![]() | DrumBeat: May 18, 2008 | The Oil Drum | A quote from Obama in Oregon..."We can't eat as much as we want...and then expect other countries...to say OK" | ![]() |
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I would love an explanation of how speculators run up the forward month contract. Before the end of the month they would have to sell the contract or take delivery. Without a way to store it I don't see how the speculators drive the price as the month ends. I see how there could be a bubble in something permanent like real estate or stocks or storeable like silver but the key feature of futures contracts is that they expire and both parties have to sell out of their positions or go ahead with physical delivery.
we have a post around here on how the futures markets work, and Jeff Vail has a post coming next week on backwardation.
The term "speculator" is probably too broad when used by the media - they should use "investor" instead. A lot of investment banks like Morgan Stanley are big players in the physical oil market (they own Transmontaigne). They are the real speculators when they take physical delivery and then store it in the hopes of selling it at a higher price in the future.
Exactly - speculator driven price increases have to be accompanied by increased holdings of the physical goods associated with the contract. Stocks are not building significantly QED no speculative bubble.
I'm stunned that so many OD'ers are buying the spin being put out by CERA and OPEC that speculators are driving this price run up. Normally around here we're a bit more skeptical than that. But because this line is 'easy' and 'convienient' it's been picked widely by the media and other commentators.
Hi Jaymax,
Have you a source for your statement: Stocks are not building significantly. Thanks.
From Paul Krugman in the NY Times
I understand that is not a primary source, so take it for what it is worth. I think, however, that a lot of people are putting too much emphasis on what is essentially noise in the US inventory numbers or (worse) reading US gasoline inventories as proxies for oil inventories.
Edit: On a personal note, I made a trip last fall to visit my parents in FL. We took peak oil videos and literature with us and spent the week talking about the coming rise in oil prices. They are Fox News Republicans, and I wanted to get to them before Fox propaganda turned to peak oil.
Well, they came to visit us this week. Instead of "Gee! You sure were right about oil prices!," my father last night said, "It is all speculation. If they reign in speculation, the price of oil will be cut in half." *sigh* I think my mother gets it, but I'm afraid my father is lost to iron triangle propaganda.
I can't understand why so many people don't "get" supply & demand. Unless you can affect either supply or demand, you're not going to have a significant effect on prices. Unless there is hoarding, speculators have no effect on supply, and the only effect they have on demand is opposite to the direction of their speculation.
Thanks shargash,
That NY times article may not be primary but it sounds as if they are reading from primary sources ... maybe:)
(Actually though my question to Jaymax and a similar question to yartrebo (below)sprang more from amusement that the two diametrically opposed views came so close together on the thread without blows being struck).
Here's a link to the EIA web page where each week they report the stocks of crude oil being stored at major facilities. You'll notice there's not an excessive amount for this time of year. I suppose there could be some stocks that aren't being accounted for, but you'd have to find them.
Well the largest inventory is probably floating around or in transit in tankers. It is possible to change where ships go and how long it takes to get there to manipulate prices. Here's an interesting article.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aQZcc1kgLb8k&refer=h...
By the way, I'm with Smith(above) all the way to $140. Woohoo! What a rush.
At least we get to fight al'Cia in Iraq, now that they finally got a foothold. Hopefully, McSame will steer us on a clear path to victory, or something.
I'm working on a chart that shows the history of actual storage of oil in the U.S. and it's relation to oil price. It sheds some light on this "speculation" thing. Rising inventories are billed as meaning nobody wants any oil and any price increase is pure speculation . But history shows that oil storage goes up when there's a shortage and everyone wants it. This happened big time in the 70s. It is hardly happening at all now when we have the mother of all shortages setting in. The difference between price run up and storage patterns between the 70s, the Gulf War, and now is ridiculous.
I too am baffled to understand how futures traders could significantly alter the market price of a commodity -- aside from moving it around in some kind of range based on fundamentals of supply and demand.
That's why I've been thinking there must be some actual physical hoarding going on now. Increasing inventory of this raw material seems very logical for a company whose business depends on having absolutely reliable sources of petroleum products, including companies who use petroleum products as feedstocks for plastics and chemicals.
Storing some spare quantity of the stuff is exactly what I would do if I were in that position, and was starting to worry about supply interruptions.
If there is in fact hoarding going on, I don't think it is being done for the purpose of turning a profit. It is usually only possible to profit from commodity price changes by trading contracts rather than the physical material. That's because the net profit for buying actual product low and selling it high would likely be quite small compared with the expense of doing so. Consider that one would have to acquire (or more likely, build) storage facilities, ship the product to the storage location, and then staff and maintain and protect that location, and finally ship the product on to its ultimate purchaser. In the face of such expenses, even a comparatively large increase in price would not be enough to gain much direct monetary profit from physical storage.
In summary, I think we are seeing some panic buying and hoarding, not for speculative profit but rather in pursuit of supply security. With the world market for oil as tight as it is now, even a very small increment of geographically widespread hoarding might move prices sharply higher.
Of course if supply later loosens up, such hoarding would contribute to increased volatility on the down side, too, since companies might then draw down their stored supplies for a while, rather than buying new product.
Or we are simply seeing importers bidding for declining net oil exports.