195 comments on Peak Oil Overview - March 2008 (Pdf and Powerpoint available)
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Hi, DaveMart. That is a valid point of view that you are advocating. I'm choosing to disseminate the point of view I outline in my presentation.
Best,
Andre'
Actually Andre, you seek to present your case rather more strongly than you indicate:
Since there are other points of view which you characterise as valid, how and in what way is this a myth?
If you wished to make the rather weaker presentation that you thought it unlikely that we could ramp up in time due to crises points, well and good, although similar difficulties might also be encountered in the options you favour, but to seek to characterise the rather modest target of about doubling the yearly number of units of a non-fossil fuel alternative as a myth is surely a misrepresentation, and profoundly misleading to your audience.
Hi, DaveMart.
I understand that you don't agree with my line of thinking; let's agree to disagree on this because I'm not interested in exploring this with you. I'm very familiar with your writing from other posts and I think I have a good idea of what your opinion is. It is a valid opinion, I do not share it and I believe the points I raise stand on their own merits.
Best,
Andre'
Up to you, Andre, but to miss-state is to mislead, and it seems that you are prepared intentionally to present a case you cannot substantiate, which I would certainly not do.
You have actually made no attempt to demonstrate that your points stand on their merits - presumably you rely on your audience not being aware that the figures you give are not so very big or out of line with past practise at all, which since your argument is about scale will hardly do.
Unless of course you want to present your case as a myth.
Dave, I suspect that Andre wishes to encourage powerdown and a more "green", less energy intensive society for its own sake, and if advancing that goal requires intentionally misleading his audience about the scalability of non-oil sources of energy, he's more than happy to do that.
I certainly hope that you are wrong, and that upon reflection Andre will wish to give a more balanced presentation, and let the merits of his own case be only such as can be shown to be genuine - I would certainly wish to do that for any argument I wished to present, as is only fair to the audience.
People who seek to mislead usually do so because they are aware that their case is weak.
This seems quite rude Dave. Because Andre disagrees with you does not make him misleading. Perhaps he does not believe that nuclear power will scale rapidly enough to make up for falling supply. Or that promised technical advances will arrive on time.
The Hirsch report makes clear a 20 year head start is needed to avert economic difficulties. If peak oil is in 2010 then we don't have 20 more years.
Then why don't you put together your own presentation and offer it up.
It certainly is in no way intended to be rude.
I think if you re-read the argumentation in this thread you will see why this is phrased that way.
He may be correct that 52 nuclear plants or the equivalent in other power sources may not be possible to be built.
Alternatively, he may be correct that even if this can be done then as they would be producing electric, not liquids then it would still not be viable.
The point I brought up was that Andre presenting the possibility of such a build as a, in his words, 'myth', when in fact it is well within the same kind of order of build as that which has already been done in the past, which his audience may not be aware of.
And so, without in any way meaning this personally, I stand by my statement that this is grossly missleading.
He states clearly in his presentation that the problem is one of scale - please check back to it.
Had he presented the actual historic scale comparisons fairly his argument would not look very impressive.
DaveMart:
"The point I brought up was that Andre presenting the possibility of such a build as a, in his words, 'myth', when in fact it is well within the same kind of order of build as that which has already been done in the past, which his audience may not be aware of."
I would question your assertion that, because we once were able to build 18 nuclear power plants a year (back in the 70's when concrete and steel were much, much cheaper) that it is "well within" feasible limits to build 56 per year over the next decade or two.
I do not know your age or location, but I was college-aged and living in the heart of Commonwealth Edison territory (northern Illinois, USA) during their monumental nuclear build-out. I grew up about 10 miles from one of their plants, and within 50 miles of several more. It was fascinating, and horrifying, to watch the kinds of hiring practices they had to engage in to get enough workers to build their plants. Buying of union cards by unqualified workers was commonplace. Reports (from friends and neighbors who worked there) of on-the-job alcohol and drug-abuse were the norm. Short-cuts to keep on schedule were demanded, like the day my neighbor saw a 55-gallon drum slip and fall into a concrete pour of the containment vessel. He was told by his supervisor to "let it be, we have to stay on schedule". Perhaps you never read of the scandals regarding falsified QC x-ray records of welds...
