My logic follows as such:

Would we still have $100 dollar oil per barrel if:

(a) Iraq was at optimal production
(b) Iran was at optimal production
(c) Nigeria was politically stable and at optimal production
(d) Venesuala was politically stable and at optimal production
(e) Saudi Arabia was investing fully in maintaining optimal production, and had not been caught late in the 1990's on investment due to the givaway oil prices.
(f) Mexican development and production was being well managed.
etc.

So, now on top of all that, take off the 30% percent drop (more by now, I can't keep track) in the value of the dollar in the last several years which puts us back at $70 oil all by itself...

In other words, there are enough above ground old fashioned logistical issues to explain away the current oil price, with no need to resort to peak as an explanation. Likewise, the two cleanest fuels in the world, natural gas and LPG. By historical standards, they are high, but there has been NO effort to substitute them into the transportation mix, indicating that no one as of yet sees an emergency that justifies substitution. And again, if you take out the commodities increase/dollar decrease into account, they are simply not that high in price. In the 1970's, there was more effort to substitute LPG than we have seen now.

People often say "Price has gone up XXX% since the 1990's, a huge amount, that must mean peak!" And then in the next breath remind us that oil was massively underpriced in the 1990's! Think about that for a moment. Would some of the increase in price be simply to get back to what could be viewed as a rational level?

Now, time for the disclaimer: All of the above is NOT proof that we are not at peak. People often use price and production level as indicators either for or against peak oil. These are NOT reliable indicators. When the U.S. peaked in 1970, the price was at an almost all time low in the post war period.
In the late 1970's, production spiraled downward at a dizzying pace, one that makes the current "plateau" look like nothing more than measurement error.

When we get to true geological peak, on top of all the above ground and economic factors we have mentioned above, it is only logical to assume that the price will break to the upside to such an extent it will wash out the above ground/economic factors.

Rough guess would be a spike to $200 per barrel, falling back to about $160.

Then we would just have to see what the combined demand destruction/alternatives/substitution effect would be. We could also be sure that all of production that was possible would be fully funded and come online, but with about a 5 year delay, given lead times, even in an emergency push. We would finally get to see what max production would look like.

All the numbers above are nominal. If the dollar collapses more, they would have to adjusted.

That is why the high oil prices per se are causing some pain, but have not impacted demand greatly. If you take into effect the rising incomes since the 1980's, the rising prices in all other sectors of the economy, and the explosion in personal wealth due to the 1980's/1990's investment bubble, oil at $160 plus will be needed to seriously cut into demand, with one possible exception: If technical improvements enhance efficiency at a very rapid pace, we get "accidental" or "transparent" demand destruction, that is, for the same size/performance/comfort vehicles, the fuel economy increases, thus reducing demand. Don't laugh, it could happen.

Oh, one more thing....you see why you have to be cautious about asking me to explain my thinking! Sorry to go so long.....:-)

RC

Demand destruction appears to be happening in some places already, though perhaps not in our neighborhood. How else could it not be since population has risen for 2 years while oil supply hasn't budged.

It is interesting to ponder what price level would cut use in the U.S., though Stuart has looked at travel data suggesting it may have just begun in the U.S.

I agree fuel is very cheap here, although given the income disparity in the U.S. even these "low" prices are causing low wage earners to cut back in other ways.

Though my circumstances have changed, I try to imagine myself as a college student to understand what it might feel like for the poor. I was really cheap because I had very little money in my bank account. But then again, I didn't have kids and felt sure my family would bale me out if I got in trouble.

The poor in the US are not going to college. They're riding a decrepit bike to their job where they do heavy physical labor for 10-12 hours. then riding home. Eating what prepared food they can ingest before they fall asleep on their plate. A shower generally follows right after work, since they're generally stinky and filthy from the work. If they get any college classes in, it's night classes which are as much a struggle to stay awake as one to get grades. The night class curriculum is generally less thorough than the daytime one, but accelerated so they're learning less stuff, but with a heavier workload. They're wirey and can lift their own bodyweight with ease, after all they do it or close to it all day. They're angry at a deep level, but are not sure why so they supress it.

I speak from personal experience. I try to know what I'm talking about.

This huge sector of the US populace will be the motive force in the coming Revolution. What can I say? Arm up!

Sorry, bit unclear....I was trying to recall what my life was like financially as a college student to understand how increasing gas prices cut into other expenses, not to imply that poor folks are going to college.

I was in great shape in college (wrestling) and am in pretty good shape again (farming manually). I too take my showers in the evening and during the main work season usually fall asleep soon after dinner.

"True geological peak" is only a theoretical possibility, i.e. in an ideal world, which provides an upper limit. Since we do not have an ideal world, the actual peak will be the logistic peak, which will always be lower than the theoretical maximum.

The idea there is a single point where all hell breaks loose is a myth. In reality the transition from cheap oil to expensive oil is a continuous function.

very succinctly put

In other words, there are enough above ground old fashioned logistical issues to explain away the current oil price, with no need to resort to peak as an explanation.

Roger, there always have been above ground factors affecting the supply of oil and there always will be. When oil reaches its very highest peak in production ever, if it has not reached that point already, there will be plenty of above ground factors keeping this country or that country from producing at their full potential.

I really don't understand why you think the fact that above ground factors, affecting the production of oil, indicates that we cannot be at peak oil. Be honest, do you really think all the factors you listed must disappear before we can possibly be at peak oil. That would be strange indeed!

Peak oil will be, or was, at that point where world oil production reaches it highest point ever, regardless of above ground factors.

However I agree with you on one point: Price is no indicator of peak. The price will only spike upward when the world becomes fully aware of peak oil. The fact that the market is in backwardation indicates that the market does not believe peak oil is anywhere in sight. There will be denial of peak oil, by both the people and the market, long after the peak in world oil production.

Ron Patterson