<DrumBeat: January 23, 2008The Oil DrumDrumBeat: January 24, 2008>

436 comments on Is Relocalization Doomed?: A Response to Staniford’s "Fallacy of Reversibility"

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

crobar on January 23, 2008 - 11:32am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

If you look at my profile, you will see that I am a researcher in wave energy. I am optimising generators. These technologies are not new, and date from the time of the last oil crisis, they have merely undergone refinment from their initial design principles which were never carried on when the funding dried up.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
crobar on January 23, 2008 - 11:40am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"Why do you call nuclear 'The most modern'?"

To further clarify this comment, wind power has been used for centuries, in ships and windmills, it's a small step to connect a generator to these. Also, I don't have the referece, but the first wave energy device was proposed i believe, but not built, in the 1800s. Renewable energy technology is merely the refinement of an old idea. The high technology comes in when you want to make them economic.

By contrast, nuclear fission has only been understood relatively recently, hence it is by far the most modern.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
jokuhl on January 23, 2008 - 12:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

You seem resistant to considering the idea that while some of our Reactors, as recent as they are to HUMAN history, are today a couple generations old and facing 'Advanced Decrepitude'. They are now OLD sources in terms of the 2008 Energy Supply.

As a solution to our present energy situation, they are not at the head of the list (speaking of chronology, not priority) not the new kid in class, as ways have been developing to make other sources both increasingly economical, and less politically objectionable. In that conversation, Nuclear is not a NEW item on that agenda, and it's advocates are not the Avant Garde. They are an 'established' and 'historical' provider. This is the point Astyk seems to be making as well.

Meanwhile, the US installed 5gw of Wind Capacity last year. That's by all rights NEW, even if it's an age-old power source. Are proponents of Windmills and Solar Panels 'Reversalists' or 'Technophiles'? The point is that the term is overly vague, and most likely divisive.

Computers are 'New' and 'Modern'.. but if you're running Win3.1, you are clearly a wierdo who is stuck in the distant past. Right?

Bob

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
crobar on January 23, 2008 - 12:10pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I'm not resistant. Nuclear fission is more modern than fossil fuel based technology. I don't see how you can argue this. I'm referring to the technology, not individual reactors. I'm aware that time passing makes things age.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
jokuhl on January 23, 2008 - 1:13pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I'll try again.

Advocating for the 'Resurgence of Nuclear Energy Development in the US' would be a 'Reversalist' position, since we've had a full generation's lull in New Reactors. It's an OLD position in the energy choices we face. It's soo 1960. Is that what makes it a bad (or good) choice? No,

The AGE of the technology does not describe its usefulness. IF Nuke is really right, then MAYBE we should 'Go Back' to building that out. IF wind is right, then let's GO BACK to that.

Calling someone, ANYone who wants to 'go back' to a previously discarded approach some kind of euphemism of a 'Retard' is unhelpful.

Bob

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
mdsolar on January 23, 2008 - 2:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Actually, in the case of photvoltaics you have this backwards. Fermi built a pile in 1942. The transister was invented in 1947 by Shockley, Bardeen and Brattain. Nuclear power is a much less sophisticated means of power generation, as can be seen from the term pile. It's tolerances are mainly to do with the extreme hazards. The tolerances for PV are actually much higher owing to the need for extreme purity of the semiconductor (eight nines). Only recently has it seemed possible to relax these a bit. However, the development of PV promises much better EROEI compared to nuclear power and much reduced safety issues. That PV appears simpler has more to do with the greater elegance of the physics compared to the rather crude production of dangerous mid-mass radionuclei involved in fission.

Chris

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
jokuhl on January 23, 2008 - 12:15pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Crobar;
Sounds like you do neat work.

There are just lots of 'New' and 'Old' aspects to everything. It's not just the technology, that might be old and get renewed- or the source, recently considered archaic, but 'rediscovered' and reapplied in a New Model. Just consciously making a change, even if it's to something our Dads left behind, like using a Pushmower (to get some 'cardio') or eating real Butter and Dairy delivered from a local farm, instead of 'Modern' Margarine and Soymilk-food-product from Monsanto, the act of choosing a change in how you do business is a Move Forward, which is muddied by the devaluation of terms like 'Reversalists'.

Putting sails on Cargo ships would be a move Forward, not back. They could still be using Bunker Oil when needed, could have their radars and GPS of course.

Bob

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
joule on January 23, 2008 - 2:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

crobar -

I happen to have a side interest in ocean wave power and began looking into it in some detail about four years ago. I even dabbled with an idea of my own, which upon further analysis turned out to be of dubious value.

The conclusion I sadly came to was that ocean wave power will never be more than a highly location-specific means of generating electricity. The locations with truly great wave power potential are not particularly abundant and tend to be away from highly populated areas. While ocean waves generally have a much greater power density than wind, their highly variable and oscillating nature makes the extraction of that power a daunting and very expensive endeavor.

However, the Pelamis people seem to be having some success, and I'd like to see them and other make a go of it. But it's going to be a long uphill battle.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.