My point is that it was very difficult then to get enough qualified workers to meet schedules in a safe and proper manner. I'd ask where you get the optimism to think we could do any better at 4 times the rate of construction.
That's always been my big concern with nuclear power plants: the need to execute to near-perfect standards (do you want a half-assed nuke near your house?) butting into the pressure to keep to tight schedules and avoid delays in getting them into the rate-base seems like a Really Bad Way to power our society. Well, that plus the market-distortions induced by the infamous Price-Anderson Act, of course :-)
Larry
Andre may be correct, my concern was solely that I felt that he is overstating his case - but I would point out that at the same time as the maximum nuclear build was taking place plenty of other sorts of plants were being built.
In an effort to avoid over-stating my own case I also gave the present Chinese coal build as the lowest I could reference, around the 52GW needed power per annum.
I have since checked more carefully and it last year it was around 90GW, admittedly that is a different technology but it perhaps goes to show that the size of the build needed is not unreasonable per se, especially considering we are talking about what is possible by the whole world, not just China.
To re-iterate, my comment is not about nuclear per se, but just to assess whether builds on the scale that Andre is talking about are as 'mythical' as he asserts.
Wind power, and perhaps solar and geothermal will take a fair chunk out of the needed build anyway, as will nuclear build in China, where regardless of what you or I think of safety they intend a build of around 10 reactors a year by 2020, and they are ahead of schedule - at 1.5GW a reactor that is over 25% of the specified build.
It is clear that he has greatly over-stated his case on the impossibility of a build on the scale needed.
For people who are following along, I'm going to point out that DaveMart is saying that it is within the realm of possibility that we (i.e. humanity) can build 52 nuclear reactors each year for 50 consecutive years for a total of 2600 nuclear power plants — all while we are experiencing Energy Descent.
For people who are REALLY following, I am talking not just about nuclear, I used the nuclear figure as it is convenient as it was given in the link in 1GW stations, so we actually need according to the presentation 52 GW of energy a year.
For reference last year China alone built around 90GW of all sources.
20GW of wind-power was built - the reason I did not use this is that you have to allow for capacity, so at, say, 25% that comes to 5GW of wind power last year in actual terms.
Nuclear reactors are now often around 1.5 GW, so you would only need 35 of them, even assuming no help at all from other sources.
At the height of the last nuclear build we were building around 18 nuclear reactors a year, so we would need about double that - minus help from other sources - and at the time they were simultaneously building plenty of other gas and coal stations and so on.
China alone plans to be building 10 nuclear reactors a year by 2020 - and they are ahead of schedule.
If the argument was that it will be difficult, especially in a world short of oil, that is fine, but to say that it is 'mythical' and it does not 'scale' clearly implies that we are attempting something way beyond anything which has been done before, which is clearly and simply untrue.
The presentation for that reason is tendentious and highly misleading.
I have over-stated things myself on occasion, we all do, it is human nature, but I always amend when this is pointed out, and present my case more conservatively.
I think Aangel has let his enthusiasm run away with him, to the extent of making unfair arguments without proper balance - trust your audience, and let them decide.
Hi, DaveMart.
I suggest that you're still not thinking through this.
Using an average build time of eight years, what makes it especially mythical is this:
Year 1: 52 starts
Year 2: 52 starts, 52 in progress = 104
Year 3: 52 starts, 104 in progress = 156
Year 4: 52 starts, 156 in progress = 208
Year 5: 52 starts, 208 in progress = 260
Year 6: 52 starts, 260 in progress = 312
Year 7: 52 starts, 312 in progress = 364
Year 8: 52 starts, 364 in progress = 416
Year 9: 52 starts, 52 completions, 416 in progress
The world would have to be building 416 nuclear power plants each year for decades if we were to go all nuclear and wanted to replace oil only through that means.
You are welcome to play with the numbers all you want (35 power plants per year instead of 52, etc.), you can throw in a few million wind turbines, perhaps a few tens of millions solar panels and I assert that any plan that you can come up with that would replace oil -- while oil itself is depleting -- will be mythical.
