266 comments on DrumBeat: March 24, 2008
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266 comments on DrumBeat: March 24, 2008
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I read the article and it basically said nothing new. It looks like the writers read the Drum, but went out to get naysayers to give equal weight (Lomborg). In simple terms they talk about Energy Developments that occurred in the mid 1800s as an example of man's technology in reducing the price of whale oil. I will admit there are advances everyday in biological technology, but the WSJ seems to equate the development of Kerosene in the same reference point as today's technological advances. It does not compute, but maybe I am missing something.
The big LTG punchline did belong to Mr. Stiglitz who said that "people will have to change their behavior more than they did after the 1970's oil shock".
I am not seeing that level of anxiety in the public discourse.
The disconnect between man and the size of his aquarium is complete.
I read the article and it basically said nothing new.
It's not what they are saying is new -- it's that they are dealing with it that is new.
It is either ostensibly deal with it or look eminently stupid hiding what has become terribly and hideously obvious.
They have their crotch stuck in a cleft stick and it is publish or be pranged.
As shocking as the WSJ giving any credence to oil limits is what John Hofmeister, President of Shell, U.S. said last week on CNBC (video here at TOD). He said that Simmons was right on peaking oil given his narrow set of hypotheses i.e. conventional oil from traditional producers. So he indirectly admitted imminent conventional peak!
But then he said that Simmons and peak oil theorists don't take into account the vast new world of new liquids being added to the mix. Well excuse me, but we do consider them. We consider them a lot. He apparently doesn't read much at TOD.
There is indeed a vast new world of liquids being stacked upon the conventional oil curve, and they pretty much all have the same problem - EROI. As global peak is approached, you naturally have a declining EROI of conventional oil where you have an ever-increasing portion of oil being used to retrieve more oil. That process is being augmented by diversion of conventional oil to the manufacture of substitute liquids of dangerously low EROI.
Dangerous? How can EROI be dangerous? If you look at how EROI proceeds through the peaking process as shown by a chart Nate Hagens has shown here and compare that to what's going on with the new liquids, you see this:
The unconventional add-ons aren't exactly the "Y" in the first chart being that it isn't all EROI=1 where equal amounts of energy are used and created. But there is enough EROI drop across the divide between the crude of the past and that of the new liquids to create a similar effect.
Does dropping the EROI really warp the curves that much? Well, as Robert Rapier showed in his EROI Review of 3/18, when you go from an EROI of 20 (old fashion crude) to an EROI of 1.3 (corn ethanol) you wind up having to make over 60 times the volume of the lower EROI source to net the same energy as the higher source. That means that less than 1/60th of all that added production is actually contributing to the net energy curve! But not to worry; all of the ethanol contributes to food inflation.
The danger part about EROI is the cliff that is camouflaged and seemingly set as a snare for our time:
You get a similar warp, though not nearly as severe, going from say a 30 average EROI to the left of the peak to say a 5 average EROI for the composite of ethanol, NGL, deepwater, oil sands, and shale to the right of the peak. It makes a vast difference whether you go to an EROI of 5 or to an EROI of 2 or 1.3 from the traditional high net oil of the past as can be clearly seen on the cliff chart above. Since so much of the new alternative liquids being stuffed into that critical add-on region are thought to have EROI right around the super-critical 5 area, perched right on the edge of the cliff, it is imperative that we know accurately what the EROI is for our various options. Things like the deepwater oil, which has EROI by some estimates less than 5, could easily be nudged over the cliff to join corn ethanol as yet another costly boondoggle. EROI should be the number one subject of research and legislation in Congress instead of nonexistent in their discussion or understanding.
Wow, that's fascinating ( in the same way watching a car wreck is fascinating : (
Errol in Miami
Thank you for posting these. As I said on RR's post, and have tried to hammer home elsewhere, the EROEI cliff, well illustrated by these two graphs, should be as much front and center as the Hubbert curve itself. Taken together with a growing population, the bumping up against other limits (water, soil, NPK etc...), globalization increasing the efficiency with which Empire can turn everything into a consumer product, and the expectation that growth will always provide more of everything for all of us, declining EROEI is why I see a global trainwreck coming. Catton, Tainter, Albert Bartlett, each elucidate a key piece, as in another realm do Derrick Jensen, Jerry Mander, Chellis Glendinning, Daniel Quinn, Richard Manning and others. Perhaps Kunstler says it best, "We'll keep on doing what we're doing until we can't, and then we won't." Not long to wait, now.
