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191 comments on DrumBeat: February 10, 2008

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George Asebius on February 10, 2008 - 3:27pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Just under the title, "Greener Pastures?", they state that the comparison is based on average household with income and family size etc standardized.

Can detached housing in the suburbs be made efficient enough, or must everyone move into a crowded urban environment?

In my view, the suburbs are never going to look good by comparison. Yes, it's possible they can be made to look ok by comparison with currently existing multi-family units, but remember that new large units are going to be redesigned also as time goes on to be very efficient.

On a personal note, I live in a high-rise condo with my own furnace in the unit. My neighbours are so profligate with energy use that even though I live in Canada, I don't need to run my furnace at all except on those half-dozen or so ulta deep-freeze nights that come every winter. So, in a dense urban setting your neighbour's waste can be your gain. If my neighbours ever turn green, it's going to cost me!

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 3:48pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Passivhaus technology works fine in semi-detached or detached houses, and uses little or no additional heating other than the warmth of appliances and people.

How much warmer do you need to be, and why would you need to be more efficient?

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George Asebius on February 10, 2008 - 4:23pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Where can we get some energy-use numbers on multi-family versus detached single family in the PassiveHaus design?

The wikipedia piece shows pics of large buildings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivhaus

If we get to a point post-peak when energy is cheap again on account of huge success with renewables, I agree. But before then, I suspect there won't be such a thing as too efficient.

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 4:39pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I don't read German and most of the detailed specifications will be in that language, of course.

You are of course correct that it is easier to conserve heat in an apartment block, but other criteria such as soundproofing may be harder, so the overall task may not be that much tougher.

In any case, they regulate by energy use per square meter, so to get the rating of Passivhaus then you have to meet that one way or another.

Here are a couple of links that may interest you:
http://www.trada.co.uk/news/view/5D2EEC93-C592-46D7-AC69-2D0337C7DAF0/
Note the Greenroof in the illustration.

German building standards are very high though, and not easy to duplicate in countries like the US and UK as the builders are not used to them.

The UK has alternative plans for highly efficient energy houses, which do not use mechanical ventilation and work to lower tolerances.

Unfortunately they use porches front and back to reach the standard, and so our already small floor areas in the house proper would be further encroached upon.

Here is the Passivhaus website:
http://www.passivhaus.eu/

More talk about Passivhaus:
http://blogsearch.google.com/?bl_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.housebuildersupdat...

And here Greenroof:
http://www.thenbs.com/topics/Environment/articles/greenRoofs.asp

Hope you find these links of interest!

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George Asebius on February 10, 2008 - 4:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Cool. Thanks!

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paleobotanist on February 10, 2008 - 5:35pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

DaveMart

Please can you post links to the following information:
"The UK has alternative plans for highly efficient energy houses, which do not use mechanical ventilation and work to lower tolerances.

Unfortunately they use porches front and back to reach the standard, and so our already small floor areas in the house proper would be further encroached upon."

I have followed the PassivHaus with great interest, but the necessity of mechanical ventilation (ie, the grid must be up) makes me very nervous. I'm in Saskatchewan at -40C with wind chill now and shelter is not optional. However, even now, the grid can certainly go down in winter storms, potentially for days at a time.

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 5:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Stupidly, I did not keep the URL, however, I do have a copy of the full pdf specs which I can forward to you if you give me your e-mail - I suggest you do so in the form of somebody at internet provider dot com to avoid spam bots

If you prefer not to do this, I enclose the main link to the Passivhaus site here.

However, it is my understanding that, rather like a church, there is a tendency to schism in the Passivhaus movement, complete with cries of heresy, and some would not consider a house not using mechanical ventilation to be part of the true faith.
http://www.passivhaus.org.uk/index.jsp?id=667

You should note however that the standards called for for the UK, a mild maritime climate, will be much different to your needs in Saskatchewan, which would need something similar to Scandinavian standards - I believe they also use mechanical ventilation, although presumably if you want to be independent of the grid you could perhaps rig a custom variation.

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 6:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

For security, you can get a temporary e-mail here:
http://www.jetable.org/en/index

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paleobotanist on February 10, 2008 - 7:02pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

jmcheval at sympatico.ca

To be frank, this 1954 house is so leaky (ice inside) that it is going to take an awful lot of insulation, new windows (single pane glass in Saskatchewan! %%$^^%$!!! What were they thinking!), and tightening before we have to start worrying about air exchange. We've added attic insulation to the last two houses we've lived in in Canada (none before us in old houses). Canada has alot of low-hanging fruit that can be picked fairly easily in purely pragmatic terms. The problem is that ~50% of the housing in the country is rental (no reference, sorry) so there is no incentive for landlords who typically don't pay the heat to upgrade, and well, they don't. Such legal problems prevent much obvious improvements in North America. Fortunately we now own, but if we stay here for more than a year, we have a very large amount of work to improve this building.

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 7:18pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I've e-mailed the info you want - actually, I managed to dig out the URL's for most of it, and they are in my reply to Black Dog, but I've mailed the rest.

Sounds like you have a long way to go! Single glazing in Saskatchewan, forsooth!

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 7:42pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I can't get an e-mail through to you - you should be OK with the links I've posted here though.

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DaveMart on February 12, 2008 - 6:42am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I don't know if it is practical in a rented property, but a air heat pump has now been designed for Canadian conditions, and is good down to -30C, the advantage being of course that it is a lot cheaper than a ground-source pump.
http://www.gotohallowell.com/technical.html
Hallowell International: Technical Datahttp://www.thestar.com/article/302300
TheStar.com | columnisthttp://www.thestar.com/article/302301
TheStar.com | Business | Costing it out Acadia vs. gas furnace and central airs | Electricity: will it be a gas killer?

You also get air-conditioning for the summer thrown in.

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Black_Dog on February 10, 2008 - 6:30pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

In the U.S., so-called "super insulated" houses have been around for more than 20 years. The PassivHaus looks to be quite similar to those designs. As I too looked for a description of the PassivHaus, I noticed the requirement for 300mm of wall insulation and 500 mm roof insulation, triple layer windows and tightly sealed envelope. That's roughly what I did with my house, which has a double wall of 5.5 inch thickness for an R value about 38 and about R value 49 thru the roof. I used triple layer (Southwall tm) windows on three sides and double layer low-e windows on the south wall. And, I've a large solar thermal collector as well.

The ventilation can also be done passively, I think, if one uses some sort of traditional heat exchanger. If the exhaust vent is high enough, perhjaps in an attic location, the natural difference in density between warm inside and cold outside air might provide enough flow in a pinch. Some heat exchangers require electric power to operate, even if set to work without fans though. I like the idea of an earth based pre-heater for the incoming air too.

E. Swanson

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DaveMart on February 10, 2008 - 6:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I've managed to track down the URL's for detailed specs of the Passivhaus standards for Euopean warm climates - by which they mean like the UK:
http://www.passive-on.org/CD/1.%20Technical%20Guidelines/Part%202/Passiv...
Part%202%20-%20UK%20Passivhaus%20in%20Detail.pdf

http://www.passive-on.org/CD/1.%20Technical%20Guidelines/Part%203/Part%2...
Part%203.pdf

And here is some info on warmer regions like Spain, but not as detailed:
http://www.passive-on.org/en/downloads/Passive-On-Long%20Description-v1-...
Passive-On-Long%20Description-v1-0.pdf

Hope this helps!

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191 comments on DrumBeat: February 10, 2008

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