That's what I mean about not letting public discussions devolve into a battle of numbers. (Here is fine obviously.) There is no set of numbers grounded in reality that will have us avoid Energy Descent.
Hi Aangel,
I would like to emphasise that I simply feel that you have let your enthusiasm get the better of you, and no personal disrespect is intended.
The basic point is that you can fairly make the point that it will be a lot more difficult to carry out builds post peak oil, but as against that you have to take into account that they would be prioritising building power units much more than we had to in the past, when they did not really absorb a very substantial proportion of our efforts.
The build required, even on your terms, and I note that Nick, who is pretty well versed it seems in many engineering issues, has cast grave doubts on those, is really very modest compared to many past engineering efforts.
What you are essentially doing is just casting numbers in a fashion which says-'Wow! That's a big number!'
It is just as easy, in fact easier, to cast them in a light which would show them as being very small, for instance on the same numbers we could say:
'All we have to do, is for the whole world together to build around half of China's build for power, but move it across to other proven technologies like wind and nuclear - not to mention coming technologies like solar energy'
It really doesn't sound so daunting shown that way, does it?
The same thing applies to your 464 in progress numbers.
For a start, you have used build times which have some relevance to the west, as long as they are not in series production, but include lead-in times and preparatory work, when much of the build will happen in places like China, where periods like 4-5 years are more appropriate.
Secondly, you have assumed that the whole build is nuclear, when even at the moment around 10% of the build is wind power, where a time of two years or less is more appropriate.
Even using your figure of 464 under construction, with a population of 6.5 billion that would mean that one reactor would be under construction for every 13 or 14 million people on the earth - it doesn't sound so huge then, does it?
So there are plenty of numbers grounded in reality which would allow us to avoid energy descent.
The biggest obstacles are faulty risk assessment when the main problems are the lights going out and global warming, and even more importantly the fear held by many in the financial community that prices will suddenly drop for fossil fuels, as they did before at the end of the seventies, leaving them high and dry with expensive investments.
Your argument that the scale is too great simply does not hold water, and is well within previous construction experience.
Other arguments such as Gail or Leanan might argue (without putting words into their mouths) that financial breakdown and so on would prohibit it have much more substance, as does to some degree your own argument that shortages of fossil fuels will cause severe difficulties.
I look forward to seeing your comprehensive plan to address Energy Descent, then. Please submit it to the editors here and we can all study it.
Best,
André
This is to switch the grounds of the argument.
You have made specific statements that the needed build is 'mythical' and out of scale.
Myself and others have clearly shown that it is neither.
I have even suggested other lines of argument which are more soundly based.
All that I am asking is that you present your ideas fairly, and without unduly distorting reality to suit your case.
I find your case itself perfectly arguable, if perhaps somewhat unrealistic in it's assumption that we can cope by reducing consumption and switching to a new paradigm or whatever was the somewhat hazy end point, but dislike any misrepresentation at all as smacking of propaganda, and feel that we owe our audience the most moderate and conservative presentation of our case possible.
If you overstate and someone finds out about it they are very likely to dismiss your whole argument out of hand.
There is nothing wrong in saying that in your judgement such a build would not be possible, you know.
But of course the real problem is that you have overstated your case to yourself, as is clear from your statement that you would seek to drive interlocutor's from point to point, until there was no escape from your remorseless logic.
That is a problem when your case is based on assumption, not logic.
I don't know and neither do you for sure what is going to happen, nor are all the parameters which will influence it quite clear, and you are fooling yourself if you imagine that you have total insight.
Aangel, come back down to earth.
And it gets worse. All those "in progress" nuclear plants (or any other alternative power source) are pulling energy out of the economy. Build too fast and you don't have a power source, you have a power sink. Nuclear is estimated at a maximum build of 10% to just break even. To be a source of power, the growth rate would need to be lower. To supply anywhere near the percentage of power we get from oil, the growth rate would have to be a very low 1-3%.
Pearce, J.M. (2008)
‘Thermodynamic limitations to nuclear energy deployment as a greenhouse gas
mitigation technology’, Int. J. Nuclear Governance, Economy and Ecology,
Vol. 2, No. 1, pp.113–130.
