Ok. I'll go out on a limb and make a case sugarcane ethanol. Of course it is no panacea, no energy alternative at this point is one, but it can help bridge the gap and promote even raise levels of income on some desperately poor countries.

Sugarcane ethanol does have an EROEI of 8 (against 1.4 for corn). Anyone who has sunk their teeth on a cane stalk knows how much sugar it packs. Sugarcane is an amazing little engine for turning sunlight into sugar/energy. Also in sugar's case you process the WHOLE stalk, not the seeds, and the crushed stalk than can be burned to generate electricity. This biomass, when properly used, is often enough to cover for all the Mill’s needs and even sell electricity off to the grid. Also, on the newer mills, the trucks and machinery run on a mix of diesel and ethanol, and even the crop duster planes fly exclusively on ethanol. This eroei has even room to grow. In 2007, energy from bagasse actually generated amounted to around 3000 MW (including the energy saved at the mill). The association of Sugar Growers estimates that by changing existing boilers the capacity could easily reach 7,6 thousand MW, and by optimum utilization of bagasse and straw the sector predicts a generating capacity of 10 thousand MW by 2012/13.
Second, at least in the case of sugarcane and Brazil, ethanol production has not seriously impacted food production: Brazil produces about 4.8 billion gallons of ethanol from sugar cane in 6.3 million hectares. This is less than 2% of the area available for agriculture in Brazil (this calculation excludes the whole of the Amazon). This number is even more relevant when we consider that about 45% of the sugarcane produced in the country goes to make sugar, not ethanol. The government estimates that production could expand by a factor of 10, without seriously impacting other cultures or the Amazon.
Third. Sugarcane ethanol can have a positive environmental impact. The whole production cycle absorbs almost as much CO2 as it produces. The utilization of ethanol as a blend in gasoline (25%) coupled with the utilization of ethanol on flex-fuel vehicles in Brazil avoids the emission of around 4.3 tons of CO2 in the atmosphere per year.
Fourth. Sugarcane, a tropical plant, might be used to mitigate the effects of Peak Oil especially in the poorer countries, in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Of the 50 poorest countries in the world, 38 are net importers of oil, and 25 import all the oil they consume. It is clear that the situation can only get worse as the prices go higher. Many countries spend more on oil imports than on public health. In these very poor countries, famine and what oildrummers call die-offs are already a reality, and famine was widespread long before food prices went up. What keep the poor in the Third World from eating from eating is not a lack of food, but a lack of income. It is symptomatic that food prices went up mainly in the wake of the rise of China and India, as their incomes went up, they consumed more and better food. (more recently demand for corn ethanol also increased prices, but the phenomenon is older).

I do understand the risks that converting arable land to fuel vehicles presents. There is an enormous possibility for abuse, and it is possible (indeed it looks likely) that the US government might be sending the wrong signals by supporting corn ethanol to the extent it is, given its low eroei and immediate impact on food prices.
Still, ethanol (especialy from sugarcane) might deserve a chance. It will most probably not be the silver bullet some claim it would be, but it can help bridge the gap after PO, and in certain conditions really help poorer countries in the tropics not only lessen their oil bills, but also improve living conditions and income. To this end, developed countries with temperate climates might consider dropping clearly sub-optimal bets on corn (US) and /or sugar beets in the EU, and instead invest in better technology for cellulosic ethanol , as well as efficient mills in third world countries.

Cheers

Also in sugar's case you process the WHOLE stalk, not the seeds, and the crushed stalk than can be burned to generate electricity.

So, onedip, what do you use to fertilize the soil if no part of the cane goes back into the soil?

Ammonia from natural gas, of course! We use fossil fuels to make biofuels!

No, wait, I mean... er... Well who cares anyway, Europe will get to say it's low carbon! Just like Italy boasts of being non-nuclear... while importing electricity from nuclear France. Ahem.

Oh please. Sugarcane is not corn and need far less fertilizer. You might know that sugarcane extracts nitrogen form the air. The nutrients from bagasse ashes are recycled too.

Se this PDF to educate yourself:
http://www.biofuelsnow.com/Ethanol%20From%20Sugar%20Cane.pdf

I guess these CSIRO guys don't know what they're doing, then.

