LET's abandon these bio-stunts once and for all - shall we ?

this is a comment I made under yesterdays key-post "A Life Cycle Assessment of Energy Products: Environmental Impact Assessment of Biofuels" - I believe this is paramount to discuss "in these times" ..."

FIRSTLY – absolutely an impressive analysis, but why make it hard when you can make the case obvious and easy – I’m not getting these insane bio-stunts anymore – to me this case is so very closed … and here is why ..

…. its time to sober up and do some REVERSE ENGINEERING on these bio-stunts happening “all over the place”
– this bio-fuel future is incredible easy to scrap (!) if you ask me, how ..?

well, in having a fast peek at World Grain Production – from that link containing this chart

In reading this essay we learn that 2000 million tons of various grains are produced annualy in resent few years ….
This amounts to 2 000 000 000 000 kilograms (or about 300 kg pr capita/person/world)

Now … anyone remember “That Cubic Mile …?” , heavily discussed here at TOD in February this year.
Short : this post revealed that world annual crude extraction was totally round and about ONE cubic mile.

And that ONE Cubic Mile (1 mile = 1609 m), converted into metrics renders (1600m * 1600m * 1600m) = 4 096 000 000 m^3 ……. (And for ease I’ll keep 1 liter of crude ~ 1 kg, spawning m^3 = 1000 kg)

One Cubic Mile of crude oil then comes to: 4 096 000 000 000 kg

ALREADY here we see clearly without doing any advanced thinking to the issues in question that –

TODAYS/2005 SCENARIO "Worlds primary FUEL vs Worlds primary staple FOOD" =>> weight factor 2:1

World Annual Crude Extraction for 2005 =>> 4 Giga tons

DOUBLES

the WORLD GRAIN PRODUCTION for 2005 at =>> 2 Giga tons

.. and now they've started to take from the latter to keep the first at running amounts - what gives first?

Any more to add here (?)

-I mean those 2 Giga tons of of grains ( wheat, corn , rice, sorghum ..) ARE Eaten Every Year these Years – as the World Grain Reserves ARE GOING DOWN - FAR DOWN, they are in the vicinity of 50-60 days only, and going further down.... chill

Keep in mind – my fast calculator-trick here never even addressed the realities of EROEI or any other ifs or buts . In a future of dwindling fossils THE wrooooom ICE is dead – buried and not missed, hey its only converting 15 % of its contained energy into propulsion .. does anyone actually believe that we in a few decades will continnue this ICE/biofuel wastefullness ?

How slim will you accept to become, I mean before you give up your car ?

A bio-jezz, thats what we have

I agree with some of what you say but much of the world grain production is used to feed livestock which could do just fine on a grazing diet although weight gain would be slower. For cattle and other livestock this produces a more heathful product (apologies to vegans) with less impact to the land due to a grass cover vs the production of grain and all of the environmental problems (chemical use, soil loss) that go with it.

The West is becoming a desert now thanx to livestock overgrazing.

There is no more grass to feed except on a "seed corn"
one off basis.

And cows are limited in what grains they can eat.

Pigs can eat junk food though. Saw an article somewhere.

And 3/4 of the world live on a vegan diet, BTW. ;}

Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens

Just quibbling - but I don't know of any vegan population the world except in recent times. Much of the world is vegetarian or nearly so (Chinese according to the China Study eat on average 1/10 the animal protein we do - so they're not close to being strict vegetarians like some Indians I know).

As an interesting aside my family was looking into organic / local beef just before going vegetarian. We're vegetarian primarily for the planet; but also for our health and lastly for ethical reasons. When peak oil hits all bets are off! Some land is best grazed; but the world has too many people and it would be best if we in the "first" world started having a one-child policy and not taking in immigrants. We're the biggest energy users and it's time we lead by controlling our own bloated population and also by reducing our energy use by 1/4 per person or much more.

Right now I'm kind of miffed that I upgraded our failing natural gas water heater with a 19 gal. electric one and it's cheaper to keep the tank hot and it's cheaper to run and it was 1/3 the cost to install; except it's about 15% higher in terms of CO2 emissions (yea our electricity is provided by a green company - Bullfrog - but dirty energy was used to put up those windmills ....).

praetzel, are you saying the CO2 from windmill construction, amortized over the life of the turbine, is greater per kWh than the CO2 from burning nat gas (and the nat gas plant construction CO2)? I find that unbelievable.

btu, as in British Thermal Units I presume
-I’m taking a wide-angle & zoomed out snapshot of “the bio-fuels” live or let die here, I’m not counting a calorie here and two there ..

* National Farmers' Union, May 11, 2007
Straight to the Source

SASKATOON, Sask.-Today, the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) released its first projections of world grain supply and demand for the coming crop year: 2007/08. USDA predicts supplies will plunge to a 53-day equivalent-their lowest level in the 47-year period for which data exists.

"The USDA projects global grain supplies will drop to their lowest levels on record. Further, it is likely that, outside of wartime, global grain supplies have not been this low in a century, perhaps longer," said NFU Director of Research Darrin Qualman .