Based on build time, wind is slightly better (very simple tech). Based on EROI, solar PV is far worse.
"All those "in progress" nuclear plants (or any other alternative power source) are pulling energy out of the economy. Build too fast and you don't have a power source, you have a power sink. "
You seem to be assuming a very low E-ROI. Everything I've seen has shown an E-ROI of 20-50 for wind, solar, nuclear. What numbers are you using?
I have been reading one paper after another on nuclear power and the EROI values are all over the map. Some are clearly biased low (they include things like interest which are not part of the construction cost) and some are biased high (they leave out steps of the fuel cycle). I recommend you read the paper itself, because he does a literature review and he uses a range of values for both the US and Europe.
Second, an EROI of 5:1 means that an energy source is consuming 20% of the energy it is generating. It does not take much growth in a capital intensive energy source to reach 20% even if the source initially has a 20:1 EROI (5% energy consumed in production).
Hall states that 5:1 is roughly the lowest that civilization can tolerate and this puts a cap on the investment rate.
Energy return of a fuel source is only the first steps in using a fuel, and margin must be left for all further steps. It could well be the margin that must be maintained is higher, like 10:1. I have some thoughts for how it could be calculated, but I have not done the math yet.
I don't really trust EROI calculations too much, it is too difficult to distinguish 2nd and 3rd order derivatives.
Fortunately, I don't really think it needs worrying about too much, as money is fungible and does a better job in the real world of showing costs, as no-one forgets to charge for their work.
In that connection it should be noted that fuel costs a small fraction of the power costs from a nuclear reactor, so providing no-one is giving away their services for free there would seem to be plenty of leeway.
So the worry would seem to be somewhere in the future, rather than in the present.
Should we be worried about that?
Not really, as we already have lots of ways to greatly increase the EROI of nuclear energy, which I won't insult your obviously considerable knowledge by belabouring, but include the obvious breeder reactors, the research at Idaho directed to raising fuel burn from 9% to 14%, annular fuel, re-processing, molten salt reactors which would increase fuel burn to around 50% from 1%, better conversion of the energy to electricity via thermionics,extracting uranium from seawater, or even the very low tech method of siting a buried reactor close enough to a town to pump the cooling water there and use it for heating, which if money is really tight and building a lot of reactors expensive in a constrained fossil fuel environment might be a preferred option.
You could also use a CANDU reactor or others to burn thorium.
Just like Hubbert, who felt that the answer to peak oil was to move on to nuclear generation, and that that power source is effectively unlimited, I don't think we need fear 'peak uranium'
" It does not take much growth in a capital intensive energy source to reach 20% even if the source initially has a 20:1 EROI (5% energy consumed in production). "
Well, it would take quadrupling the energy input. That's a pretty big change.
I've seen a lot of controversy over nuclear and solar PV (although I know enough about PV to confident that PV's E-ROI is high), but I haven't seen any suggestion that wind's E-ROI is not high enough. Have you?
It sounds an incredible stretch to me to worry about the EROEI of PV, but presumably solar thermal is safe just like wind from even the most fevered EROEI critique Nick, as it uses very similar materials to wind energy?
I would make a wild guess that CSP's E-ROI is roughly half of wind's, as wind costs about half as much per KWH, and they're roughly similar manufactured goods. OTOH, wind's E-ROI is pretty high, so I agree that CSP should be in good shape.
Yes, quadruple is a large change, but most assume that reinvestment can reach 100% It is a mistake to imagine energy source growth so fast it creates energy sinks and that society can survive in that fashion.
As for wind, I thought the TOD summery of wind EROI was quite good. Although no accounting was made for new transmission systems or load leveling costs.
I am not against any of these energy sources. I am in favor of finding the limits to how fast they can scale.
" most assume that reinvestment can reach 100%"
I'm not sure what you mean.
"It is a mistake to imagine energy source growth so fast it creates energy sinks and that society can survive in that fashion. "
I don't think anyone is proposing that.
Perhaps you're assuming that new forms of generation have to be powered by themselves. I can't see any reason to apply such a limit, when we don't apply that logic to existing infrastructure. We just ask: "how much is needed, and what forms of generation can provide it?"