Nitrogen fertilisers are used by the sugarcane industry to promote plant growth and high sugar yields. Whilst much of the nitrogen applied to fields is taken up by the sugarcane crop, a percentage leaches through the soil into groundwater tables or nearby waterways.

[...]

To support long-term sustainability, the sugar industry is seeking new ways to maintain productivity while minimising the environmental impacts of nitrogen fertiliser use.

Stupid scientists. There they are thinking that sugarcane requires nitrogen fertiliser, when according to Pholostan it actually adds nitrogen to the ground. They should listen to the random internet guy!

No commonly-used crop adds nitrogen to the soil. Legumes and some leafy vegetables have a fungus/bacteria on their roots which adds nitrogen; this is the reason for alternating wheat with beans in cropping, or introducing alfalfa and other manure crops.

Turning sugar cane into ethanol leaves behind a slurry which is typically disposed of in landfills. Bagasse ashes contain very little nitrogen, however are useful as potash (potassium, with nitrogen and phosophorous one of the three main artificial fertilisers in use around the world).

It's pretty simple, really. If you take something out of the soil, you need to put something back in, or there's less next year. Nowadays we decide to maximise production, taking a lot out, and putting it back in in the form of ammonia and the like. If those artificial inputs are absent, we'll have to put more back in by putting stalks back in the soil, manure crops and the like.

Using the entire crops for biofuels will mean we're taking more out than we put in. So either we use artificial fertilisers to make up for that, or we degrade the land and have to get new agricultural land by deforestation.

Hmm. Or learn how to make biofuels out of beans...

Stupid scientists. There they are thinking that sugarcane requires nitrogen fertiliser, when according to Pholostan it actually adds nitrogen to the ground. They should listen to the random internet guy!

Where do I claim that? Please do tell. What I said was thet sugarcane need far less fertilizer compared to corn.

Corn needs about 160 lb/acre, sugarcane needs about 90 lb/acre. And in the case of sugarcane about 70% of this need can be fullfilled with biological nitrogen fixiation. If you actually read the pdf you would know this.

Sugar cane fixes Nitrogen

• Different from corn, sugar cane may obtain up to 70% of its need of Nitrogen directly
from BNF BNF (Biological Nitrogen Fixation). This is accomplished by four types of
diazotrophic bacteria, living inside stalks (endophytic) and not at the roots (symbiotic):

• Gluconacetobacter diazotrophicus, by far the most important
• Herbaspirillum seropedicae
• Herbaspirillum rubrisubalbicans
• Burkholderia brasiliensis

• They require good management of micronutrients, specially Molybdenum

•In organic cane cultivation, intense recycling of materials and the absolute absence
of burning process, permit self-sufficiency in Nitrogen, the most expensive fertilizer
for chemical corn cultivation, highly dependent on natural gas for urea synthesis

...intense recycling of materials and the absolute absence
of burning process, permits self-sufficiency in Nitrogen...

So, philistine pholostan, if you use the whole plant, you are not recycling any part of it, and especially not "intensely recycling" it. Ergo, self-sufficiency in nutrients is not possible. I'm glad we agree. So in the end we need fossil fuel inputs, or other inputs, as that pdf document shows (nitrogen is only one input).

It's only about 30 pounds per acre. You can easily source enough hydrogen gas from pyrolysis or gasification of a tiny fraction of the bagasse harvested from a field to produce this ammonia if you feel compelled to do so.

I thought that was obvious...

www.biofuelsnow.com

•Sugar cane fixes Nitrogen
•Different from corn, sugar cane may obtain up to 70% of its need of Nitrogen directly from BNF (Biological Nitrogen Fixation). This is accomplished by four types of diazotrophic bacteria, living inside stalks (endophytic) and notat the roots (symbiotic):
•Gluconacetobacter diazotrophicus, by far the most important
•Herbaspirillum seropedicae
•Herbaspirillum rubrisubalbicans
•Burkholderia brasiliensis
•They require good management of micronutrients, specially Molybdenum
•In organiccane cultivation, intense recycling of materials and the absolute absence of burning process, permit self-sufficiencyin Nitrogen, the most expensive fertilizer for chemical corn cultivation, highly dependent on natural gas for urea synthesis.

