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No offense, intended, but if you are suggesting that the only options available are capitalism or communism, then that is really rather simple minded.
What I was referring to is an argument made by some here that while we should not pursue ethanol on a commercial level, their may be role for it in keeping farm equipment running. This would likely be done under some gov't sponsored program, or perhaps some sort of guild type arrangement where financial returns are secondary.
Although I tend to side with Rapier, Patzek, Hall, Pimentel et al. on the economics (and EROI) of ethanol as a large-scale replacement for petroleum, I think biofuels may have a very long future ahead of them on a small scale, even centuries longer than petroleum. It doesn't take any special government sponsorship or control to let a farmer grow his own fuel; indeed, that was the entire point of Rudolf Diesel's engine, and the reason that it ran on peanut oil.
BTW, Patzek also believes that a farmer growing his own fuel, on a micro scale, IS sustainable and appropriate...as long as it never leaves the immediate locality where it came from.
I believe that biodiesel and ethanol, at a small scale, will be with us for a very long time. They just won't help much with peak oil. For now though, they can give us a little more time to transition to an all-electric transportation regime.
I wonder how much of your land you would need to set aside to grow enough of your own ethanol or biodiesel. that would cut a lot of oil needed to farm. you take your corn to the local ethanol plant and next year you don't need oil for your tractors.
"I wonder how much of your land you would need to set aside to grow enough of your own ethanol or biodiesel. that would cut a lot of oil needed to farm. you take your corn to the local ethanol plant and next year you don't need oil for your tractors."
We currently "hobby farm" about 60 acres. I could provide a good years supply of bio-diesel for our needs with 10-15 acres of rape seed. However if you have a bad year, drought, locusts or whatever; you may not get that harvest and be in a bind for the following season.
If it where so easy...
How about supplying the fuel for the fertilizer production, transportation, herbicides, insecticides, miners for the steel on your tractor, Oil production for your tires etc, etc, etc...
Once you really crunch the numbers you would have to devote your whole farm plus 20%...
Ethanol is a bad joke.
If you used a horse instead of a tractor you would only require 1/3rd of your farm..
We cannot go back to horses there is no way we can go to ethanol...
> If you used a horse instead of a tractor you would only require 1/3rd of your farm..
Do you have a substantive reference for this data point?
I can't say when, but we will go back to using horses eventually, especially if we don't conserve fuel sources by planning the weaning away from the ridiculous squandering due to automobility, which is a twentieth century historical flash in the plan. The way things are going, I foresee a terrible crash with respect to work and transportation needs currently subsidized by oil and other energy resources.
We probably should be Planning the conservation and population growth of draft animals so that we will not be left stranded with only human power to run our farms and deliver our goods. Such planning should be in the context of a larger plan that will make demand-side management the keystone, that is rebuilding our 20th century suburbs to make them walkable. We need to build and stock economic/community centers in all neighborhoods where all residents can get the things we need within walking distance. Let's bring the goods and services to the people rather than all this wasteful shopping behavior.
The assumption of automobility is absurd within a historical perspective.
Corn is a great converter of sunlight that is being grown on some of the best land in the world and in some of the best weather. It is the grain of N. America.
On a small scale a farmer would never make ethanol to run his tractor.
Show me a link to a small farmer raising and making his tractor fuel.
Why would anyone believe that small-scale alcohol production would somehow be more efficient than large-scale, when all industrial wisdom teaches us the opposite?
who said efficiency was the concern?
You are right - as long as transportation costs are a relatively minor factor. Once motor fuel becomes really expensive, subtracting out the round trip from farm to processing plant to farm might be enough to offset those economies of scale.
Unless I am very much mis-informed, most tractors run on diesel, not gasoline. Thus, it would be biodiesel, not ethanol, that farmers would need to produce to fuel their equipment. If they do have any gasoline-powered equipment, I am pretty sure that diesel-powered alternatives exist. Farmers would be well advised to ditch their gasoline-powered equipment and switch to diesel, as they will undoubtedly realize some fuel economies, and leave better options open for themselves in the future.
I think because of the high octane content of ethanol it could be used as a diesel engine fuel with some modifications.
"I wonder how much of your land you would need to set aside to grow enough of your own ethanol or biodiesel."
Less than the land needed to feed oxen or horses for the same work.