Right now, for instance, electrical demand is growing at about 1.5% per year in the US, or about 7GW per year. In the past such new capacity would have come from fossil fuels as a normal part of reinvestment. That suggests a need for perhaps new capacity of about 15GW of wind, 4GW of solar, and 2GW of nuclear. At 30%, 20% and 90% capacity factors, respectively, that gives us our 7GW of average output, and at 15%, 75% and 95% peak capacity factors, respectively, that gives us our 7GW of peak output.
Pearce has placed his paper behind an internet wall, so we only judge it by what he tells us, and what he tells us sounds a lot like the often refuted "storm-smith" arguments. But in this case, I will simply refer to "storm-smith" who were unable, despite a who lot of fudging, to show that the Energy input for nuclear power came anywhere close to its outputs. You are not engaged in a serious argument, if you insist on using the title of an inaccessible paper, and saying the author argued such and such, if no one can read the paper. This is a black box approach to debate, and it is used by people who have contempt for rationality.
Hi Charles,
It has been my experience that State Universities are quite welcoming to the general public. There you may read the article in full.
My preference is to rely on peer reviewed literature where available. You are welcome to a different view.
JonFreise, we are talking about a highly obscure journal. What are the chances of finding it in the library of a second or third class university? No one seems to have actually read ‘Thermodynamic limitations to nuclear energy deployment as a greenhouse gas mitigation technology’. Basically we have a bunch of second hand reports that may or may not have originated from Pearce himself. We have no idea about what Pearce's sources are, what are the on which he based his analysis, or what conceptual tools he used. To argue that Pearce conclusions must be true on the basis of his unknown argument, is highly irrational. Nor is it rational to send me rummaging through university libraries, for a journal that may not even be in their holdings. If you know what Pearce actually argued, set it out. It is incumbent on you and Mr. Pearce to set out the case that he makes.
So far you appear to be arguing out of ignorance.
JonFreise, we are talking about a highly obscure journal. What are the chances of finding it in the library of a second or third class university? No one seems to have actually read ‘Thermodynamic limitations to nuclear energy deployment as a greenhouse gas mitigation technology’. Basically we have a bunch of second hand reports that may or may not have originated from Pearce himself. We have no idea about what Pearce's sources are, what are the on which he based his analysis, or what conceptual tools he used. To argue that Pearce conclusions must be true on the basis of his unknown argument, is highly irrational. Nor is it rational to send me rummaging through university libraries, for a journal that may not even be in their holdings. If you know what Pearce actually argued, set it out. It is incumbent on you and Mr. Pearce to set out the case that he makes.
So far you appear to be arguing out of ignorance.
The solution is quite simple, and I am sure that the Chinese already have a plan to do this. Build a very large factory. Im part of the factory build barges on an assembly line. Once the barges are complete float them over to another assembly line where you start ass4embling a reactr ib top of the barge, You move the barges down the assembly line as the reactor is assembled part by part. Once the reactor is finished it is floated out of the factory, and a tug boat pushes the barge to its final destination where it is moored and attached to the local grid. If the United States built 2750 Liberty Ships during world War II, The United States or China can build 52 reactors a year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship
Picturing this requires vision. Vision is something that is in exceedingly small supply on The Oil Drum.
You mean Homer Simpson needs re-training? ;-)
Here, he is saying Andre is misleading when Dave has spammed this board with so many exaggerations about nuclear power he was finally asked to stop turning every thread into a campaign for nuclear power. All while refusing to consider the limitations others brought up with regard to financing and TIME. He blithely ignores the economic downturn and the fact that the preponderance of evidence suggests a near-term Peak.
But he's not misleading anyone.
The goose and the gander.
Cheers
I have already had enough samples of your idea of 'debate' ccpo. I really can't be bothered reading any more.
Enjoy your prejudices.
My post has nothing at all to do with the desirability or otherwise of using nuclear power.
It was convenient to use the numbers from nuclear power stations for illustrative purposes for two reasons, it comes in 1 GW lumps and considerations of availability are not so difficult to work out as wind or solar, and secondly it is a more mature technology and so it was also easier to illustrate that the rate of build needed was perhaps not so greatly ahead of what we had previously done that Andre's assertion that it was 'mythical' appeared unsustainable.
