341 comments on DrumBeat: December 1, 2007
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341 comments on DrumBeat: December 1, 2007
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Banning Edison bulbs because they're not effecient enough.....
In the US what are they going to do about all those space and radiant heaters that run on electricity? Or electric stoves?
One would hope that oil filled space heaters would take off here in Iowa, given that we have excellent wind resources shut in by lack of long distance transmission lines.
One $2,500 investment would pretty much free us from heating bills and I itch to get this done ...
Not a cure everywhere, but blanket policies are generally not such a good idea. I think the incandescent bulb ban *is* a good thing, as it only troubles the maker of the EasyBake stove ...
Places around my house where I don't use CFL bulbs:
- Inside my kitchen stove (gas): Too hot
- Inside my fridge and freezer: Too cold
- In the motion sensor controlled security lights outside the house: Too cold in winter to provide enough light quickly
- In my photographic darkroom: They give off enough light to fog film for 3-5 minutes after you switch them off due to residual glow from the phosphor
- In various task lamps that right now use 12 Volt halogen bulbs: Not available in that size or brightness
- In dimmer equipped fixtures: even the "dimmable" CFL's don't work as promised; lifespan of less than a dozen hours in some cases, audible buzzing, non-smooth dimming and unequal brightness in multi-bulb fixtures
- In my workshop: they have a strobe effect which sometimes makes things like spinning saw blades and grinder wheels seem stationary or slow moving when in fact they are not. Very unsafe!
Please just tax them lots to discourage use where they are not needed but don't ban them outright. All lighting methods are not yet equal in ways that do matter
Not to mention that they are not inherently worse either. USAGE of the bulb determines how wasteful they are over type. I have seen way to many people get the cfl bulbs only to leave them on all the time.
Agreed
I see misplaced animositiy towards CFLs though from certain conservative quarters as if saving electricity is a sin or something. Most anti CFL people seem to be anti AGW theory too.
All I know is that I replaced all my general lighting incadescents with CFLs and cut my electric bills by 10% this summer. So I like them!
cfl's are great 'only' if your one of those people committed to cutting your light usage as well. i have seen to many people in my area just replace normal light bulbs with them but leave the new ones on all the time thinking that no matter how much you use them they will still always be better then the wast full incondesents.
this is true though. You seem to be confused, the CFL may cost 1-2 $/bulb, but will last 10x longer and with 1/3rd the energy requirement, therefore so long as regular lightbulbs do not cost less than 1/30 the cost of a CFL, you win with a purchase of a CFL (in monitary terms) regardless of the use.
If you are worried about heating, insulate your home. Best investment you can make.
Uh, no.
Let's take a 30W CFL against a 100W incandescent. Assume the CFL lasts 2 years @ $4, and the incan lasts 3 months @ $1, with electricity going for $0.10/kWh.
Assuming you use the light for 8 hours a day - ~3000/yr - the CFL will cost $11/yr ($9 in electricity + $2 in replacement), vs. $34 for the incan ($30 in electricity + $4 in replacement). So the CFL is a huge win in normal use.
However, if you did the silly "keep the light on all the time" thing for a light that was rarely used before, you could certainly end up spending more. If the light was normally used only 2 hours/day, the incan would be $12/yr, whereas the CFL - used 24 hours/day - would be $29/yr.
So usage matters; indeed, usage is practically all that matters - you can see here how little the purchase price of the bulbs matters compared to the electricity costs.
Won't they have to be ethanol-filled space heaters?
/sarcanol
Hi SCT,
Just a note, since I didn't see an address for you. You asked a question on Nov. 27, and I just offered a reply this evening (Dec. 2). (I say this because I took it as a sincere question, and I had some thoughts.) http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3293#comment-272124
Well, I see a couple of different perspectives, so a quick overview.
Things are 'banned' all the time in the Europe - and Europeans know any number of ways how to get around the bans. For example, when Telekom in Germany used to license everything hooked up to their phone network, only Telekom approved answering machines or wireless phones could be purchased - unless the unit you bought was for 'export only.' Another way around a ban is all the exceptions which will be written into the law.
However, as for banning incandescent bulbs - their efficiency is poor, and whether this meets either doomer or cornucopian approval, efficiency is going to be a major aspect of how we will be dealing with things for the next several decades. Whether this efficiency will be enlightened (LEDs replacing CF replacing incandescent, etc. - with LEDs being very practical to use in a PV framework) or brutal (the person with a woodburning stove that burns less wood will freeze more slowly than someone with an open fireplace) is a separate issue.
