Great presentation. Repeat after me: There is no sugar cane grown in the Amazon (slde 3). Organic sugar cane has an EROEI of of 12:1. Much better for environment and climate than oil.

It's not going to save the world, but sugar cane-based ethanol does work.

WOW what a welcome to TOD....

"You don't seem to be interested in advocating a reduction of the eco-system impacts of all of these other things. Sounds like you are the pot that is calling the kettle black."

Instantly reducing yourself to an ad hominem attack is hardly the way to engender a positive response. If you had started your response at "it doesn't have to be the way you described it" your whole response would have a different feel to it. As it stands, I have a sour taste in my mouth wrt your response and am less likely to pay attention to any science you have to back up your statements. But I will move past that and do my best.

I did concede that Ethanol will play a part (I even stated that sugar cane was an exception did have a positive energy return!!). As will all forms of renewable energy play their part. But blindly worshiping at the foot of one technology is how we became addicted to oil.
And how, by questioning the applicability of ethanol to ease world peak oil am I not "interested in advocating a reduction of the eco-system impacts of [lot of things we take for granted in our modern American world such as cities, roads, industry shopping malls, fast food restaurants, agriculture, raising chickens, pigs and cows to name a few]"?

How you could infer such a stance from one singe post (my very first here) that I am such a anti-enviro minded person?

May I pose other ethanol related questions? (or will I get attacked personally again for daring to question the role of ethanol?)

So then how do we grow sugar cane in other parts of the world then?

How much sugar cane would need to be grown organically to slip in place for oil?

How are the problems of monoculture farming avoided?

How are the problems of P&K addressed?

Wasn't I talking about corn based ethanol anyways???

MS in Ontario Canada

In the coming battle between the 'rightness' of our economic model, and the geological limits to growth, I have a strong suspicion that the geologic limits may win.

I've been wondering if sweet sorghum wouldn't prove to be a better ethanol feedstock for the temperate US than corn (maize). It won't compare with tropical sugar cane, but that can't be grown in temperate zones, whereas sorghum can. In fact, sorghum can be grown everywhere that maize can, and farmers can use the same equipment to plant it. (They may need to at least modify their harvesting equipment, as what they want to harvest is the cane and not ears. This should not present an insurmountable obstacle.) My understanding is that processing of sweet sorghum would not be all that different from the processing of sugar cane.

I wouldn't expect an EROI of as high as 12:1, but even an EROI of only 4:1 (which, as best as I can determine, is getting close to what might be expected for sweet sorghum) looks a whole lot better than the <2:1 obtained from maize ethanol.

Strange that no one at all seems to be talking about this.

I believe I DID say sugar cane works... The post before mine referred to CORN ethanol - I intended to respond primarily to THAT. I aplogize if I made that unclear

My post was written in mostly in response to CORN ethanol (plant in switchgrass and whatever else you want for corn that can be grown in temparate climates)

and for a point of reference, one of the smallest EU states is Luxemburg with a size of 999 sq miles. I know, there are other farms out there with crop fields ranging in this magnatude, but "just because others do something, doesn't make it right".

MS in Ontario Canada

In the coming battle between the 'rightness' of our economic model, and the geological limits to growth, I have a strong suspicion that the geologic limits may win.