Netfind
Standing, Clapping. That's one of the most impressive posts for the number of words and graph that I have seen on TOD.
Conclusion:
We've been had
Carter and his sweater speech will, I believe, mark the point of when things needed to be started in earnest.
Instead it was "Morning In America" and everything seemed seemed to go to warp speed as if the world was on acid.
Raygunomics was the worst thing to happen to this country.
Your EROI presentation is meaningless in the context of liquid fuels production, which are an energy source by accident; their value is in being an energy carrier. If coal, wind, or nuclear power are utilized in hydrogen production, the EROI is below one but civilization doesn't grind to a halt. Likewise if some lower value energy source is turned into higher value oil, it simply doesn't matter as long as there are lower cost energy sources for doing the oil production; There are and will be for as long as we care to plot into the future.
You're better off charting oil returned on oil invested than spending so much time in the academic rathole of weather liquid fuels are falling off the over unity energy production cliff. They will, and civilization will continue on simply because the alternatives are demonstrably productive for what may as well be forever.
Hello Dezakin,
I respectfully submit that I believe you are confused on this subject. I will give two energy sources, both with an ERoEI < 1.
1. A gallon of water with a hole in the bottom.
2. A bag of flour with a hole in the bottom.
Upon your request, I will gladly drive you far into our blazing summer desert so you can confidently demonstrate the flawless logic of your above posting. How about this July when it will be 115+ degrees Farenheit in the shade, and of course, much, much hotter in the full sunlight?
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
You're neither being respectful, nor are you submitting anything, nor are these even what would be classified as energy sources. You're just being an ass. How about actually adressing the argument.
Hello Dezakin,
Thxs for responding. Water & food are vital energy sources to me and all life, but please feel free to dispute this.
Oxygen, fuel, and a spark are vital to all ICE engines, but you may disagree. If you can't get fuel to the engine because the gas can has a whole in the bottom [again ERoEI <1]--the car is dead.
Electricity is a vital energy source for an electric-motor or to charge a battery. If the electric cord cannot reach far enough into the desert [again ERoEI <1] to recharge the PHEV-- the car is dead.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Water and food are products, not energy sources. Stop playing the game of metaphors.
If an energy source runs out, it runs out and your energy return is below 1. I'm not sure if thats what you're trying to get at with you're rather insulting attempt at wit, but the whole point is we aren't running out of energy.
You say I'm confused. Your meandering nonsense isn't exactly illumination, and it looks like you don't actually have any point. Stop being such a twit and adress my arguments if you have anything to say.
"Water and food are products, not energy sources."
try this experiment:
stop eating food and see how much energy you have.
The argument with EROEI for FFs is that you basically burn more gas in the engine of the bulldozer to dig it out of the ground than you actually get back for you efforts.
eg. You have to burn through a 20 gallon tank of deisel to run a drilling rig. Then you burn 1000 gallons to run the pump for a total of 1020 gallons spent. The oil you get out of the ground only gets you the equivalent of 1019 gallons of deisel. You've wasted your time, and a gallon of deisel. Of course the process is more complex than that.
However, if you built a windmill powered pump or some sort of solar powered rig, then maybe that would be competetive with energy carriers like hydrogen.
If you read what I wrote originally, thats my point. Liquid fuel is our product, and its value far exceeds the energy value alone.
You wrote:
Wow, where did you get those idiotic ideas? Sure, the Earth is about 72% covered with oceans full of water. Now, try drinking it. The clean water that land plants and animals (and people) require comes from solar energy, which causes the water to evaporate from the oceans and move over the land, falling as rain or snow. All of the "food" people consume is derived from plants, which are solar collectors, though inefficient ones. Thus, all civilization is solar powered.
I'm afraid you have gained a seriously flawed understanding of reality. One wonders where you found such a poor education.
E. Swanson
In discussing powering industrial civilization, we don't treat food as an energy source and often regard it as an energy sink, especially when delving into discussions over energy costs of fertilizer production, irrigation, and other mechanized farming methods. In our accounting we rarely use beasts of burden or slaves for direct energy inputs either. Water itself isn't an energy source at all, its simply a solvent.
We don't regard food as an energy source for the same reason we don't regard hydrogen as an energy source. Its at best a carrier, and its component as an energy carrier is a tiny percentage.
One wonders how so many can be so flippantly insulting and ironicly ignorant at the same time.