Most important, 2007/08 will mark the seventh year out of the past eight in which global grain production has fallen short of demand. This consistent shortfall has cut supplies in half-down from a 115-day supply in 1999/00 to the current level of 53 days.

Australia dropping to 15 million tons while
Russia, Ukraine, China stop exports, while India,
Pakistan import puts the current level below 50 days.

Below MOL.

See the Great Grain Robbery 1973 for a preview
of coming attractions.

Wheat at $15!?

Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens

Paal, that's true on a global basis. But that's not how the world works.

Consider Argentina or Brazil, two big soybeans exporters with fuel consumption per capita much lower than in the US. If they turn all their soybean oil into biodiesel, possibly diverting some of the land today growing e.g. wheat to soybeans as well, they will be able to run THEIR economies more or less like they are today. Why wouldn't they?

So, people depending today on agricultural exports from other countries will have a serious problem.

Hi Beach Boy.
My post is of philosophical value only at this stage – because the world is not doing what I say it should do (damn this naughty world..:-))) – but to get the gist to my post you must be able to zoom all the worlds problems/challenges down into your own backyard – then study and see if your claims still work out..

example-
Imagine yourself confined inside a small house – You have “20 kg of corn for fuel” and “10 kg of corn for food”, and you are told you have to stay there for “a long time” …. When do you start to produce your bio-fuel… Beach Boy ? Before or after you finished your "corn for food" ....because there is actually a scooter outside, on which you are allowed to circle around the house as you please …

Paal, you're being reactionary and doom-focused again, as you were with the windmill/transport truck comparison.

First, a few flaws in your approximations and assumptions:

  • The specific gravity of crude oil is closer to 900 than 1000, so cut 10% off your estimation for oil amounts from the get go.
  • You assume that the only source for biofuels is grain - foodstuffs and feedstock. Alternatives like switchgrass grow well in arid or inhospitable regions, where grain cannot be grown, and produce quite acceptable quantities of ethanol for the effort entailed in their groth. (Also algae, but that's as yet unproven.)
  • You're talking about biofuels, so that cubic mile of oil has to shrink again. When biofuel is extracted from biomass, it's ready to roll. Crude has (at best, from the article you sourced) an 89% efficiency in its conversion to fuel oil, so we're down to 80% of that effective fuel you spoke of in that cubic mile.
  • Finally, you're once again making the "things are hopeless" generalization by saying "this one technology will not solve our problems". Barring huge advances in farming technology, biofuels cannot replace all the fuel oil consumed in the world wholesale. This is true. However, biofuels are a handy supplement to buy time, and to replace some of the oil in a long-term manner. Electric transport gives us more options. Increases in efficiency act as a multiplier on the effectiveness of any energy source. All you're doing is trolling by decrying the effectiveness of any one source, and, though I've fallen for it (again), I feel that someone ought to point out the flaws in your argument for the benefit of those reading what you write.

Incomplete information, a limited worldview, and calculations based on sketchy numbers trotted out as proof - just as before.

Alternatives like switchgrass grow well in arid or inhospitable regions, where grain cannot be grown, and produce quite acceptable quantities of ethanol for the effort entailed in their groth.

Proof for this please? In the form of links showing plants that are running making industrial quantities.

How about plants that make industrial quantities year over year? Because any biomass scheme that fails to return to the soil what it extracts is doomed to failure as well.

"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone

Right. Apparently there are huge yield differences between growing alternatives like switchgrass on agricultural land with plenty of water and natural gas based fertilizer from what you would get in arid regions without fertilizer. However, the former conditions have used in most estimates of switchgrass production. Also you need to consider how growing it on marginal lands, year after year, without added nutrients would deplete the already poor soil.

Thousands of years of tallgrass prairie formed some of the richest soils in the world, Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota for example. To say that copious amounts of switchgass or any other warm season grass will be produced on degraded soils is BS, but once established, the soil will get more fertile even with an annual harvest of the biomass. This is more the case with a diverse prairie planting than a monoculture.

"...the soil will get more fertile even with an annual harvest of the biomass."

No. You would have to graze and burn it/prairie circa
1865 to get that.

You're taking and not giving back.

Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens

Hi Darkstorme, you say ...

“Incomplete information, a limited worldview, and calculations based on sketchy numbers trotted out as proof - just as before” –

(good golly miss molly)

Yeah Darkstorm - I’m using the sketchy numbers from EIA, IAE and USDA, what numbers are you running ?

You demand a lot and don’t read too much into my post Darkstorme, please – my post is NOT any EU , US gvt or UN report – its just my little private observation , not more BUT not less either

If being realistic is being doomish, so be it. When you again read me as a doomer I see that as your problem, not mine. I’m just putting up a couple of numbers, which seem to freak you out….. which is good, but my intent was to freak you out, the other way around..

You seem to brand me as a doomer, because I’m not a cornucopian like yourself, so lets meet in the middle and agree that some realistic measures has to be urged today – before some stupid mistakes are made on a too large scale, shall we ?

In following the global energy situation -from my neck of the woods - AND the corresponding and upcoming squeeze for the same – I see a power down scenario alongside conservations – What do you see Darkstorme?