Both wind and solar might well be preferred alternatives in many parts of the States, and certainly there are good possibilities to greatly reduce solar costs in particular, in which case once again the build would appear very do-able.
It is becoming very irritating Dave to have to wade through your inane arguments about academic minutiae regarding the absolute accuracy of someones genuine attempt to advance teh general awareness of peak oil. Not all of us are university educated gits, some of actually have to work for a living, producing all the stuff like oh...food for example nd computers and keep the internet running. The question is not if we need 35 or 2 nuclear reactors, the question is how do safely power down our societies and somehow make the transition to a low energy sustainable futre without anihiliating ourselves, or destrying the life support system that is planet Earth. Your constant nitpicking and criticisms are irritating and detract from the useful debates that concentrate on proposed solutions and merits and drawbacks.
This assumes that your thesis is correct, and have identified the question correctly.
Conservation is indeed the first priority in my opinion too, but perhaps such a large power-down as you seem to be saying is needed can be avoided.
It remains possible that you are wrong, and so it is worth checking that we are assessing issues correctly.
I cannot see the utility of miss-stating issues, and would be equally concerned if a position that I supported were so miss-stated.
It is not nit-picking when it seems that whole chunks in the chain of reason presented are unsubstantiated or poorly stated - the whole shebang may be wrong.
In fact, on occasions when I have over-stated my case, which happens to all of us, I have withdrawn and tried to be more accurate in a re-formulation.
A lot of dumb decisions are made by people making what according to you are 'genuine attempts' to do this and that - I prefer that the genuiness is expressed through a devotion to accuracy in as far as is humanly possible.
BTW, your 'mythical' number of nuclear plants that you say the whole world can't build, around 52 a year, is about the same as the number of coal plants China alone is building every year.
If it is all a question of scale, you have got your scales wrong, and if you are aware of that and are still using it in your presentations are grossly misleading your audience.
Please don't compare building coal power plants with building nuclear power plants. If you do, you'll look silly.
Of course nuclear plants are more complex and expensive than coal, but we are talking about scale, and the world is also a great deal bigger than China, which anyway plans to build at least 10 nuclear plants a year by 2020 in addition to wind and coal plants.
Therefore the analogy I used helped to give a reference scale - a candid mind would also see that I had already offered others.
No, you are talking about coal plants and nuclear plants. They aren't the same in any way, shape or form. not in cost, not in structure, not in public perception.
You keep saying something like France built N plants in X years. Somehow that N (12? 17? Don't remember) magically becomes 52!
Get off it, Dave. You're repeating yourself, insulting people for no reason other than your love of your agenda and then acting like the school yard bully and blaming the guy you first attacked.
Yawn
Cheers
The biggest thing Dave is failing to acknowledge is that the world, as a whole, is at the limits of its ability to produce large things like power plants. There just isn't enough spare concrete and steel production to be turned towards building 52 nuclear reactors a year. There certainly aren't enough trained engineers to work on the projects, and I don't want wet behind the ears college grads doing design work that the whole world's life depends upon.
Even if, somehow, we are able to avert the immediate disaster of our primary transportation fuel declining in production, it doesn't remove the overall problem. Our world is finite. We cannot continue to expand and expect it to support that expansion forever. Unfortunately, there's a lot of inertia in the growth of the past 200 years, and when it reaches hard limits the impact is goign to spectacular.
Huh? Although the technologies are radically different, the concrete and steel and so on for a large coal plant aren't THAT far out of line with that needed to build a nuclear plant, and China alone managed to build 90GW of the things last year.
Wind power takes far more of both, but in any case I was not seeking to argue the case for nuclear power, just that a build of the size Andre specifies is by no means 'mythical'.
Now it will be a lot tougher with limited oil, but the case that it is entirely impossible needs to be argued, not assumed.
As for the second point, that the world is finite, sure it is, but the question is when we actually hit the buffers.