As for using electricity for heating - well, it has its place in terms of using baseload in a practical manner. Generally, electric heating done ovrnight is fairly cost effective, unless you guess wrong about the next day's weather - the German systems I'm most familiar with simply store the heat in bricks. Newer systems use floor heating, but I don't think they are as efficient in baseload terms.
But there is a strange aspect in terms of incandescents - they are part of your heating, the same way a refrigerator is. Essentially, a kilowatt powering the lights is a kilowatt of heat.
This is why efficiency and conservation have to be very carefully considered. More efficient lighting may lead to higher heating requirements, which actually may mean that the efficiency increase is improved, as burning natural gas directly for heat is much more efficient than burning it for generating electricity. (During the first energy crisis, Fairfax County opened its new administration building - which was designed to have the lights on 24 hours a day, as part of its heating system. Obviously, this was seen as remarkably wasteful at the time, but actually, it wasn't that bad - not counting summer, of course - except that having a 10 story building lit up continuously seemed a beacon of wastefulness when conservation was considered necessary.)
But whether such an increase in efficiency can actually be called conservation is another matter - after all, natural gas is still being burned. But using LEDs with a PV/battery system, and adding home insulation, may lead to a reduction in both terms of electricity use and in terms of natural gas use - but in this case, the efficiency of LEDs and home insulation have nothing to do with one another at all. Except for allowing people to live comfortably within a framework which is at least potentially sustainable.
The EU, whose citizens in general have more faith in communal solutions to communal problems, is attempting to change things through regulation, without waiting for people to decide it is their self-interest to do so, or for various industries to approve their profits being reduced or eliminated. And the EU, being run by people, will make its share of human mistakes, which is accepted here. America is different. There, it seems, only government mistakes are considered true mistakes.
As a sidenote - 10 years ago, according to a radio report, the most commonly shoplifted item in Germany was CF bulbs. Which actually makes sense - at the time, not only did they cost a lot, but stealing them would lead to fairly substantial long term savings for the thief. I always imagined that most of the thiefs were grandparents, widows, pensioners, etc.
Some very good points, Expat (as usual)
Here in Portland, we've had, for December 1, an exceptionally cold (20f), Windy and Sunny day, where my house could have been entirely Heated by any of a number of Solar Heating options, like these Solar Hot Air Panels that are under construction in the basement.. as well as a good amount of Windpower, which certainly could have just been directly wired to Incandescents inside, producing both heat and light without the losses of batteries and related circuitry. Even the food we are cooking on our electric range is using the heat twice during this season, making the stove a good bit more economical in wintertime.
Of course, the use of Electric Lighting AT ALL during a bright sunny day is a bit of legacy foolishness that I also aim to dismantle with a system that starts with a Tracked-Mirror atop each of my Three Disused ChimneyShafts, providing a constant beam of nearly full sunlight down through the entire depth of the 3story, 3-Apartment building, wherein each floor can 'dip' a mirror into a designated pie-slice of that light, to be directed into the room along the ceiling to where-ever it is needed, diffused, split, filtered, lensed or reflected into useful forms..
I'm not all that impressed by the light that comes from these solar 'light-tubes' that I see installed here and there. As a Lighting Cameraman, I can safely say that diffusing your light source too early in its path will cost you a LOT of lightcandles down the line, and the Light tubes are often difuse both at the roof as well as at the outlet.. (Don't even talk to me about rediffusing difuse sources, you get bupkiss out the back end!) Tracking a mirror barely takes any energy, and the complexity is pretty low. Like most Alt-energy, just takes initial investment and design-time.. climbing on my roof is gravy. It's as close to an extreme sport as I've got.
http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x
Bob Fiske
(oops.. sun is down! Gotta get the insulated shades pulled)
What I especially love: Go into any office, and under the desks of many (most?) of the female clerical workers you will find little electric heaters, heating the air that the air conditioners have cooled. . . because the heaters have heated it. . . because the a/c has cooled it. . . because the heaters have heated it . . . because the a/c has cooled it. . . etc.
An endless feedback loop. Kunstler could have a LOT of fun writing about that one.