisure driving probably forbidden.
Makes me glad that I already have 50 years of driving in
many different countries already accomplished.
Mr Toad,
I notice something else....why is that all of us compulsive calculators end up in elderly Mercedes cars....you, Alan Drake, me....is this a symptom we should worry about? :-)
RC
Americans will turn their children into sex slaves and sell them to their senators for extra cash to pay for gas before they cut back on their driving.
step back,
You can live in your car but you can't drive your house to work. Also, many sub-prime debtors are well aware of the difficulties of foreclosing on someone's homestead. In many, if not all states a foreclosure takes a minimum of 4 months, while cutting off a credit card can be as quick as a month late. If you'll put on your reading glasses and squint you'll see that an unsecured creditor can cancell your card at any time for any reason, including being behind on other payments.
Also, if you'll check with the local charities you will find that many grants are written to "prevent homelessness". There are often grants available to catch people up on their mortgage, but none available for credit cards even if gasoline is essential to get back and forth to the greeter's job at Walmart.Bob Ebersole
It could be that subconsciously these people are underwater on the house, and they are preparing themselves mentally for foreclosure. And once you decide to let the house go, there isn't any point in paying the mortgage any more, is there...
People will not be able to change their lifestyles because they are so tightly controled by the hand to mouth style living brought about by the the availability of cheap credit, which is in essence a more expensive form of money, as you have to pay the creditor to spend it. The downward spiral this creates in terms of household income can not be reversed, and as prices increase the hamsters need to run ever faster for ever longer, thus never being able to stop until the end.
In other words they would rather be late on their mortgage than delinquent on their credit card.
I do not think the mortgage industry has discovered 'default rates' that are punitive. Some credit cards have 33% default rates.