236 comments on DrumBeat: December 3, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
236 comments on DrumBeat: December 3, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
- Some predictions on the forthcoming Russian-Ukrainian gas 'crisis'
- The US stimulus and "green jobs" for wind energy
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 13th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“Data always beats theories. 'Look at data three times and then come to a conclusion,' versus 'coming to a conclusion and searching for
some data.' The former will win every time.”
—Matthew Simmons, ASPO-USA conference, Boston, MA, October 26, 2006
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
A new Finance Round-Up by ilargi has been posted at TOD:Canada.
Editorial Note from Stoneleigh: Round-Ups do not always make the front page at TOD. For access to all our work, please check the TOD:Canada site regularly. The last Finance Round-Up (November 29th) can be found here. We intend to publish them twice a week.
It's not that I was wrong when I said we'd see the US economy propped up for one last good Christmas shopping season. It's just that accountants, auditors and ratings agencies have started to feel so much heat, they're afraid they'll be left sitting all alone on the hot cinders around the tree, with a shaky conscience and nothing in their socks to start the new year but pink slips and indictments.
Today, in early December, it's still possible that the worst decay remains buried till 2008, but we can't be sure anymore. What we see is America's largest mortgage lender, Countrywide, hanging on by a thread, while America's, and the world's, biggest bank, Citigroup, may be beyond redemption. After recent securities losses, and $40+ billion more predicted, Citi now admits to a $17 billion write-down on its SIV's, which still leaves another $66 billion of braindead "assets".
Ratings agencies are trying to stay afloat, and increasingly, in the face of congressional investigations, out of prison. To show their good will, they've started downrating companies, bonds, and all sorts of securities. This'll likely be the end for many bond insurers. Is that so bad? Ambac carries $620 billion in structured paper, with $9 billion in cash. ACA insured $61 billion in assets, with $326 million in cash. Isn't it just good riddance?
Well, Ambac are underwriters for paper issued by the likes of Countrywide, GMAC and Lehman Bros, and Ambac's demise will drag down, way down, all the paper they insured, and the clients that issued it.
And it gets worse, with the forced sale of E*Trade's mortgage-backed securities. E*Trade got $2.5 billion from Citadel, a hedge fund, under condition that they sell their MBS. Since nobody trades that stuff these days, for fear of finding out the true value, this sale is a rare glimpse behind the veil. The price they got is 11 to 26 cents on the dollar, a potential 89% loss.
Why is that important? It sets a new rule, law, value, for all remaining mortgage-backed securities, trillions of dollars "worth", that remain in vaults all over the world. For all of them, it just got a whole lot harder, if not downright impossible, to get more than 11 cents on the dollar. Moreover, E*Trade was the only offer in the market when they had to sell. If more, and bigger, parties are forced to unload simultaneously, the price'll go down, so says the free market.
2 Finanical articles in the NYT today...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/opinion/03krugman.html?em&ex=119683080...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/world/europe/02norway.html?em&ex=11968...
U.S. Credit Crisis Adds to Gloom in Norway
From ABC news ....
National Debt Grows $1 Million a Minute
Like a ticking time bomb, the national debt is an explosion waiting to happen. It's expanding by about $1.4 billion a day or nearly $1 million a minute.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=3944576
At this point, the debt is so large that if we were to start paying down the debt as soon as Bush is ousted, using the same rate at which we are currently creating debt, it would take us about 18 years to pay it off, assuming that the future president is willing to cut the federal budget by more than 1 trillion dollars, which is 35.7% of the current budget [Rough estimate, I don't care to do the complex interest/inflation math]
Basically, Bush has screwed over the next five presidents! With all the demands placed on the budget by the baby boomers, and the future need to protect our energy suppliers, the budget simply cannot be reduced in that way. Even if one completely discounts peak oil, the financial picture is still grim! When thought of this way, inflation really is the only way to get out of the debt.
I'm 22. Where is my limitless future? Look out peak oil, here comes peak apathy (As population declines, so does the ability to produce apathy).
I think you are mostly considering just the $8-$9 trillion in Current Debt. The boomers are starting to retire now, that's about $50+ trillion payout. We CANNOT ramp up to pay that. Not in an energy decreasing world with it's Deflationary experience.
We have already past the Event Horizon on debt, and we CANNOT repay it.
It's eventually will be called Soverign Default.
Or as the Phoenix as the Amero ?
So?
Paying off debt over decades isn't necessarily a problem - (responsible) homeowners have been doing that with their mortgages for decades.
More importantly, though, why is it necessary to pay the debt to zero? The US government borrows money at a remarkably low rate of interest - 5% - so it can be cost-effective to borrow, provided the money is spent to create more wealth than is needed to pay it off.
The US government's debt is at about 65% of GDP now, which is a very reasonable number by historical as well as international terms. Interest payments on the debt are at a multi-decade low as a fraction of tax receipts, which themselves are fairly low. Looked at objectively, it's really not that big of a deal.
Those "demands" come almost exclusively from assuming that medical expenses will continue to rise as fast as they have been. They can't - we can't afford it - so they won't.
Paul Krugman has written fairly extensively about this. The basic point is that healthcare in the US is monstrously expensive and inefficient, and fixing that will largely fix the problem.
Well to be frank, I’m not king of finance, actually far from that - but when learning that someone buy other peoples debt, in order to multiply their monies (investment?)...then this is it: “we have reached the pinnacle of thinking, it's not going higher” – take a deep breath, next is back to square #1… for a redesign of western thinking(societies).
Pity enough I know what they do with “their newly bought dept”, they squeeze unlucky poor people between a rock and a hard place… Watch the grim movie “Maxed Out” and see what’s in the coming
Do you think a lot of these places might be waiting until Christmas day (or eve) to put out a press release and disclose a whole gaggle of bad news? It's pretty much the perfect day to let bad news out because no one's going to see it, so it'll mostly go unnoticed.
The Wall Street Journal published their Peak Oil story on the Monday of Thanksgiving week.
Perhaps Export Land Model the Wednesday to Friday after Christmas ?
Best Hopes for Full Disclosure,
Alan
My forecast for Dec. 21st is widespread scattered flurries of pink slips. Employers just LOVE to give their employees the sack right before the Christmas holiday. It does cheer up the holidays, so.
Yes. The credit cards have already been swiped. The gifts are already given.
Stoneleigh,
Just a quick comment. I think one needs to be Very Sceptical about the lose figures provided by Citigroup. The number for their loses seems too low too be true. I read somewhere that they have around 80 billion of bad debts, off the books, hidden in the Caymans.
Also a British bank, just one bank, and not the biggest has alone borrowed over 60 billion dollars in the last few months from the Bank of England, to cover it's loses.
I think the banks are delaying revealing the true extent size of their loses for a number of reasons; they don't really know how much they've lost, they don't care, they hope the government will step in a pick up the loss, they are hoping for a miracle.
It may be worse than that Citi has about $132+ Billion in Level 3 assets (these are non-liquid and very difficult to sell). One of the biggest hurdles for Citi is they lent long and financed using short term bonds, as the bonds come do, Citi (as well as many other lenders) need to sell new bonds to replace the bonds comming due. Its likely that Citi will take a bath, because I doubt they will be able to find investors willing to buy bonds at yields below the yield of the loans they made, (ie Citi loans 15yr@5.5% but the bond yields on short and long term are much higher say 7.0% for 2yr bonds. Citi bleeds money on the difference.