Gasoline and electricity are not energy sources either. But, food is stored solar energy, a fact that is not usually included in energy computations. Much of the discussion about energy only includes industrial scale concentrated energy, while ignoring the diffuse solar energy that is the foundation of everything which civilization does. People are solar powered. Don't you agree?
As for water, aren't you forgetting the fact that the water in a river which turns a turbine is there because of the solar energy which powers the hydrological cycle? And, the solvent properties of water depend on it's purity, also a function of the source of the water taken from the hydrological cycle.
E. Swanson
If you stopped playing semanting games you might realize you're arguments are orthoganal to the point I originally made.
But instead you can discuss the energy density of water when tumbled down an accresion disk of a black hole. Have fun with that.
I love it when a troll throws out a red herring, mentioning big words like "orthogonal".
The issue is not cost, it's energy. EROEI is not the same as ROI and using lower dollar cost energy to provide energy forms with higher value does not change the fact that once EROEI approaches 1.0, there is going to be some big changes. For one thing, the present dollar prices for the lower cost energy input is not fixed, but the result or previous market conditions. Those market conditions will change and the prices of all energy sources will rise, reflecting the overall shortage. Using relatively cheap natural gas to extract oil from Canadian tar sands is a prime example, as the price of natural gas climbs, so will the cost of the oil produced by that method.
But, the fact remains that solar energy is the ultimate primary energy source for life on earth and if we transform the limited land area available for food production into providing liquid fuels, we will all suffer.
E. Swanson
You're arguing past me.
We value oil products as an energy carrier first and as an energy source second. If it takes more energy to mine these oil products than is released in their combustion, that doesn't necissarily mean that the well is shut down as long as there is an external energy source (the sun, nuclear, coal, natural gas) to drive the mine.
As a note, I'd like to point out that Gasoline (and all petroleum fuels) are actually carriers for solar energy as well. They are Fossil Fuels, meaning they are made out of plants and animals who were solar powered, and all that solar energy got concentrated and stored in the ground over millions of years.
Wind is solar power, since the sun causes pressure gradients and thus air flows (wind). Hydro-electric is solar power because, as you point out, the sun powers the hydrologic cycle. The fact is, >99% of the energy that runs our society in some shape or form comes from the sun. The only exceptions are (that I can think of) are tidal (powered by the rotational energy of the Earth/Moon system), nuclear, and geothermal (which, according to some theories, may also be nuclear).
If you take those three sources out of the equation, and assume fossil fuels have run out, the maximum available energy on the surface of Earth is equal to the irradiance of the sun times half the surface area of the Earth (since the world is always about 50% day 50% night, it comes out to about 1.74x10^17 Watts). So food, wood for burning, falling water, electricity from PV cells, and wind are all just carriers for that solar energy.
Water and food are products, not energy sources.
Errr no.
Food (or ex food) has ALWAYS had the option of being an energy source. Grains that have been overridden with bugs that man is no longer willing to sort out the infected from the non infected has been subject to burning for heat or conversion into alcohol.
Water is a 'product'? Only in the sense the man is now used to buying water. Even buying water wrapped in oil - be the water flavored with sugar or the waste product of yeasts.
Now, if Man makes a Mr. Fusion (as per the movie back to the future) then, like the accreaction disk - water would be a power source.
Stop being such a twit and adress my arguments if you have anything to say.
I'll be sure to remember your post next time I respond to one of your pro-fission posts and you opt to not address the issue of the day. Or perhaps you normally respond like this an Leahan deletes them (per the comment about the civility level dropping).
Bob,
As becomes clear every time EROEI is discussed here (too infrequently, IMO) there are tremendous psychological barriers that prevent many folks from grokking this very simple concept, and its huge implications. Your valiant efforts are probably better spent elsewhere than trying to convince those who simply refuse to see, though I applaud your ability to approach the debate with humor, grace and civility. And thanks for keeping NPK issues on our collective radar as well.
Clifman
How is it possible that you don't understand the domain of importance of energy return? Its important in primary energy production. Centralized power plants can't compete with low energy returns because they're primary energy producers, but fuels can because they're energy carriers. What do you disagree with here?
Centralized power plants can't compete with low energy returns because they're primary energy producers, but fuels can because they're energy carriers.
So liquid fuels (which came into existance because of photons interacting with plants) is a 'energy carrier'.
So why then is a coal fired plant an 'energy producer' - as the main product used to create heat in the process of energy production is from photons interacting with plants?