We worked through this on a series of posts last summer. The best I could determine, working with sunflowers one could probably produce enough biodiesel to power typical temperate-zone farm machinery with possibly around 5-10% of total cultivated acreage. I selected sunflowers because they have better oil yield than soybeans; while they yield a little lower than rapeseed, they are much easier for farmers across a broader area without previous experience with them to start growing. If need be, sunflowers could even be planted and harvested by hand, and the seeds could be pressed by hand. To my way of thinking, sunflowers thus are a good candidate for low-tech, alternative technology applications. To me, they were an answer to the question: How will the farmers keep their tractors running if there is no more oil? It is not the only possible answer, perhaps not even the best one. But I am reasonably satisfied that it is a feasible answer, and good enough of an answer that I need not stay awake at night worrying about how the tractors will stay fueled and running.
Obviously, we need a new economic paradigm other than the so-called free market Capitalism and the Communism of the so-called Soviet Union.
It is my considered opinion that we need a Planned Economy, peacefully arisng from the bottom up, to succesfully transition to a sustainable, equitable, peaceful world. To implement such an economic democracy, we need to get consensus on the basic principles that would guide our efforts.
I have identified the following principles as an effort to reach such consensus:
-ecology
-sustainability
-cooperation (economic democracy)
-equity
-community stewardship
-neighborhood improvement
-quality of life
-conservation
-peace and tranquility
-sufficiency
-production and access to essential goods and services (moving toward relocalization)
-primacy of the pedestrian/walkability/new urbanism
-economy and humanity of scale
-risk diversification
-life long education.
I invite questions and discussion.
Let me offer the following perspective with respect to ethanol (and Biodiesel):
Bio-fuels are a limited alternative and only within the context of a much less energy intensive civilization, and much better if we could produce it with byproducts and waste products. And there are opportunity costs associated with liquors and soft drinks. Dealing directly with such issues would also go a long way toward reducing health and waste problems. And there are the opportunity costs associated with food (and byproduct) production relative to the tobacco industry.
Would like to get your feedback.
Mike Morin
katerimarie@netzero.net
Wouldn't one of your principles be "no waste". Waste is a human invented term. Consequently, there should be no waste products, with which to produce ethanol. Doing so, implies that there are some local products that can be considered expendable, in the context of local sustainability (i.e, it is not necessary to recycle those products to maintain the local eco-system). Local, micro, ethanol production can only be considered sustainable if the external inputs equal the "waste" heat from producing and using the ethanol.
I would put your concern with waste streams and all attempts to minimize such under the consideration "ecology".
Thanks for your response.
Mike - while your set of goals are (to me) laudable. You have skipped over the single step that prevents all such imagined worlds from coming in to being. Your statement that "we need to get consensus on the basic principles" is precisely where the problem comes in. Saying we need consensus is exactly right, but you skip over how that consensus is to be reached and launch into the goals you want as part of the solution.
The reality is that all of your goals are already extant in the world. We don't need to decide upon them. What is needed is for them to become more important that the goals for which there is already a consensus. The current economic system is the consensus or else it would not be in place. Yes, you can argue about individuals, corporations, governments, etc. having more say in defining that consensus, but isn't that just part of the way of how people work in groups?
Thanks Shaman for your feedback.
Aye, how to get consensus is the rub. I'm trying to start by writing on these website forums and e-mailing folks that have similar perspective with regards to the supply side (peak oil) and the demand side (smart "growth", new urbanism).
Of course, my work is building on the work of others. It is hard to find people with similar viewpoints that understand what I am writing. Everyone specializes and builds upon their unique knowledge base. Most people on this website are specialists related to the supply side issues. People on planning websites tend to be locked into status quo positions and don't see the big picture.
The current economic system is not a consensus system. It is a system favored by an elite who manipulate the thinking (i.e. dumbing down) of the majority. We have a Capitalist "democracy" where we have choices to vote for a Capitalist elite with or without abortions for gay couples. Seriously, although I am a green socialist, I strongly favor the Democrats.
Seven years ago there was a lot of good discussion on the Internet from socialists and greens. For whatever reason, these people have moved on to other things. Of course, even at its peak, these folks were a tiny minority.
Take a look at www.culturechange.org/Morin.html
My goals are a starting point. I'd love to see feedback on the priciples underlying a Plan for a sustainable and equitable world, especially from those who share my values (Earth Charter, Ten Key Values of the Green Party, Declaration of Interdependence, Principles of the International Cooperative Alliance, eight-fold path of Buddhism, etc.)
Help me get the word out. I certainly invite and welcome discussion about how we can move the agenda forward.
Thanks.
Mike
katerimarie@netzero.net