In that context it is perhaps worth noting that Hubbert himself, on whom so much of the intellectual foundation of this site is built, felt that although resources of fossil fuels and more particularly oil were so limited that we would have to move on, the resources of uranium and thorium are so great that we could securely base an industrial economy on them, without worrying about a Hubbert's peak.
It seems strange that so many disregard this element of his thinking.
I agree that going forward we are going to have more problems than we have in the past.
I also agree that we are reaching limits.
It is hard for me to imagine us building 52 nuclear plants, but I wouldn't rule out entirely the possibility of some source of energy/electricity that might be available on a widespread basis.
I seriously doubt all of this would keep us close to where we are now. Electricity is not a liquid fuel. It doesn't keep the roads paved. It doesn't make plastics. It doesn't maintain the electric grid.
I expect the world will change dramatically, if for no other reason than the fact that any change has a long lead time. Building 52 nuclear plants would take at least 8 years (including finding sites for the plants, finding people, finding materials, etc.) even if it were done on an expedited basis. If the finances of banks and the federal government are in disarray because of peak oil related issues, I would expect it to take much longer than 8 years.
"It is hard for me to imagine us building 52 nuclear plants,"
It's important to realize that we don't need to build that much - maybe 10, and that's if we did only nuclear.
First, the calculations are incorrect. It assumes that oil BTU's and electrical BTU's are equivalent, and they're not. One electrical BTU can propel a vehicle 4 times as far as an oil BTU. Thus, for vehicle fuels (which are 70% of the problem), the numbers are 4 times too high. For the remainder, that ratio varies between 2 (efficient thermal electrical generation) and 4 (residential heat pumps), and is perhaps an average of 3. 1/4 of 70% is 17.5%, and 1/3 of 30% is 10%, for a total of 27.5% of what the chart presents.
2nd, we already have much of the electrical infrastructure in place: more than 4/5 of the capacity needed to replace US cars with EV's already exists. That reduces the new construction needed by another 80%, reducing our need from 27.5% to 5.5%! Now, that's transportation, which is only 70% of oil consumption, but you get the idea...
We have plenty of steel and concrete to build nuclear reactors. They use much less steel and concrete than underground coal mines, after all. We aren't building a million extra houses every year and that's a lot of concrete and steel.
Building 52 nuclear plants would take at least 8 years (including finding sites for the plants, finding people, finding materials, etc.) even if it were done on an expedited basis. If the finances of banks and the federal government are in disarray because of peak oil related issues, I would expect it to take much longer than 8 years. - Gail the Actuary
Gail you assume business as usual. If you want to build a lot of Nuclear plants quickly, first you build a factory, than you build the plants on an assembly line, just like Henry Ford built cars. Before Henry Ford the auto manufacturers built car kits. When someone bought a car, the manufacturers shipped a kit by rail along with a team to assemble it. The cars were assembled at the home of the purchaser. The building method was expensive and time consuming. The workers were not very productive, but were highly skilled and highly paid. Ford used low skilled workers, who only knew how to attach one part to a car as it came down the assembly line. Why should we build reactors the way people built cars before Henry Ford?
Absolutely. His messianic belief in nuclear is astounding. A useful expense of his time and energy would be in defining where nuclear is THE answer and advocating for that. I am quite certain such places exist. This, "Nuclear can save us!" bit is OLD, BORING and highly, highly unlikely.
One more time: near-term peak *alone* destroys the fantasy of an Earth-saving nuclear build-out.
Cheers
I want more nuclear power since it can create lots of prosperity post peak oil for Sweden, Finland, Denmark and so on. There will probaly not be powerplants built everywhere but keeping the light on for myself, my neighbours, the nearest countries and exporting products across Europe and globally is a good thing. I wish that everybody who can invest in long term power sources and productive enterprizes do so.
What parts of the US are investing and will continue to be prosperous for decades and manny generations?
Yesterday I read a new open paper for planned nordic grid investments and one of the serious planning scenarios is to prepair for the grid parts needed around 2020 if global warming accelerates to utilize likely additional hydro power and power industry north of the arctic circle. And I know that this is not wishfull thinking since previous plans have been followed thru and since the investments are productive they are financed by their utility and not debt.
I think the early post peak times locally will be a time of economical growth and change if people react in a good way.