Brazil•Vinasse–12.5 liters per each ethanol liter distilled•This very important residue recycles water and nutrients to soiland so it pays very well for the extra energy invested in pumping itRecently cut sugar cane sprouts vigorously from under the layer of straw left over the soil surface by the mechanical harvester. This is another great characteristic of sugar cane, once weeds can’t thrive under the straw layer. For organiccultivationparticularly, these layer acts better than the best of all herbicidesused in common chemical cultivation

Ok, so with a fully organic approach, in areas of sufficient rainfall and heat, you can get some ethanol, after making place for this crop by clearing away other crops and wildlife reserves, forests etc (because that is what will happen in places like Africa, believe me, and I know because I am an exiled white African). Whoop de do. It leaves me cold. In Africa this crop will be used by the rulers or sold to the Bazungu (white men), and the peasantry will starve. So what's the point of your argument anyway? Is this the answer to peak oil? You make me laugh. Hah ha ha ha.

I have no argument against sustainable tropical sugar cane ethanol made for local consumption. Alarm bells begin to ring when folks start talking about fueling the whole world on this.

And, I would submit this is exactly the direction we're heading, Euan.

Look up what Renergie is doing. Small ten, or fifteen, mgpy plants fueled with sweet sorghum from local fields.

I contend that there are very few counties in the U.S. that could not produce thirty, or forty million gal/yr of ethanol. Obviously, some in the Midwest can easily deliver hundreds of millions. Those desert areas (S. Nevada) that can't, can trade copious amounts of Solar Electricity, or wind, or waste, or wave, etc.

I believe this model could be extrapolated out to the world. Of course, a country such as Brazil, which has at least 150 Million Acres of fertile land lying fallow, and a fairly small population will probably export some percentage of their production.

Those desert areas (S. Nevada) that can't, can trade copious amounts of Solar Electricity, or wind, or waste, or wave, etc.

I'm sure that White paper you are working on covers the costs of the metal used to conduct electrons from the desert to non-desert areas.

When you gonna get that White paper done VS posting on TOD?

Brazil produced more ethanol than anyone, yet its oil consumption has been rising.

There was less gas mileage with ethanol than with gasahol 80/20 gasoline to ethanol ratio.

Ethanol is not good enough to relieve Brazil of its need for oil. Brazil was one of the fastest growing oil producers in the world and had the second largest oil reserves in South America.

Should have written, "Brazil is one of the largest producers of ethanol."

I have made exactly that point several times, only the other way round: the fact that biofuels (any kind) cannot replace a significant part of fossil fuels GLOBALLY does not mean that they cannot (and will not) replace a significant part of fossil fuels in several countries with high biofuel production potential.

Specifically, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, etc. have much lower liquid fuel (and energy in general) usage per capita than OECD countries. Therefore if they maximize the allocation of THEIR agricultural potential into biodiesel production (plus sugar cane to ethanol) for THEIR own use, they will be able to keep running the most important parts of THEIR current economies in the face of a future decline of global oil production (and a much harder decline of global oil exports), and it is just not realistic to expect they will forego that possibility.

Have a look at per capita oil consumption. Brazil uses roughly the amount that Argentina, Turkey, and Romania do. I've not heard that people consider Argentina, Turkey and Romania to be eco-friendly countries. It also uses 1.8 billion cubic feet of natural gas daily, and an eighth of a tonne of coal per person annually, comparable to Mexico or the Phillipenes.

So it seems like when you add biofuels to a country, it keeps using fossil fuels and uses the biofuels as well. It's sort of like getting a rainwater tank, but drawing the same amount of mains water, just using the rainwater as well.

When you give people a new energy source they don't give up the old one. The old one will only be given up if it becomes inconvenient - with scarcity or heavy taxes raising the price far beyond that of the new energy source.

Anyone who has sunk their teeth on a cane stalk knows how much sugar it packs.

Ever chewed on a bit of sweet corn stalk?