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176 comments on EROI Post - A Response from Charlie Hall

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jokuhl on April 4, 2008 - 7:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Camel,
With all due respect, whatever else he may be doing, Dr. Hall did THIS. He has been writing on this and related topics for three decades, telling not only his kids, but his people, through his students. And, as he tells us, many of the questions around EROI were dealt with then, only to sink into obscurity and require relofting and reconvincing today. Truly Sisyfean task.. discouraging, probably, and a rough expense of their/our energy, to boot.

What if you discovered that he drives a Suburban? Does that change the issues in his research? My mom just bought an SUV, cringing at the choice, but it was the vehicle which would carry the tools and the wood to/from our land, and would also carry my 4 yr old on the days when she has her. It was the 'averaging' of her Honda and her Partner's Van.

Dr. Hall might have a very good list of 'what we all should be doing', but I'd bet you've seen that list before, as have I. We all have tasks to take up, we all also get to do some of the thinking, and to try out some brash notions that might not even work, because we have to try.

The Messengers are out there trying to do their job. Hansen, Gore, etc.. We might have to just make a decision ourselves as to what our jobs will be.

Respectfully,
Bob Fiske

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Nate Hagens on April 4, 2008 - 8:05am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Bob
Very well said.

I can't speak for Dr. Hall, but I doubt he, nor any of us have all the answers. ALL the answers require that we have macro, mezzo and micro scale recommendations and strategies. Though I internally know its a longshot, TOD is working at the macro scale - trying to educate people about the really big picture, with hopes this has large scale changes on the regional and national and levels. Down at the ground level is a different discussion entirely - TOD has not gone that route in its postings, though many of the commenters circle around that local/individual strategies.

We are conditioned to support and rally around the 'in' group, whatever that group may be. The more I learn about human behavior, both from reading, and observing, I think the only true hope for changing things on the macro/global scale with respect to resource depletion and climate change is to make us all part of the same 'in' group. I can't imagine anything that would do that short of an alien invasion. Even nasty climate change or peak oil blackouts, etc. would pit country against country for resources, etc. We need collective action on the grandest scale, yet under the surface it will remain every man, neighborhood, region, country for itself. Just imagine once net energy analysis and biophysical economics make it into national politics - we are going to go through ALL these same arguments again. One hopes there is starting to be a cadre of energy/environmentally literate folks around the world, perhaps from reading websites such as this one - because as you say, each of us has to make a decision of what our jobs will be to steer our paths, collectively and individually.

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baloghblog on April 4, 2008 - 5:31pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Camel,

What Prof. Hall is "doing" is educating the next generation of workers, managers, environmentalists, and (yikes!) politicians. He challenges all of his students, from all backgrounds, to consider the future restraints in energy availability in all of their disciplines and future work. He not only is teaching students about peak oil, EROI, limits to growth, etc. but gives them the tools to challenge others, especially those with dogmatic neo-classical economic beliefs. He challenges students to question what "sustainability" truly means, and his work on the nation of Costa Rica demonstrates the difficulty in maintaining population "sustainably" even for a relatively small agricultural country.

My fellow students in class want the same answers from him as you do. Many of them (including myself) occasionally walk away agreeing in principle, but searching for answers.

Dr. Hall learned about Peak Oil in the 1970s and decided not to have children (see his bio on his site). He doesn't advocate this for everyone, but noted his personal choice in the matter. Certainly him having no more children has a significant impact on the world, and negates the argument above.

Debating who can call call them self an "expert" is a game of "whose CV is longer", and is a waste of time in my eyes. I suggest that you read his efforts on biophysical economics.

I for one am happy to take part in the discussions in his classroom. In a way I wish the type of conversation that is taking place here could be done face to face. It is easy to flame someone anonymously, it's another to be able to defend your position in a discussion.

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Cold Camel on April 4, 2008 - 6:09pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Baloghblog,
Excellent reply!
He’s educating- the next generation. Yes!
Sustainability- it’s not easy. Yes!
He’s used to questions for answers. Yes!
No children- Now I know.
He’s an expert- Agreed.
Face to face discussions- I strongly agree.
I hope my comments were not perceived as flames. Argumentative, maybe, but I try to learn from just about everyone. I envy your classroom time with Dr. Hall. I’ll put my hand down now.
Cheers
Cold Camel

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Cold Camel on April 4, 2008 - 5:43pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Bob and Nate,
Spot on brothers!
Bob, I would find it quite interesting to find that Dr. Hall was driving a Suburban, in a very non-judgmental way. (I have no idea what he drives) My personal judgments often vary dramatically with TOD group wisdom, his might also.
In my opinion, Dr. Hall did such a good job thirty years ago; he is wasting his time to cover the same material again today. But I eagerly await his discoveries, as a moth to the flame.
I personally believe that I should quit reading the comments on TOD. I haven’t learned anything useful in two years, other than that I pretty much know everything I need to know. TOD sucks my brains out and leaves me exhausted. With all due respect to the TOD intellects, both TOD and the TV are brain and time sucking machines.
Nate, I find data useful. I’m full up with analysis. You guys run circles around me, so I take your conclusions and run with them. I enjoy stretching models into the the fuzzy where I can contribute.
Here’s one: Jarvons Paradox works both ways. I’m not just talking about the decline in EROI that will exceed technological improvements, but rather a decline in consumption efficiency. Get it?
Jarvons Paradox in reverse: That as total production of a resource declines, the efficiency with which that resource is used will also decline. This is a big rut-roh that will be supported by observations.
Amory Lovins is wrong. Each barrel of oil produced during the decline will provide less happiness than before. Hording is a perfect example.
Cold Camel

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176 comments on EROI Post - A Response from Charlie Hall

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